Let’s Roll Back The Tax Cuts Instead

[Mexicano]

A sudden boost in productivity and consumption... which is really a hard trick to pull off:

Well, cut spending by 20%, taxes by 10% and regulations by 50%.

Toddster,
And how exactly will you ensure corporate profits are actually invested (e.g in factories, warehouses, and distribution chains) and not funneled into crypto, the stock market, derivatives, or money markets?
As I told you the problem is most investment is going into the FIRE sector.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Toddster,
And how exactly will you ensure corporate profits are actually invested (e.g in factories, warehouses, and distribution chains) and not funneled into crypto, the stock market, derivatives, or money markets?
As I told you the problem is most investment is going into the FIRE sector.

And how exactly will you ensure corporate profits are actually invested

You're right!!!!

The only way to make sure money is invested properly is to give it to the government.

As I told you the problem is most investment is going into the FIRE sector.

Did you ever find any evidence that the FIRE sector doesn't produce anything?

 

[Mexicano]

And how exactly will you ensure corporate profits are actually invested

You're right!!!!

The only way to make sure money is invested properly is to give it to the government.

As I told you the problem is most investment is going into the FIRE sector.

Did you ever find any evidence that the FIRE sector doesn't produce anything?

... I thought the burden of proof was in your side. Ok , I can prove you most of the FIRE sector doesn't produce anything.
There are two exceptions:
1) New Housing
2) IPO ( initial public offerings)
As for the rest :
You buy land.... the land was already there, you are just exchanging a title.
An existing house... the house had already an owner and already existed.
Insurance... you acquire a guarantee, a contract. No service is produced until you get sick ( and then only if it is a medical insurance)
Stock options ( excluding IPOs), it's just a change of the owner of the stock.
Money market ... you are just swapping one currency for another.
Derivatives ... Yuck... It is just a contract tied to an index or the price of a commodity, money gets swapped, but no actual goods or services.

That makes up about 90% of the FIRE sector.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

... I thought the burden of proof was in your side. Ok , I can prove you most of the FIRE sector doesn't produce anything.
There are two exceptions:
1) New Housing
2) IPO ( initial public offerings)
As for the rest :
You buy land.... the land was already there, you are just exchanging a title.
An existing house... the house had already an owner and already existed.
Insurance... you acquire a guarantee, a contract. No service is produced until you get sick ( and then only if it is a medical insurance)
Stock options ( excluding IPOs), it's just a change of the owner of the stock.
Money market ... you are just swapping one currency for another.
Derivatives ... Yuck... It is just a contract tied to an index or the price of a commodity, money gets swapped, but no actual goods or services.

That makes up about 90% of the FIRE sector.

I thought the burden of proof was in your side

Not for your claim.

That makes up about 90% of the FIRE sector.

How much does the government think the FIRE sector contributes to GDP?
Why are they wrong?

 

[Mexicano]

I thought the burden of proof was in your side

Not for your claim.

That makes up about 90% of the FIRE sector.

How much does the government think the FIRE sector contributes to GDP?
Why are they wrong?

I am puzzled by your questions.

What the government thinks about the fire sector is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that swapping a shares or any other financial asset doesn't create wealth.
I can't read minds, I don't know what the government thinks about the FIRE sector or if the image they have of this sector is right or wrong.
Those questions are completely irrelevant to the statement I made: The FIRE sector doesn't contribute to production.

GDP and production are not the same:
You may engage with your partner in a massage each charging $100 ... that counts as gdp. but you have produced nothing, and the contribution for production is marginal at best ( maybe the next day you will be in a better mood and be more productive ).
Building a house , farming a field, building machinery , constructing a road, building a hospital, that counts as production. When things get produced the total wealth increases.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I am puzzled by your questions.

What the government thinks about the fire sector is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact that swapping a shares or any other financial asset doesn't create wealth.
I can't read minds, I don't know what the government thinks about the FIRE sector or if the image they have of this sector is right or wrong.
Those questions are completely irrelevant to the statement I made: The FIRE sector doesn't contribute to production.

GDP and production are not the same:
You may engage with your partner in a massage each charging $100 ... that counts as gdp. but you have produced nothing, and the contribution for production is marginal at best ( maybe the next day you will be in a better mood and be more productive ).
Building a house , farming a field, building machinery , constructing a road, building a hospital, that counts as production. When things get produced the total wealth increases.

What the government thinks about the fire sector is irrelevant.

You claimed the FIRE sector is non-productive.
The government thinks it produces a decent portion of our GDP.
Why are you right and they are wrong?
Aside from your simplistic claims about what is or isn't productive?

It doesn't change the fact that swapping a shares or any other financial asset doesn't create wealth.

Cool story. Any evidence?

