Zone1 Let's Talk About "Merit"

[justoffal]

Diversity is only valuable when there is no diversity of merit. Nothing is achieved by lowering standards for Negroes. Affirmative action reinforces prejudice against Negroes because everyone can see how poorly beneficiaries of affirmative action perform.

Bingo....lowering the bar dimishes the final product..

If you want to produce competency you do not lower the bar. If your aim is to ignore progress and to award mediocrity then you pretend that 2.8 is actually 4.5. Don't try that when you're paying for your groceries though.

 

[IM2]

Yeah... legacy admission is stupid.... Not sure how you can fix that. But then again can't Harvard do as they please? Or does the student loan program give give the government a way in?

Jo

If Harvard can do what it pleases that means they can admit by using Affirmative Action for non white students.

 

[IM2]

Low IQ whites keep arguing a false claim about IQ that has been long debunked.

So how about we debate the topic or stay the hell out of this thread?

 

[Coyote]

Very interesting
....

What other metrics do you think should be used? This is a sincere question. Not looking for an argument I'm looking for some details.


Jo

Student’s typically have to write an essay and they come for an interview. That is used as part of the overall evaluation. Other metrics: what organizations or activities has the student been involved in (indications of leadership or community involvement), economic status, ethnic background, first generation student, even what part of the country they are from in order to assemble a diverse covert. GPA is the main metric, but within the small range of top GPA’s, you can look at these other things.

 

[justoffal]

If Harvard can do what it pleases that means they can admit by using Affirmative Action for non white students.

Oh I agree... Look I must confess that one aspect I did not look at was the social merit aside from the intellectual merit. Asian people are not known for social interface or generosity.
It's probably part of the cost of growing up in a merit-based household where you don't eat unless you bring home an A.

 

[Lisa558]

If Harvard can do what it pleases that means they can admit by using Affirmative Action for non white students.

Not if the SCOTUS rules that discriminating by race is unconstitutional. Announcement within the next couple of weeks.

 

[IM2]

Oh I agree... Look I must confess that one aspect I did not look at was the social merit aside from the intellectual merit. Asian people are not known for social interface or generosity.
It's probably part of the cost of growing up in a merit-based household where you don't eat unless you bring home an A.

There are no more Asian households where you don't get to eat unless you bring home an A than there is any any race. Whites generally have not had to be concerned about merit.

 

[JoeB131]

You mention your imaginary friend whenever you lose an argument with me. Use the race card, instead. It is less salacious

Hey, man, whatever he did to you, I'm sure you were totally in the right.

OK big guy. Draw attention to a method that worked.

As soon as we try one, I will.

It seems we want to abort anything that causes progress, like affirmative action and busing. Some of you are happy with things the way they are.

 

[JoeB131]

Not if the SCOTUS rules that discriminating by race is unconstitutional. Announcement within the next couple of weeks.

Then all they have to do is change their criteria to find other ways to get them in.

The only thing SCOTUS is doing is ruining its own reputation by overturning previous precedents.

 

[IM2]

"Diversity is only valuable when there is no diversity of merit. Nothing is achieved by lowering standards for Negroes."

This thread has shown evidence of standards being lowered for white legacy students.

 

[justoffal]

There are no more Asian households where you don't get to eat unless you bring home an A than there is any any race. Whites generally have not had to be concerned about merit.

I disagree.... Especially if we're talking about households that have migrated.
To say that whites have not had to be concerned with merit is disingenuous and completely dishonest. When 98% of the applicants were white other white people certainly had to be concerned with merit. Also as far as wealthy people buying education for their children by contributing to the institution I don't think that is hindered by any particular skin color group. There are plenty of African Nationals, Saudi Nationals, Russian Nationals.. who come from worthy and wealthy political families that hardly make the academic grade but are there anyway. WPI.... An institution that's easily on a par with Harvard is loaded with them.

I am willing to consider that blacks as a class have been disadvantaged for decades and are now culturally hindered insofar as highlighting academics in the household so I certainly am aware some exceptions personally. In my opinion the current and worst enemy of a young black person is not the white society that surrounds him/her but the black anti-society that claims to coddle and care for him/her.

 

[IM2]

Lisa, your drivel is not worth reading. You appear to only be advocating for the exclusion of blacks from equal opportunity. You ignore evidence presented to you that shows that standards are lowered for more whites based on legacy and that your precious Asiand are not being excluded from elitr colleges while having higher scores than the only group you have an opposition to... blacks. Coyote has a heart of gold for trying to be civil with you. I don't. All you're doing is showing everybody that you have an intense hatred of blacks. And that's saying it nicely and within zone 1 rules.

