Let the States Decide- ALA Supreme Court Justice urges Defiance- Gay Marraige

[elektra]

You presented no facts. You linked to a study of a study of Children in Iraq, Russia, North Africa, Lebanon.

Yes, the Third World sucks for children, we know that, if that is the fact you presented than you are right, that is a fact. Anything else you contend is your opinion, nothing more.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/afcarsreport20.pdf

Children Waiting to be Adopted3 on September 30, 2012  N=101,666

So? A report of people waiting to be adopted? What does that have to do with Homosexuals adopting children.

Those are all of the children waiting to be adopted- that you are willing to have continue to wait....and wait.....and wait......

rather than let them have a family that includes gay parents.

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

 

[Skylar]

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/cb/afcarsreport20.pdf

Children Waiting to be Adopted3 on September 30, 2012  N=101,666

So? A report of people waiting to be adopted? What does that have to do with Homosexuals adopting children.

Those are all of the children waiting to be adopted- that you are willing to have continue to wait....and wait.....and wait......

rather than let them have a family that includes gay parents.

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

What does the 'homosexual lifestyle' entail? Having a job? Spending time with family? Going out to dinner? Attending weddings and funerals?

And what about it is 'abusive' to children? Your terms are uselessly vague. And the harm to children little more than an accusation you can type.

 

[Skylar]

"...children in orphanages are fine."? So because you hate gays, children should live in an institution?

I think that speaks volumes about your motivations in this thread. I am so tired of people wanting their hatred to be law.

Wow, to validate your opinion you must now lie?

I am pretty tired of people who lie, liars are a much bigger danger than I could ever be. Why would you lie?

I guess when the Homosexual advocate can not present facts or reasonable opinion they resort to simply being liars.

Liars have no business in this discussion.

You are quick to call others liars- slow to produce facts.

I was not quick to call you a liar, I waited until you lied. As far as facts go, you are the one who is making the assertion that children want to be raised in Homosexual Lifestyle, you are also the one who is making claims based on "studies". I followed you links and presented a fact from your link, that fact was: "Children are doing fine in Orphanages".

You gave me that fact, do you now disagree with what you linked to?

You're honestly arguing that its better for a child to be raised by an institution.....than same sex parents?

Yes. And I am not arguing, I am simply stating a fact.

Says who?

And if its a fact, it will be remarkably easy for you to back up with evidence. If you're talking out of your ass, making shit up as you go along....it may be more difficult.

 

[Skylar]

Oh, and you did miss a major problem with your argument: same sex couples already have kids. And are still having them. If marriage is recognized for them. If it isn't.

Its not as if by denying same sex marriage, the children of same sex parents suddenly have hetero parents.

All you're doing is insuring that these children will never have married parents.

 

[elektra]

So? A report of people waiting to be adopted? What does that have to do with Homosexuals adopting children.

Those are all of the children waiting to be adopted- that you are willing to have continue to wait....and wait.....and wait......

rather than let them have a family that includes gay parents.

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

What does the 'homosexual lifestyle' entail? Having a job? Spending time with family? Going out to dinner? Attending weddings and funerals?

And what about it is 'abusive' to children? Your terms are uselessly vague. And the harm to children little more than an accusation you can type.

What does the Homosexual lifestyle entail, Two men living together, loving one another, kissing and holding hands, going to pride parades, meeting other homosexuals, going to funerals of other homosexuals that die of AIDS. explaining to the adopted children what homosexuality means, basically teaching everything they know to children.

I thought you knew what being homosexual meant?

 

[Skylar]

Those are all of the children waiting to be adopted- that you are willing to have continue to wait....and wait.....and wait......

rather than let them have a family that includes gay parents.

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

What does the 'homosexual lifestyle' entail? Having a job? Spending time with family? Going out to dinner? Attending weddings and funerals?

And what about it is 'abusive' to children? Your terms are uselessly vague. And the harm to children little more than an accusation you can type.

What does the Homosexual lifestyle entail, Two men living together, loving one another, kissing and holding hands, going to pride parades, meeting other homosexuals, going to funerals of other homosexuals that die of AIDS. explaining to the adopted children what homosexuality means, basically teaching everything they know to children.

I thought you knew what being homosexual meant?

And where is the abusive part?