Those questions are completely irrelevant to the statement I made: The FIRE sector doesn't contribute to production.

Most production I've seen involved selling shares, selling bonds, selling commercial paper or taking out a loan from a bank at some point. It also involved insuring buildings, equipment and employees. Buying or leasing land and or buildings. How much production can you point to that didn't use anything from the FIRE sector?

If the FIRE sector doesn't do anything useful, how do they manage to post such high earnings? They can't force you to use them, can they?

You may engage with your partner in a massage each charging $100 ... that counts as gdp. but you have produced nothing,

Massages are pretty cool. I think I get value any time I get a massage.
Why shouldn't that service be included in GDP? Or the service of buying and selling financial assets? Or the service of providing loans or insurance?

What good or service do you produce?

 

[Mexicano]

What the government thinks about the fire sector is irrelevant.

You claimed the FIRE sector is non-productive.
The government thinks it produces a decent portion of our GDP.
Why are you right and they are wrong?
Aside from your simplistic claims about what is or isn't productive?

It doesn't change the fact that swapping a shares or any other financial asset doesn't create wealth.

Cool story. Any evidence?

Those questions are completely irrelevant to the statement I made: The FIRE sector doesn't contribute to production.

Most production I've seen involved selling shares, selling bonds, selling commercial paper or taking out a loan from a bank at some point. It also involved insuring buildings, equipment and employees. Buying or leasing land and or buildings. How much production can you point to that didn't use anything from the FIRE sector?

If the FIRE sector doesn't do anything useful, how do they manage to post such high earnings? They can't force you to use them, can they?

You may engage with your partner in a massage each charging $100 ... that counts as gdp. but you have produced nothing,

Massages are pretty cool. I think I get value any time I get a massage.
Why shouldn't that service be included in GDP? Or the service of buying and selling financial assets? Or the service of providing loans or insurance?

What good or service do you produce?

Last try Toddster
The economy has to flows :
- The monetary
- Goods and services.
Usually when a transaction occurs money flows in one way and goods and services in the oposite way.
Money is not actual wealth, it is just a contract, a note, an IOU that gives you purchasing rights to goods and services.

GDP measures economic activity , not production. Most economies admit it has flaws and that it is just an approximation of production.
Insurance and real estate do count as part of gdp.
Financial transactions are not counted ( only the fees collected by the financial institution).

Now, if you have ever wondered why China has been growing at 8% per year during the last 20 years while the US averages 2.5%, that's the reason: they make sure a good portion of economy goes into production or distribution. They do have a problem with real state, but so far they have managed to keep it controlled and avoided a recession.
China's industrial capacity is at least two times bigger than that of the US ( per capita US production is still larger because China's population is 4 times bigger).

My job as computer scientist and consultant is a non-productive: I just manage information.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

We can never cut government spending, ever?

Not as long as people keep voting in the duopoly.

 

[EMH]

Not as long as people keep voting in the duopoly.

And the GOP voters continue to vote for big spending big government Faux "News" endorsed Zionist Fascists...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Last try Toddster
The economy has to flows :
- The monetary
- Goods and services.
Usually when a transaction occurs money flows in one way and goods and services in the oposite way.
Money is not actual wealth, it is just a contract, a note, an IOU that gives you purchasing rights to goods and services.

GDP measures economic activity , not production. Most economies admit it has flaws and that it is just an approximation of production.
Insurance and real estate do count as part of gdp.
Financial transactions are not counted ( only the fees collected by the financial institution).

Now, if you have ever wondered why China has been growing at 8% per year during the last 20 years while the US averages 2.5%, that's the reason: they make sure a good portion of economy goes into production or distribution. They do have a problem with real state, but so far they have managed to keep it controlled and avoided a recession.
China's industrial capacity is at least two times bigger than that of the US ( per capita US production is still larger because China's population is 4 times bigger).

My job as computer scientist and consultant is a non-productive: I just manage information.

GDP measures economic activity, not production.

Gross Domestic Product doesn't measure Production?

It counts all of the output generated within the borders of a country.

GDP is composed of goods and services produced for sale in the market and also includes some nonmarket production, such as defense or education services provided by the government

.

Gross Domestic Product: An Economy’s All

When it is growing, especially if inflation is not a problem, workers and businesses are generally better off than when it is not

www.imf.org

My job as computer scientist and consultant is a non-productive: I just manage information.

You don't provide a service? You're not adding value?

 

[Mexicano]

GDP measures economic activity, not production.

Gross Domestic Product doesn't measure Production?

It counts all of the output generated within the borders of a country.

GDP is composed of goods and services produced for sale in the market and also includes some nonmarket production, such as defense or education services provided by the government

.

Gross Domestic Product: An Economy’s All

When it is growing, especially if inflation is not a problem, workers and businesses are generally better off than when it is not

www.imf.org

My job as computer scientist and consultant is a non-productive: I just manage information.