 

[JoeB131]

There are no more Asian households where you don't get to eat unless you bring home an A than there is any any race. Whites generally have not had to be concerned about merit.

Although that is probably a gross exaggeration (I'm currently dating an Asian woman, and frankly, getting them to NOT feed you is the trick.) perhaps holding your children to standards could be something black families SHOULD emulate.

Heck, growing up, I was punished frequently for not performing well in class or otherwise causing trouble with the nuns... I didn't like it, but it probably made me a more disciplined person.

So I'm the first one to take Lisa and Hector to task for their bigotries... but at the end of the day, they aren't going to solve the problems, and frankly, neither am I. I've got too many of my own to worry about. If you have one screwup in your midst making the rest of you look bad, do something about that screwup.

 

[IM2]

I disagree.... Especially if we're talking about households that have migrated.
To say that whites have not had to be concerned with merit is disingenuous and completely dishonest. When 98% of the applicants were white other white people certainly had to be concerned with merit. Also as far as wealthy people buying education for their children by contributing to the institution I don't think that is hindered by any particular skin color group. There are plenty of African Nationals, Saudi Nationals, Russian Nationals.. who come from worthy and wealthy political families that hardly make the academic grade but are there anyway. WPI.... An institution that's easily on a par with Harvard is loaded with them.

I am willing to consider the blacks as a class have been disadvantaged for decades and are now culturally hindered and insofar as highlighting academics in the household. In my opinion worst enemy of a young black person is not the white society that surrounds him but the black anti-society that claims coddle and care for him.

No, it is historically correct. Whites made laws excluding other races which eliminates the claim that merit mattered.

 

[justoffal]

No, it is historically correct. Whites made laws excluding other races which eliminates the claim that merit mattered.

Ahhh....ok...I understand that a little better now. Yes that certainty was the case.

 

[Hector12]

As soon as we try one, I will.

Why should we keep wasting money in efforts that have always failed, when there is no evidence that anything will be successful?

 

[justoffal]

Although that is probably a gross exaggeration (I'm currently dating an Asian woman, and frankly, getting them to NOT feed you is the trick.) perhaps holding your children to standards could be something black families SHOULD emulate.

Heck, growing up, I was punished frequently for not performing well in class or otherwise causing trouble with the nuns... I didn't like it, but it probably made me a more disciplined person.

So I'm the first one to take Lisa and Hector to task for their bigotries... but at the end of the day, they aren't going to solve the problems, and frankly, neither am I. I've got too many of my own to worry about. If you have one screwup in your midst making the rest of you look bad, do something about that screwup.

For years I had Vietnamese tenants who practiced that strict rule. Maybe they didn't always withhold meals but they sure as hell withheld everything else from a child who they felt was underperforming. I would often times have to feed the kids for that reason.

 

[Lisa558]

Lisa, your drivel is not worth reading. You appear to only be advocating for the exclusion of blacks from equal opportunity. You ignore evidence presented to you that shows that standards are lowered for more whites based on legacy and that your precious Asiand are not being excluded from elitr colleges while having higher scores than the only group you have an opposition to... blacks. Coyote has a heart of gold for trying to be civil with you. I don't. All you're doing is showing everybody that you have an intense hatred of blacks. And that's saying it nicely and within zone 1 rules.

That’s calling me racist, and disallowed.

And saying that admissions should be race-blind isn’t excluding blacks from equal opportunity. To the contrary, when Affirmative Action is ruled unconstitutional, whites will have equal opportunity - and not be discriminated against due to their skin color.

 

[justoffal]

Why should we keep wasting money in efforts that have always failed, when there is no evidence that anything will be successful?

Exactly...."the soft bigotry of low expectations" .. .

Jo

 

[justoffal]

Then all they have to do is change their criteria to find other ways to get them in.

The only thing SCOTUS is doing is ruining its own reputation by overturning previous precedents.

If the previous precedent was not based on the Constitution then it's the wrong precedent. You seem to be forgetting that the job of scoutus is to enforce the Constitution. If you say the Constitution is racist well that's another issue. Real question here is whether or not race should be a considered Factor in college admissions. Strictly constitutionally speaking it should not be. Should the college or institution decide to turn down all government help then perhaps they can continue to consider race without any consequences.