Let's have an informal Poll

[jimnyc]

Whether you agree with our governments actions or not, our troops are in Iraq with the belief that they are representing ALL OF US and our very freedoms that allow us to disagree with our governement and the same for the Iraqi citizens.

How many of you agree with SLClemens that our soldiers are "suckers" or "uneducated from the midwest" or "deluded"?

This isn't a war vs. anti-war poll, just whether or not you think the namecalling and disrespect to our soldiers is warranted or not.

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Whether you agree with our governments actions or not, our troops are in Iraq with the belief that they are representing ALL OF US and our very freedoms that allow us to disagree with our governement and the same for the Iraqi citizens.

How many of you agree with SLClemens that our soldiers are "suckers" or "uneducated from the midwest" or "deluded"?

This isn't a war vs. anti-war poll, just whether or not you think the namecalling and disrespect to our soldiers is warranted or not.

And a poll here will be like soooo representative of the population at large, lol.

Let me re-quote, in full, a response to which no few have responded:

"I find it quite interesting what does and doesn't insult warmongers and nationalists. For instance, at the peak of the fighting, Congress passed $14.6bn in cuts to veterans' benefits. I found this a profound insult to our fighting men and women, but very few others did. In the thread http://www.usmessageboard.com/forum...=&threadid=1014 you expressed ignorance of this and then didn't seem to have interest and / or time to discuss it further. But apparently it's not a great insult to do anything less than ensure that our soldiers have the best possible health care and educational benefits after they've endured the horrors of war. Why is this, I wonder? I think it's because doing so would highlight just how horrific war is on those doing the fighting ... and how expensive it is to us taxpayers ... that might take some wind out of the flag-wavers' sails and put a damper on the drums of war. It might make war seem like more of an absolute last resort.

What does seem deeply insulting to those who love a good war, however, is the notion that our men are fighting in vain, for causes other than they've come to believe, and for profits that they'll see little of and people who sat out the war in comfort will see much of. I'll refrain from trying to come up with a descriptive noun to characterize such people if it bothers you that much. Here, once again, I see some interesting parallels to Vietnam. It disturbed proponents of that war to no end that opponents called it a useless fight. Nixen's strategy for gaining continuing support was to praise the bravery of our troops (who in many cases proved incredibly brave) and condemn the atrocities of the North and Viet Cong, and also blame the media for informing us graphically (I wasn't around at the time but I've read a lot about it) how many of our young men were dying. This helped a critical majority take a very long time to realize that if we thought we were effectively fighting a communist threat rather than a vain ideological struggle, we were fighting for nothing. We're not unique in such hopeless endeavors. It certainly took the French a long time to realize that their men, conscripts, and les bonnes poires who volunteered because they were told they were glorifying their empire and effectively repressing terrorism, were doing nothing of the sort in North Africa.

Thankfully, I get the impression that many of our soldiers in Iraq do not match such a characterization. Many of them, I think, see that far from preventing terrorism they are bringing it on. Many of them, regardless of what they think about terrorism or oil, are trying their best to make a Iraq a better, safer, more dignified place, and this is to be commended. But sadly, I do hear the odd one say "this is for 911." If they really think that all their hard work and bravery is to make our lives safer rather than ensuring that the thirsty American economy has an increasing supply of cheap oil, they're sadly mistaken, and have bought into a terrible myth. What insults people about framing the argument that way, I think, is that it implicates the war's proponents in their needless deaths and injuries, to say nothing of Iraqis. It suggests that people - in this case our fellow citizens - have to die to support our affluence.

If we really want to dignify our fighting men and women we should stop trying to delude them about what they've been fighting for (and stop changing the reasons for war), pay up the necessary money for shorter rotations, give them straight answers about how long they'll have to serve, employ tactics that give Iraqis less cause to hate them, and make sure there's health care, educational and retraining opportunities, and psychological support for them when they leave the military and find themselves faced with the numerous problems that veterans of wars always face.

It might also be nice if some of our leaders actually visit the wounded and go to some of their funerals.


"Thankfully, though, some of our soldiers have the guts to tell it like it is, unlike Blair and Hoon, suckers extraordinaire.