You don't provide a service? You're not adding value?

I provide a "management" service. It is a job that serves mostly to distribute income. My contribution to output ( retail stores lately ) is marginal at best.
All services have a marginal contribution to "material" production.
And that's the difference from our viewpoints, when I say production I am mostly referring to "material production".
You can have more money, but if you don't increase material production you can't purchase more goods ( although you can hire more services ); in other words you remain materially poor.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I provide a "management" service. It is a job that serves mostly to distribute income. My contribution to output ( retail stores lately ) is marginal at best.
All services have a marginal contribution to "material" production.
And that's the difference from our viewpoints, when I say production I am mostly referring to "material production".
You can have more money, but if you don't increase material production you can't purchase more goods ( although you can hire more services ); in other words you remain materially poor.

So, you're using the 18th Century definition. Ok.

 

[Mexicano]

So, you're using the 18th Century definition. Ok.

A nuanced version of it, yes. Material goods come before services, if there is not enough food and shelter for everyone what's the point of having top-notch medical ( or financial ) services?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

A nuanced version of it, yes. Material goods come before services, if there is not enough food and shelter for everyone what's the point of having top-notch medical ( or financial ) services?

Once we have those, and pretty much all but the addicted and mentally ill do,
services are pretty nice too.

 

[Mexicano]

Once we have those, and pretty much all but the addicted and mentally ill do,
services are pretty nice too.

Housing prices are too high, that's part of the speculative bubble
Healthcare has good quality, but it is too expensive. The same goes for college education: top-notch education system, but too expensive.
The US has more than enough food, but the whole southwest needs some serious investment in infrastructure to cope with the ongoing drought.
- I don't want to get into a discussion of whether it is caused by global warming or not. There's a drought and something has to be done about it.
It has outsourced a large chunk of its industry and now it imports too many manufactured goods; it is not an urgent problem, but it will be a problem as the dollar looses its reserve currency status in the next two decades.
Finally, it has a urban sprawl problem that translates into car-centric cities... again , not a problem in the mid-term; as long as it remains self-sufficient in gasoline and diesel production, but oil is not infinite.

I do feel these problems will not go away by simply lowering taxes or be solved on time by the market (when the US was not self-sufficient in fuel the only change was more efficient cars). So that's my take on the tax reduction policy.

 

[sealybobo]

The US national debt is a product of conservatives’ tax cuts and ill convinced wars.
View attachment 778969

So, Ms Klobucher what’s to negotiate?
A review of stock buy back transactions correlates well with GOP tax cuts, not with corporate business investments:
View attachment 778975

Charted: The Rise of Stock Buybacks Over 20 Years

Unlike the last two downturns, stock buybacks could hit a record $1.3T in 2022. We chart their growth over the last two decades.

advisor.visualcapitalist.com

If the goal is to pay our bills and reduce the deficit, reverse recent tax cuts. McCarthy’s proposal is to transfer the national debt to the poor and the nation’s wealth to the 1%.



There is noting to negotiate, and President Biden is right to refuse to negotiate.

Daily Kos

Daily Kos is a progressive news site that fights for democracy by giving our audience information and resources to win elections and impact government. Our coverage is assiduously factual, ethical, and unapologetically liberal. We amplify what we think is important, with the proper context—not...

m.dailykos.com

The free stuff, and hand outs to the 1% and corporations is breaking us.

Don't just roll back Trump's tax breaks and Bush's tax breaks

Roll Back the Reagan Tax Cuts | Common Dreams

Our bridges are falling apart (among other things), and its Ronald Reagan's fault. A few hours before the bridge collapsed in Minnesota, a news release landed (among hundreds) in my email inbox. It was from the right-wing "Heartland Institute" and a Minnesota conservative group calling itself...

www.commondreams.org

 

[Flash]

Sure thing Moon Bats.

This country isn't taxed enough so lets be real idiots and give the goddamn politicians more of our money to waste and make them richer. After all, a stupid bureaucrat, whose boss is a corrupt politician elected by special interest groups are much better at spending the money I earned than myself, right? I mean I may only want to use the money I make on taking care of my family while the politicans would use the money to provide welfare to Illegals so the Illegals will vote to keep them in office.

Sounds like a great idea.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Yes, roll back the Trump tax cuts

 

[jbrownson0831]

Apparently math, charts, facts, and relevant information aren’t your strong points.

The redistribution already happened. Go get an adult, and get them to explain the graphs to you. Apparently even pictures isn’t enough for you.

The people that actually work for a living, and create anything of value want their money back.

Kookbot your mind works backwards.

 

[jbrownson0831]

Yes, roll back the Trump tax cuts

Instead lets deport slow horses.