Zone1 Let's actually DISCUSS the origins and intent of the "Due Process Clause" of the Constitution.

[MarathonMike]

Not with WWII - completely different situation. And historically, illegal immigration and the border was typically a bi-partisan issue.

But since this became a highly politicized issue during this last election, you get what we have here now - "which is the way they want it - well, they'll get it."

Since you seem to be asking - these are my thoughts on the issue:


Legal Immigration is fine. This is a country that was built by immigrants. Even prior to the establishment of the United States in 1776, early settlers came from various parts of the world. Only Native Americans can claim "not to be immigrants" when it comes to America.

That said, illegal immigration is not "fine" - at least not to the extent it reached over the past several years. A small % of illegal immigration has been somewhat tolerated over the years. It's when illegal immigration reaches record levels without the necessary judicial processes and/or deportations that should follow mass illegal immigration - is when it becomes a problem.

To begin, illegal immigration sets a bad precedent from the start. A person knowingly enters the country illegally and on his/her very first step on American soil, breaks the law. This person will be forced to lead a lower class life, in the shadows of society and would be considered "lesser" by society because of the person's status. The tragedy is that many of these people would prefer to be considered "lesser" here vs first class citizens in their own country of origin.

Why is this happening at such alarming rates? Human trafficking has become a lucrative industry for organized crime. Many of these people give their life savings to these groups in order for them to secure entry into the U.S. Some of them are "tied" to these groups for years - sometimes longer - paying them for their services or "protection" even after they enter the U.S.

For the United States, it can create an expensive burden in terms of border control, judicial processing, enforcement, politics, and so forth. It also creates an influx of undocumented labor that can affect some areas - but usually that isn't nearly as much of an issue as some make it out to be. Most of the jobs illegal immigrants do are the jobs most Americans do not want to do - there is a demand for their type of labor in the workforce.

Unfortunately, with illegal immigration, there is no control of who (or what) enters the country. You can have criminals, people who are trafficked against their will, drug mules, drugs, or worse all entering illegally.

That said, the idea is to take the immigration process out of the hands of organized crime and back into the hands of the people who want to immigrate here AND do it legally - so that they are fully documented to begin their lives in the U.S.

Ideally, once the current issue subsides, the United States can begin to focus on streamlining legal immigration - the same way many Americans and our ancestors came to this country - with their heads raised high.

Yes, basically what I've been posting here for 10 years. I have personally met illegal immigrants who were working for my wife's Uncle on a dairy farm. Totally admirable people, incredibly hard workers and very good people. Just the sort of immigrants we need in America. Last year my neighbor had his roof redone by a team of illegals. They were working in 112 degree heat for 4 days straight. Show me any Americans that would do that. Uh uh no way.

As you correctly state, legal immigration must be reformed and streamlined, I am hoping DOGE will help that department do just that giving them better tools and possibly identifying systemic issues with the Department.

 

[progressive hunter]

Yes, basically what I've been posting here for 10 years. I have personally met illegal immigrants who were working for my wife's Uncle on a dairy farm. Totally admirable people, incredibly hard workers and very good people. Just the sort of immigrants we need in America. Last year my neighbor had his roof redone by a team of illegals. They were working in 112 degree heat for 4 days straight. Show me any Americans that would do that. Uh uh no way.

As you correctly state, legal immigration must be reformed and streamlined, I am hoping DOGE will help that department do just that giving them better tools and possibly identifying systemic issues with the Department.

cant do anything with immigration until we get the welfare problem fixed,,

to my able bodied people living of the backs of us working folks to justify bringing in immigrants for jobs,,

I would rather promote our people to work that hard instead of using immigrants for cheap labor

 

[MarathonMike]

I would rather promote our people to work that hard instead of using immigrants for cheap labor

I agree with you in principle, but disagree that could ever happen in the numbers required. I know several people who have spent their entire lives in farming and construction. They all say the same thing. You can't find Americans to do the grueling hard labor required on farms or in construction. They either hire H2As, green cards, day laborers or illegals. I'm sure the same is true in other industries.

 

[progressive hunter]

I agree with you in principle, but disagree that could ever happen in the numbers required. I know several people who have spent their entire lives in farming and construction. They all say the same thing. You can't find Americans to do the grueling hard labor required on farms or in construction. They either hire H2As, green cards, day laborers or illegals. I'm sure the same is true in other industries.

why would americans work when the government will provide for them,,

I dont see a big problem with migrant workers for harvest since its seasonal,,

they come for the harvest nd then return home,,

 

[MarathonMike]

why would americans work when the government will provide for them,,

I dont see a big problem with migrant workers for harvest since its seasonal,,

they come for the harvest nd then return home,,

It's more than just having welfare benefits. Working age Americans do not have the work ethic to do what the immigrants do.