For the record, though, Cheney does not see my point of view, and is by no means a sucker. I'm sure he has friends I'd view in the same light."

 

[Joan]

Baby killers? Suckers? I think not! The suckers are the ones that go around spouting out this shit! These boys deserve the utmost respect and gratitude of the entire nation! I for one, salute them all!

 

[jimnyc]

And what in your response gives you the right to show disrespect and level namecalling against the soldiers? Nothing, idiot.

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
And what in your response gives you the right to show disrespect and level namecalling against the soldiers? Nothing, idiot.

I should mention that my first response above was to Nighttrain on a different thread. I still stand amazed that the same people get upset by my suggesting that our soldiers are getting used don't seem to mind cuts to veterans' benefits that much or get too worked up about Guld War Syndrome. This just seems to confirm to me that our military, like those of every other nation, is ultimately just a tool for politicians - in our case a select few in the executive branch - to use or misuse.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
I should mention that my first response above was to Nighttrain on a different thread. I still stand amazed that the same people get upset by my suggesting that our soldiers are getting used don't seem to mind cuts to veterans' benefits that much or get too worked up about Guld War Syndrome. This just seems to confirm to me that our military, like those of every other nation, is ultimately just a tool for politicians - in our case a select few in the executive branch - to use or misuse.

I'll repeat myself for the intellectually challenged:

How does any of this give you the right to start namecalling about our soldiers?

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
I'll repeat myself for the intellectually challenged:

How does any of this give you the right to start namecalling about our soldiers?

I was referring to soldiers who think they're fighting a terrorist threat to America by invading and occupying Iraq. They're only increasing such a threat, and I believe that they're been largely fooled. They're not the only ones. I myself was a sucker to believe that Saddam probably had some WMDs before the invasion (though I never thought they were a threat to us). I was a sucker when I cheered on Gulf War I endlessly because I thought we'd make a democracy of Kuwait that would serve as a model to the Middle East - my support would have been much more subdued at best if I had known that we were just replacing a dreadful dictator with a greedy monarchy. I was a sucker when I bragged that Gulf War I caused only a few hundred casualties, having no idea what Gulf War Syndrome and the governments' lack of response to it would do to vets. And I was in very good company!

 

[eric]

Well SL,

I am glad that you know everything, I did too when I was younger, then I found out how wrong I was. I am sure you have read many books, maybe taken some political science courses, and believe you stand on high moral ground. I will say you seem to be a man of principle and for this I can not fault you, I too stand firm in my beliefs. In my view you are not a bad person, just misguided, but that is fine, many Americans are, so don't feel singled out. I'm sure you think you are doing this nation a service, but sometimes when we mean well we wind up doing harm.

Now to the matter at hand, none of us know the answers pertaining to Iraq, at this point it is all speculation and conjecture.
Just because WMD, ties to terrorism, and the like have not yet been found or proven does not mean they did not or do not exist. For it is much harder to prove the absolute existance of something than it is to question it. Let us add to this the fact that Iraq was, and still is, a source of instability in the region, and yes the region does hold resources which are crucial to the functioning and economies of many nations. So it becomes imperative that this region display a balance of power, something we know Saddam wanted all of. Can you honestly tell me his regime was not a treat in the region ? Of course they were ! The invasion of Kuwaite proved this. The very philosophy of the Bathist party was expansion.

Now the motives for war might not have been limited to these facts, and I am sure there were political and economics factors also fueling the decision for war. To think that they do not affect almost every policy that every nation makes would be naive.

We all have our opinions about this subject and how it should have been handled, and we all feel that we are right, but sometimes there is no right and wrong, black and white, to choose from. In this case numbers can not be feed into a computer and a definitive answer received. One mans opinions could be as right as the next, only time will tell.

So now we reach a point where we have to wait and see, but during this time we have men and women in harms way. Just as we do not have the answer neither do they, what they do know is that they are doing what their country asks of them, right or wrong in the end. They should be afforded the utmost respect, for as you pointed out, they are the people who are making the ultimate sacrifice. How in gods name can you say that these people are suckers or deluded for having opinions of their own. What makes you so sure that you are right and bestows up you the right of judgment.

