CDZ Let's run a little experiment. Topic: Paying for College

[Burgermeister]

The four year degree thing is overkill for most careers. The requirement for electives is ridiculous. It's not like there is some standard old school liberal arts minimum - rhetoric, logic, etc. That might be different. These kids are taking whatever class is easiest to check the box. I am familiar with engineering schools and the jobs that engineers get. If we use 10% of what we learned in four years in our actual job, that would be an exception. For example, process control engineers don't need organic chemistry to learn how to program control systems but they mostly come from chemical engineers, and they all have to take organic chemistry. Sure, there should be a base of knowledge, and I do believe that college performance is used to rate candidates general aptitude, but it is a ridiculously expensive way to do that. Seems like the whole system should be changed up. Go to college for 1-2 years for more general background, get an entry level paid intern job for a year doing something you think you are interested in, then go back to college for a year - on the company dime in exchange for an employment commitment - for specialized learning. Colleges would have to come up with general and specialization paths and compete for the business of private employees.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I also have no childern in the school system, and I am happy to pay my part in there education. Educated children are much more likely to become a benifit to the country, As apposed to joining a gang or other means to feed & shelter them selfs.

It's really just too bad you were not educated.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Your so far off topic it’s no use continuing this discussion further.

Actually my point is spot on. If you don't get it then perhaps you are the one who is failing.

Let me close with K-12

I don't care what you wish to "close with". Be gone.

 

[JoeMoma]

It's really just too bad you were not educated.

Funny coming from a "Math Teacher" that does not know the difference between positive/negative number and odd/even numbers.

Is Zero a Positive Number?

In my view, it's a matter of the point of reference. Well, look at it this way: zero is both a starting point and an absolute point: as a starting point, one may count up or down from there so in strict numerical terms, zero is neither positive or negative, it is a null integer; such as...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[Dragonlady]

Yep government involvement messed it up. There are also just way too many people borrowing money for useless degrees.

The cost of the degrees is way out of whack with wages. A social work degree from the top school in the USA costs $60,000 per year for 4 years. $240,0000. A job in social work pays $40,000 per year.

When I applied to business school, tuition was $2000 per year and starting jobs paid $15,000 to $20,000 per year.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

The cost of the degrees is way out of whack with wages. A social work degree from the top school in the USA costs $60,000 per year for 4 years. $240,0000. A job in social work pays $40,000 per year.

When I applied to business school, tuition was $2000 per year and starting jobs paid $15,000 to $20,000 per year.

It definitely feels like that. The worst part is that Boomers are still inhabiting the jobs and Millennials and Gen Z are having a tough time getting in the door. We're all getting closer to retiring so I'm hopeful that in a few years the Millennials and Gen Zers will have more opportunities.

The decrease of state funds to universities and what appears to be a sort of "bloat" of administrators has led to spiraling tuition and at the same time the brilliant administrators at universities have decided the the OPTIMUM fix is to slash costs by treating the instructors and faculty as near chattel or day workers. The increase in use of temp faculty who are struggling to put together a livable wage and even then without benefits is only making things worse.

I fear we've lost our way in regards to the university systems in the US.

 

[Captain Caveman]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

Every man is the artisan of his own fortune. So anyone who wants to go to college, they should do so and pay for it.

Or in Latin, "Faber est suae quisque fortunae"

 

[ding]

I can guarantee you that the teachers and instructors are NOT experiencing greed. They are just hoping to make a barely-acceptable living.

If you wish for them to give away all their value while you clearly did not is not an acceptable "paradigm shift".

Crooks. The whole lot of them.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Crooks. The whole lot of them.

Any reason you feel this way?

 

[Dragonlady]

It definitely feels like that. The worst part is that Boomers are still inhabiting the jobs and Millennials and Gen Z are having a tough time getting in the door. We're all getting closer to retiring so I'm hopeful that in a few years the Millennials and Gen Zers will have more opportunities.

The decrease of state funds to universities and what appears to be a sort of "bloat" of administrators has led to spiraling tuition and at the same time the brilliant administrators at universities have decided the the OPTIMUM fix is to slash costs by treating the instructors and faculty as near chattel or day workers. The increase in use of temp faculty who are struggling to put together a livable wage and even then without benefits is only making things worse.

I fear we've lost our way in regards to the university systems in the US.

It’s all about profit. And just like your health care system, you have the most expensive systems in the world, and you’re getting the least for you money.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

It’s all about profit. And just like your health care system, you have the most expensive systems in the world, and you’re getting the least for you money.

Sadly that is becoming more and more true. I have several friends who work in academe and their stories sound to me very much like my experiences in industry. Americans can't help but "businessfy" anything and everything and then maximize profits. Ugh.

 

[Leo123]

The purpose of this sociological experiment is to see if Americans are capable of thinking, collaborating and innovating together any more.