There's about 10.000 temporary workers that line up on the Mexican side every morning about 2 to 3am to come across the border and work every day. Then they make it back to their home in Mexico by about 7 or 8 pm. And they do that day after day, year after year.

 

[progressive hunter]

It's more than just having welfare benefits. Working age Americans do not have the work ethic to do what the immigrants do.

There's about 10.000 temporary workers that line up on the Mexican side every morning about 2 to 3am to come across the border and work every day. Then they make it back to their home in Mexico by about 7 or 8 pm. And they do that day after day, year after year.

I would rather try and fix our people instead of just giving up and using cheap foreign labor when possible,,

pushing problems down the road has never had a good outcome,,

 

[MarathonMike]

I would rather try and fix our people instead of just giving up and using cheap foreign labor when possible,,

pushing problems down the road has never had a good outcome,,

Again I agree in principle, I just don't see how you inject work ethic that isn't there.

 

[progressive hunter]

Again I agree in principle, I just don't see how you inject work ethic that isn't there.

I would start by cutting goverment and getting them out of our daily lives nd push individual responsibility,,

but my real position is we dont need more immigration and what system we do have works just fine,,

in fact we should stop all immigration for 2-5 yrs until we get things sorted out nd more stable..

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I don't read AI generated responses. We all know of the "Garbage In/Garbage Out" aspect of current AI engines. American Indians, Chinese laborers and even Japanese CITIZENS were all denied due process. So the claim that today's illegal aliens have rights to due process is clearly invalid. And in the case of Kilmar Garcia he DID receive due process, was deemed an MS-13 gang member and a threat to society and was court ordered to deport.

Not surprisingly you don't really understand what 'garbage in, garbage out' means because if you did, you'd realize how ridiculous your statement is. So much so that I'm going to set up a little experiment that I will share with the board later on.

So now you're scared of AI? Gonna toss it in the bin with that other text string "DEI"?

So this is what I can tell you without use of my AI assistant to help speed things along.

Our country, the United States of America has done plenty of things that were ultimately deemed to be unconstitutional. And one of my complaints has always been that when people knowingly cause a set of actions to take place and the resultant harm continues over years and decades, another court then determining that what they did was in fac unconstitutional does NOTHING to undo the harm that the original unconstitutional act allowed.

Or to put it another way. We all have constitutional rights, but I'd wager just about anything I possession that my rights are violated on a more frequent and consistent basis than yours are. JUST because they are violated doesn't mean I don't have them and what you're advocating for is a disregard of the U.S. Constitution for one set of people based on unconstitutional acts that have previously been allowed but ultimately were determined to be unconstitutional.

And it's not just me or the illegals, or the Native Americans, it's pretty much everyone who is not a white male Christian. Even white women at the time of the 5th and the 14th amendment were 2nd class citizen but still above the caste of Black Americans because white still trumps all when it comes to the oppression hierarchy.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Exactly. So in the case of Japanese US citizens in WWII their "due process" was to ship them to prison camps and keep them there for years. That is the definition of depriving one of their rights to Liberty. In the modern day case for illegal immigrants, their "due process" is to verify proof of citizenship and possibly deport them if no proof can be presented.

You're mistaken, they skipped due process altogether as evidenced by the fact that people of Japanese descent, including those who were American citizens were all rounded up and placed in internment camps. They weren't provided with an opportunity to speak of plead their case before being held captive, therefore their due process rights as guaranteed by the 5th amendment were violated. SCOTUS said as much in their decision in 2018

 

[MarathonMike]

You're mistaken, they skipped due process altogether as evidenced by the fact that people of Japanese descent, including those who were American citizens were all rounded up and placed in internment camps. They weren't provided with an opportunity to speak of plead their case before being held captive, therefore their due process rights as guaranteed by the 5th amendment were violated. SCOTUS said as much in their decision in 2018

You are correct, the US government invoked The Alien Enemies Act to imprison Japanese Citizens just as President Trump invoked The Alien Enemies Act to deport Tren de Aragua. That aside, "due process" as it pertains to illegal immigrants was established in 1891 with the Dept of Immigration. Prior to 1891 "due process" was defined for US citizens in the 5th and 14th Amendments. If an individual chooses to bypass the Dept of Immigration, then all bets are off with regard to any form of due process.

I thank you for engaging in a real discussion, that is what should be happening here more often.

 

[Dragonlady]

Both the 5th and 14th Amendments contain the same 11 word phrase to define the term "Due Process'. Here it is:

No one shall be "deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law."