I'm glad you care about veterans, so do I, and yes cuts to their benefits upset me greatly, so does their low salaries, and long deployments, but I don't just use these facts as a pawns in a debate, I actively try and effect change through campaign contributions,party participation, and voting. So do not for a minute accuse me of not careing. I hold our fighting men and women in the highest regard, re-read many of my posts.

One thing I will not dare do is to allow myself to feel that I am smarter or wiser than they and that their opinions do not carry the same weight as mine. Who knows in the end maybe they have it right and we are the suckers who are deluded !

 

[SLClemens]

Eric, thanks for your thoughtful reply. Perhaps you'll be happy to know that I was a flagwaver myself when I was younger.

As for the troops, those who believe they are there to prevent an upset in the balance of power I do not regard as suckers. I think they're wrong about this, but I can see how someone could make an argument that Saddam posed a regional threat and threat to his own people and therefore should be removed because of the *possible* regional threat he posed or for humanitarian reasons. But this isn't the war we were sold. If it was, there would probably more of the nations who supported Gulf War I alongside us. Rather it was sold by the hysteria of 9/11's wake. I don't have a great deal of respect for people who got sucked into this, and it saddens me that people would willingly sacrifice so much for such a futile cause as preventing another 9/11 by invading Iraq. We can reshuffle the deck of cards in the Middle East but cannot control where they fall, and temporary insecurity (or possibly longterm insecurity) will only make terrorism easier. Zero Americans that I'm aware of have died because of Iraq from 1992-2002, yet 430 soldiers have died there this year. This could be just the tip of the iceberg. We're not in this for terrorism, and I find it pathetic that our society has convinced people to fight thinking they are.

 

[janeeng]

I can't sit and comment too much on all the reasons of war, but I surely can comment on our soldiers. To me, it really doesn't matter what the soldier thinks, if they think they are in Iraq fighting for revenge on 9/11 or to bring Iraq out of the hands of Hussein, they are there doing something that neither you or I are doing, and may never had the balls to do. They had a choice, a choice to enlist or to be civilian. I have read so much crap on how the military is full of a bunch of losers, stupid, gay, couldn't do anything else, etc.. - well, maybe, but I can sure say from those that I have met, it sure turned them into a TRUE MAN/WOMAN!!! the respect they have, the polite way, the guts to do what they do, and you can't tell me that they went an enlisted and didn't know that a day can come that they had to fight in War.

I have a friend that was over during the Gulf War, he was close enough to it all, going into do one thing, disarm Hussein, those were the orders, until they were told to retreat - it was said that they wanted to do it the diplomatic way, anyway, from there, he remained in the army, to only be deployed to Bosnia and deal with all they did there, and beleive me, I heard the stories from over there too. I had the honor of meeting him and others one day, and I couldn't have met more proud soldiers, serving this country and not thinking twice about it. Today, he is still in the Army, and he could have retired from all of it, but chose to remain in the job he loves and that's serving for his Country. He had his views on things, things too he didn't agree on, but did what he was told to do without thinking twice about it. I asked him not long ago what he thought of 9/11 and Iraq, and he separated the two, and gave his views. I was amazed on his views, and we couldn't even begin to understand being we are here just watching the news, and believing that WE know the truth, the war is Oil, Republicans are no good, Libs are no good, this and that, but until you have actually talked to a person that is on the other side, fighting for us, and see the truth, who are we to think we know it all????? I think we have a lot to learn from those that have served, not from what we watch on TV - these are the people you want to get the TRUTH out of. A coward? Suckers? Uneducated??? I think a lot of us have a lot to learn!!! I admire and respect ALL of those that have given up their lives, and served for OUR Country, they aren't as stupid as some believe, I know this for FACT!!!!!!! how awful and heartless it is to think that some believe a soldier is a sucker, uneducated and a coward - remember that should there be an attack again on the US and bombs come flying here, who will save us? who will protect us? I suppose those idiots, suckers, cowards can!!!!!

 

[Bry]

And when all the good boys and girls made the ultimate sacrifice for the fatherland, and for the Fuhrer, they too were heroes, and the nation waved it's flags and talked of how good they were to do it.