 

[Skylar]

I thought you knew what being homosexual meant?

I'm familiar with the term 'homosexual'. Its the lifestyle part that's a little vague.

So if you go to a funeral for someone who died of AIDS, that's being part of the 'homosexual lifestyle'? If you kiss, that's part of the 'homosexual lifestyle'? If you live together, that's the 'homosexual lifestyle'?

So far, I'm not seeing anything abusive, or even particularly odd. Funerals are part of life. As are birth day parties. As is showing affection for those you love. As is living with them. Apparently the 'homosexual lifestyle' is just going about everyday life.....and being gay. That's it.

And this is the basis we'd use to deny marriage to gays? Or is gay marriage just utterly irrelevant to your argument?

 

[Seawytch]

Yes Kaz, so honorable of you to stay married to your wife when you don't want to. We get it. Big sacrifice on your part to take those tax breaks...that you want to deny gay couples.

LOL, I don't want to pay taxes that I oppose in the first place, I keep saying I think taxes should be flat and marriage irrelevant to the taxes. You don't want to pay taxes that you support. You want to **** single people then get out of those taxes.

And YOU call ME a hypocrite...

Single people aren't denied access to them if they marry, gays are. If you don't buy a house, you don't get the credit. If you don't buy energy efficient appliances you don't get the tax credit. If you don't own a private jet you don't get the private jet credit. Start a flat tax thread.

You want the high taxes, you are a flaming hypocrite to turn around and evade them. Why just because you paired off should you not pay the taxes you advocate other people pay? Doing things like getting family insurance rates is one thing, but you don't pay the taxes you stick on other people. That is just flat out hypocrisy. I advocate low taxes, I don't think singles should pay higher taxes, but I don't think I should either.

I don't see her calling for any lower tax burden than any other married couple.

She hasn't denied supporting progressive tax rates and I said she supports them many times. Maybe she can clarify that.

Yes, I do support a progressive tax, but I also support your right to try to change it. Our tax system, however, is a completely separate issue from gays having equal access to marriage rights and benefits. You should start a thread on how unfair our tax system is to single people and people without private jets.

 

[Seawytch]

Oh, he doesn't enjoy it. He hates it. His wife makes him stay married. He's a VERY reluctant hypocrite.

Strawman

Is that a strawman or blatant slander?

Slander would require her to grasp the concept of heterosexual marriage where you can put your partner's interest before your own and do something you don't want because it's more important to your partner. She isn't capable of putting someone else's needs before her own. She sees a relationship as a negotiation and compromise, and if something is important to her she demands her way and if she doesn't get it shows them the door.

Heterosexual marriage is an entirely different thing. Sure, we compromise sometimes. But when something is that much more important to my partner, I do it her way. She does the same for me. If you're with the right person, that is a far better system than splitting everything down the middle. That is beyond her comprehension, and she keeps telling us that. She got the government validation she craves, but she is just playing the part of a "spouse." She doesn't comprehend what it means.

So you want to pretend to know what Sea's marriage is like, just like she assumed she knew about your marriage.

You are both wrong.

The only thing I know about her marriage is what she tells me to do, which is to not compromise with my partner but insist I get my way.

Are you saying she's not sincere, she's a liar? You're probably right, I actually observed that before. She doesn't do what she tells me to do.

And of course you can prove I've lied, provide links? You've yet to prove any of these claims you make. Like I said, I won't call you a liar, I'll just say you're mistaken.

 

[Seawytch]

LOL, I don't want to pay taxes that I oppose in the first place, I keep saying I think taxes should be flat and marriage irrelevant to the taxes. You don't want to pay taxes that you support. You want to **** single people then get out of those taxes.

And YOU call ME a hypocrite...

Single people aren't denied access to them if they marry, gays are. If you don't buy a house, you don't get the credit. If you don't buy energy efficient appliances you don't get the tax credit. If you don't own a private jet you don't get the private jet credit. Start a flat tax thread.

You want the high taxes, you are a flaming hypocrite to turn around and evade them. Why just because you paired off should you not pay the taxes you advocate other people pay? Doing things like getting family insurance rates is one thing, but you don't pay the taxes you stick on other people. That is just flat out hypocrisy. I advocate low taxes, I don't think singles should pay higher taxes, but I don't think I should either.