Now here are some very important dates relevant to Due Process.:

The 5th amendment was ratified in 1791
The 14th amendment was ratified in 1868.
The first Office of Immigration was established in 1891.

So let those dates sink in. The "Due Process" clause was written 100 YEARS BEFORE THE POSSIBILITY OF A PERSON BEING AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. It was repeated again in the 14th Amendment to specifically defend the rights of freed slaves who were GRANTED US Citizenship.

I contend that these facts SUMMARILY INVALIDATE the claim that an illegal immigrant TODAY has the same due process rights as a US CITIZEN.

If you disagree, present a cogent argument as to why an illegal immigrant today has the same due process rights as a US citizen.

The first US immigration LAW, was the 1790 Naturalization Act. That is where the concept of immigration and citizenship came into being - BEFORE the 5th amendment was ratified.

Neither the 5th Amendment, nor the 14th Amendment excludes non-citizens from these rights, ergo, these rights apply to anyone in the USA who is subject to American laws.

 

[MarathonMike]

The first US immigration LAW, was the 1790 Naturalization Act. That is where the concept of immigration and citizenship came into being - BEFORE the 5th amendment was ratified.

Neither the 5th Amendment, nor the 14th Amendment excludes non-citizens from these rights, ergo, these rights apply to anyone in the USA who is subject to American laws.

They don't exclude illegal immigrants because as I have stated numerous times in this thread, the concept of an illegal immigrant didn't exist until we had a LEGAL IMMIGRATION PROCESS that was established many decades after the Natualization Act, or the 5th and 14th amendments.

 

[krichton]

Both the 5th and 14th Amendments contain the same 11 word phrase to define the term "Due Process'. Here it is:

No one shall be "deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law."

Now here are some very important dates relevant to Due Process.:

The 5th amendment was ratified in 1791
The 14th amendment was ratified in 1868.
The first Office of Immigration was established in 1891.

So let those dates sink in. The "Due Process" clause was written 100 YEARS BEFORE THE POSSIBILITY OF A PERSON BEING AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. It was repeated again in the 14th Amendment to specifically defend the rights of freed slaves who were GRANTED US Citizenship.

I contend that these facts SUMMARILY INVALIDATE the claim that an illegal immigrant TODAY has the same due process rights as a US CITIZEN.

If you disagree, present a cogent argument as to why an illegal immigrant today has the same due process rights as a US citizen.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

So the creator endowed all men unalienable rights like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....ONLY as long as they're a citizen? Does that make sense to you? Those two are completely contradictory statements. The 5th and 14th Amendment follows the precepts of the declaration of independence and affirms these pricincples. The supreme court has also held this up in previous judgements. Just accept the fact that we won't allow fascism in this country like how you want it.

 

[dblack]

They don't exclude illegal immigrants because as I have stated numerous times in this thread, the concept of an illegal immigrant didn't exist until we had a LEGAL IMMIGRATION PROCESS that was established many decades after the Natualization Act, or the 5th and 14th amendments.

That's a lot like the argument that the Second Amendment is no longer valid because they didn't have automatic rifles when the Bill of Rights was written.

 

[PeterPilot]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

So the creator endowed all men unalienable rights like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.....ONLY as long as they're a citizen? Does that make sense to you? Those two are completely contradictory statements. The 5th and 14th Amendment follows the precepts of the declaration of independence and affirms these pricincples. The supreme court has also held this up in previous judgements. Just accept the fact that we won't allow fascism in this country like how you want it.

I agree with you, but offer a reality check: fascism has run this government for many long decades. That is, corporate interests, special interests (not the demos) have controlled the federal government for a very long time. It was not intended, is not de jure, but is de facto.

 

[dblack]

I agree with you, but offer a reality check: fascism has run this government for many long decades. That is, corporate interests, special interests (not the demos) have controlled the federal government for a very long time.

I assume you're thinking of corporatism, a form of fascism. Corporatism is more about government controlling special interests than the other way around, but you're right - we've been moving in that direction for a long time. Trump, however, has brought in the more stereotypical aspects of fascism: populist fearmongering, scapegoating, authoritarian nationalism, etc... That's new.

 

[MarathonMike]

That's a lot like the argument that the Second Amendment is no longer valid because they didn't have automatic rifles when the Bill of Rights was written.

That is a false equivalence and I have personally never heard that argument on the 2nd amendment. By definition you cannot be an illegal immigrant until there is a legal immigrant definition which didn't exist until 1891.

 

[dblack]

That is a false equivalence ...

Of course. It's - always - different when "we" do it.

 

[MarathonMike]

Of course. It's - always - different when "we" do it.

If you want to discuss the 2nd amendment. then start a discussion on it. This discussion is about "Due Process".