Let's start with this particular problem: College has become incredibly expensive and it's saddling students with ridiculous debt from Day One as they enter the workforce. So, where are we right now on this issue?

• Some want to address this by simply wiping out current college debt, or decreasing it to some degree, with taxpayer money
• Some are annoyed by this, such as parents (*ahem*) and students who have paid their way by the rules and will be cheated

So what I'm going to do is toss out a few "IWIWC's", "I wonder if we could...", and let's see if we could get anywhere. Important note: I'm sure we know that this is how businesses often address problems, by tossing out ideas from all directions, massaging them, changing them, tweaking them, throwing some of them out. And, just as importantly, when it sees a problem with an idea, it doesn't just give up and dismiss the whole thing So, rather than running with our normal impulse to apply band-aids and not think things through:

• I wonder if we could leverage American Capitalism to effectively address this
• I wonder if we could have employers engaged in the process, with the value to them being better and deeper talent pools
• I wonder if we could incorporate some kind of tax incentives to participate in the process
• I wonder if we could find a way to attach junior colleges to this process, for those professions that don't need a full four year education
• I wonder if we could utilize employer groups and/or college groups to somehow organize this by industry or subject matter area
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employers who have educated employees, just to have the employees leave
• I wonder if we could provide protection to employees so that the employer cannot go too far with expectations after their investment
• I wonder if we could find a way to keep the kids learning post-employment to improve their skills by incentivizing their employers

Okay, there ya go. After I typed the first line, the rest came to me as I was typing. Tiny little ideas that mean nothing on their own, but could be a germ. Let's see if anything constructive happens.

A lot of Colleges have been taken over by the PC far left. They are no longer institutions of learning they are rubber stamps for useless would be lawyers and political hacks. There are a few and even on line colleges where one can get a far better education. Unless, of course, one wants to be a politician in which case Harvard is their spring board but that's about all it is anymore.

 

[Leo123]

Elon Musk dropped out of Stanford. Apparently he didn't need college to teach him how to think, what to think, how to make billions, start his own space force, create Tesla, buy a controlling share of Twitter and set up a global satellite internet system.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Elon Musk dropped out of Stanford. Apparently he didn't need college to teach him how to think, what to think, how to make billions, start his own space force, create Tesla, buy a controlling share of Twitter and set up a global satellite internet system.

While his achievements are impressive and he is one of a cadre of famous "college dropouts" there are probably thousands of others who fail to make that leap. Some like Elizabeth Holmes who should have stayed in college and some who might have had the spark of a solid tech idea that never took off and are now Uber drivers.

My dad came up out of the Depression. Pulled out of school in junior high to work on the farm and wound up working his way up into management in the technology sector. But he did that at a time when it was still POSSIBLE. He was also ridiculously smart. I used to joke with him that I wasn't smart enough to make it without college.

But college is neither a bad thing nor an always good thing. It depends on the person and what they are not only able but allowed to do that can make the difference.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Elon Musk dropped out of Stanford. Apparently he didn't need college to teach him how to think, what to think, how to make billions, start his own space force, create Tesla, buy a controlling share of Twitter and set up a global satellite internet system.

Wrong answer!

Musk dropped out of Stanford's doctoral program. He had two bachelor's degrees from the University of Pennsylvania in physics and economics.

 

[Dragonlady]

Elon Musk dropped out of Stanford. Apparently he didn't need college to teach him how to think, what to think, how to make billions, start his own space force, create Tesla, buy a controlling share of Twitter and set up a global satellite internet system.

No, Elon Musk just needed obscenely wealthy parents to bankroll him.

Those of us without the advantage of obscenely wealthy parents need a good education.

 

[ding]

Any reason you feel this way?

What part of university elites are holding knowledge hostage didn’t you understand?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

What part of university elites are holding knowledge hostage didn’t you understand?

That makes no sense whatsoever, ding!

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

What part of university elites are holding knowledge hostage didn’t you understand?

About 80% of it. You seem to have this image of faculty as living in luxury. That's rare these days.

I knew people who were cobbling together "jobs" by working at several universities around Boston as temp instructors. They had NO BENEFITS and were barely making a living. I have a couple good friends, husband and wife, who work as faculty at college and they do NOT make big bucks.

You may not know what the university landscape is like these days. Yes there are a few people who make a good living at a university, but the meat and potatoes folks, the folks who make it run, the FACULTY are usually not.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Wrong answer!

Musk dropped out of Stanford's doctoral program. He had two bachelor's degrees from the University of Pennsylvania in physics and economics.

OK. So that makes the original point the other poster made about the value of college non-applicable to Musk.

Dropping out of a doctorate doesn't have the big of an effect.

So we can stop using Musk as some sort of avatar of "college isn't necessary". Clearly college was a boon for him.