Of course, it is an extreme example, but SLClemens and I (at least...) have reasons to believe that it is not unconnected. We are waging an expansionist war, a war for natural resources and for economic influence. Then too, the posts of people like ajwps would lead us to believe that our fight is not unrelated to race and creed... Of course it is a tragedy that our boys and girls are there risking and too often loosing their lives for the lies and misdirections of politicians. They do not deserve our ridicule, but they do certainly deserve our honest and active support in our demanding that they not be further subjected to the self-serving machinations of our political / corporate leaders.

All wars have had their soldiers. Are they all to be respected equally, without consideration of the justness of their cause (regardless of what they thought they were fighting for...) Are we to nod our heads understandingly at claims that the Nazi soldiers were just following orders, and don't they deserve respect? I am not a nationalist, and I do not believe "for country, right or wrong". But effectively, we did not hold the Nazi soldiers responsible (in most cases) for following orders. How is the world to view them, then, these contemporary storm troopers of "shock and awe"?

No WMDs, no link to 9/11, only the hypocrisy of cries of "democracy" when we ourselves are incapable of conducting fair elections, and when so many other nations have so much more egregious need.

 

[jimnyc]

Bry, all your typing was for nothing as you were just simply asked whether or not you agree with his namecalling of soldiers. You obviously must agree as you yourself refer to them as "storm troopers". To put them in the same realm as the nazis is despicable. Whether or not anyone supported them or not has nothing to do with this, as the US soldier is much different.

2 peas in a pod, and what a wretched pod that is.

 

[SLClemens]

Bry, interesting response - you expressed my feelings better than I could have.

Originally posted by janeeng
I can't sit and comment too much on all the reasons of war, but I surely can comment on our soldiers. To me, it really doesn't matter what the soldier thinks, if they think they are in Iraq fighting for revenge on 9/11 or to bring Iraq out of the hands of Hussein, they are there doing something that neither you or I are doing, and may never had the balls to do. They had a choice, a choice to enlist or to be civilian. I have read so much crap on how the military is full of a bunch of losers, stupid, gay, couldn't do anything else, etc.. - well, maybe, but I can sure say from those that I have met, it sure turned them into a TRUE MAN/WOMAN!!! the respect they have, the polite way, the guts to do what they do, and you can't tell me that they went an enlisted and didn't know that a day can come that they had to fight in War.

I have a friend that was over during the Gulf War, he was close enough to it all, going into do one thing, disarm Hussein, those were the orders, until they were told to retreat - it was said that they wanted to do it the diplomatic way, anyway, from there, he remained in the army, to only be deployed to Bosnia and deal with all they did there, and beleive me, I heard the stories from over there too. I had the honor of meeting him and others one day, and I couldn't have met more proud soldiers, serving this country and not thinking twice about it. Today, he is still in the Army, and he could have retired from all of it, but chose to remain in the job he loves and that's serving for his Country. He had his views on things, things too he didn't agree on, but did what he was told to do without thinking twice about it. I asked him not long ago what he thought of 9/11 and Iraq, and he separated the two, and gave his views. I was amazed on his views, and we couldn't even begin to understand being we are here just watching the news, and believing that WE know the truth, the war is Oil, Republicans are no good, Libs are no good, this and that, but until you have actually talked to a person that is on the other side, fighting for us, and see the truth, who are we to think we know it all????? I think we have a lot to learn from those that have served, not from what we watch on TV - these are the people you want to get the TRUTH out of. A coward? Suckers? Uneducated??? I think a lot of us have a lot to learn!!! I admire and respect ALL of those that have given up their lives, and served for OUR Country, they aren't as stupid as some believe, I know this for FACT!!!!!!! how awful and heartless it is to think that some believe a soldier is a sucker, uneducated and a coward - remember that should there be an attack again on the US and bombs come flying here, who will save us? who will protect us? I suppose those idiots, suckers, cowards can!!!!!

Janeeng,

I agree with a lot of what you said. Soldiers are a really diverse group of people. Some of them come out the military better off, some don't.

I have a colleague who served as an army officer in the Balkans. I have great respect for what he did. He, like me, sees problems with parts of the opperation but thinks it helped on the whole. He, unlike your friend, got out before Bush came along and is happy he did. I should ask him what he thinks of the wars' proponents constantly resorting to glorification of the US soldier. Perhaps you could ask your friend about this, too. I'm very happy to see that your friend has been thinking carefully about the implications of what we are doing with the military.

Every country glorifies its own soldiers regardless of what it is ordering them to do. You're right, I guess, that we should concentrate on what they're doing, but I believe my "suckers" remark was in response to someone criticizing me for not bearing in mind the sacrifice made by our soldiers in Iraq to fight terrorism when arguing against what they were doing. Is what the soldiers think important? Does it matter to me whether a German soldier fought because he thought the Jews were a threat to his country's existence? It does if someone argues that I shouldn't condemn the German army because its men were so tough and brave, and sacrificed so much for their cause.

I find your "cowards" reference interesting, too, as the only troops I've seen on this site called such are French. This seemed just fine. It's very funny how, when it comes right down to it, the prevailing argument for or against how one characterizes certain soldiers depends upon where one was born, not any attempted analysis of what soldiers do or motivating beliefs. Our soldiers, like those of almost everywhere else, so often seem nothing a dehumanized icon.

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Bry, all your typing was for nothing as you were just simply asked whether or not you agree with his namecalling of soldiers. You obviously must agree as you yourself refer to them as "storm troopers". To put them in the same realm as the nazis is despicable. Whether or not anyone supported them or not has nothing to do with this, as the US soldier is much different.

2 peas in a pod, and what a wretched pod that is.

I know the internet wasn't around then, but isn't it interesting how you didn't hear people making these sorts of analogies during Gulf War I. Remember all the yellow ribbons? There's a tremendous sense of guilt about this war that took years to develop in the case of Vietnam, and otherwise, from what I can gather, seems unheard of in terms of America's history. It's not as though this nation doesn't love a good war when the causes are just.

 

[jimnyc]

Don't worry, SLClemens, you are not alone in your sad little life. Unfortunately, there are others that live a life of disrespect as well.

Thank your military buddy for me. Thank him for being a sucker. Thank him for representing our great nation as a storm trooper. Thank him for being part of a group of young men and women who try to emulate the nazi's. Is he an uneducated young man from the midwest?

ANd lastly, thank him for representing our nation regardless of what twits like you think of them.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by SLClemens
I know the internet wasn't around then, but isn't it interesting how you didn't hear people making these sorts of analogies during Gulf War I. Remember all the yellow ribbons? There's a tremendous sense of guilt about this war that took years to develop in the case of Vietnam, and otherwise, from what I can gather, seems unheard of in terms of America's history. It's not as though this nation doesn't love a good war when the causes are just.

Nice try, but there were PLENTY of anti-war protestors foaming at the mouth in '91 as well. There were even a bunch of non respecting twerps like you calling the soldiers names. What a proud bunch.

 

[janeeng]

I do believe right after Vietnam the soldiers were being called baby killers!!!!! I don't pick and choose the soldiers that I admire or respect, i can respect soldiers from all over, even in France..those that can serve for their country can all be respected and admired for doing something that think is right, to serve and protect. To sit and call them Nazi soldiers, that's just a low blow, it's just as bad as calling them baby killers!!! SAD, it just sickens me to see such crap like this. And I truly love the thought in the post, thought they knew what they were going in for. It's amazing on how you feel you have the FACTS on all the reasoning for war, you are the same as I, someone who has an OPINION !!!!!!!!

 

[SLClemens]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Nice try, but there were PLENTY of anti-war protestors foaming at the mouth in '91 as well. There were even a bunch of non respecting twerps like you calling the soldiers names. What a proud bunch.

Nice try, but I was around back then too, calling peace demonstrators twerps as well. The demonstrations were NOTHING like before this one, neither here nor in Europe. When the anthem started before a baseball game there would be non-stop cheering from beginning to end. I saw no signs in front of houses or in college dorm windows saying "Not our my Names" and "Peace is Patriotic - No War". It might just be my neighborhood, but they are all over the place. No, it really seems huge numbers of people are dealing with a guilt complex and denial complex. I can see why.

 

[jimnyc]

Just not very bright.

 

[jimnyc]

Bry writes:

They do not deserve our ridicule

these contemporary storm troopers

hmmm...... another bright one.