She wants to be treated legally exactly the same as you and your wife are.

You oppose that.

That is what your argument boils down to.

Ding, ding, ding!!!! We have a winner!

Strawman. I want us treated equally also. I want everyone treated equally. You don't want that.

Your little tax issue is separate from the rights, benefits and privileges of civil marriage. Take away the tax breaks...gays will still want civil marriage and you'll still want to deny it.

Marriage Rights and Benefits
Learn some of the legal and practical ways that getting married changes your life.

• Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
• Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
• Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
• Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
• Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
• Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
• Receiving public assistance benefits.
• Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
• Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
• Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
• Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
• Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
• • Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
  • Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
  • Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
  • Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
  • Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
  • Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
  • Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.

 

[Seawytch]

And you assume I do without any knowledge

No, I do because of what you keep telling me to do in my marriage. Or is this yet another overt hypocrisy you practice? I should not assume you act how you tell me to act?

I haven't told you to DO anything other than, instead of asking gays why they want to marry, ask yourself and your civilly married wife.

I'm even wishing you luck in your "battle" to get rid of the marriage benefits you and millions of straights (and a few thousand gays) enjoy. Let us know how it goes.

I'm kinda curious. If kaz wants marriage benefits like lower taxes stripped from all married couples.....why doesn't he just pay the higher taxes that people filing individually would pay?

You don't have to file jointly.

To be fair, that isn't what he wants. He thinks single folks should get the same breaks as married folks. Keeping gays from the tax breaks will surely achieve that unrealistic goal.

No, but giving gays that puts us further from that goal. You get it and you flip to opposing equality, you got yours, baby. Screw the rest.

Oh puhleese. 100 straights are marrying for every 1 gay couple and you think that letting us marry is going to get you further from your "goal"? That's like saying eating pancakes for breakfast will get you further from your goal of catching unicorn farts.

 

[Seawytch]

Since gays have been adopting kids for decades and having their own, you don't actually have an argument. The simple fact is our children are fine and if you're really that worried about gays adopting your kids, you'd make alternate arrangements.

I

Since gays have been adopting kids for decades and having their own, you don't actually have an argument. The simple fact is our children are fine and if you're really that worried about gays adopting your kids, you'd make alternate arrangements.

Yes, homosexual men have been adopting 4 year old boys, for years as you say, teaching them the homosexual lifestyle. I call that abuse.

You can call it whatever you want. It doesn't make it true.

Yes, when you say its good that 4 year old children are adopted into a homosexual family/lifestyle, that does not make it true.

Funny, you, giving me the correct answer, to reply to you.

It's not just me that says it's good. All the major medical, child welfare and psychological associations say its good too. All of them support marriage equality and adoption by gays and lesbians.

Our children are fine. It's the kids of divorce that are messed up. Worry about them if you must worry about someone else's family at all.

Your children? I doubt you have children, and if so it's obvious you have no clue as to what is best for children.

And like I said, go ahead and link any time you please, like before, it will be fun.

Well you can doubt all you want to, but we still have 'em. My wife and I have two of our own, a boy and a girl...both teenagers eek. Oh, and I was a surrogate for another gay couple and they have three...two girls and a boy.

And yes, as their parents we do know what is best for them and it's none of your business. Our kids (as in the children of gays and lesbians) are fine. They do deserve to have married parents though.

So, what links would you like? Policy statements? Sure....

Professional Statements on LGBT Parenting

How about comparing outcomes of children adopted by heterosexual and gay parents? (SPOILER ALERT: Gay parents do great)

How Do Children In Same-Sex Adoption Fare?

One study followed children raised by same-sex parents for 11 years as they became adults. The conclusion was still the same: that these adults fared just as well as adults that had been raised by heterosexual parents. Factors analyzed were: sexual orientation identification, self-esteem, relationships with family, the ability to adjust, and underlying psychological issues.

Furthermore, it has been found that the sexual orientation of the parents does not determine what type of parental abilities the parents have. For example, in a study with lesbian couples, it was found that parental abilities and styles were the same between same-sex parents and heterosexual parents - other than the fact that the lesbian couples were more inclined to share household duties and do child rearing on a more equal basis.​

 

[Seawytch]

Are you stating that Homosexual couples are more willing than Heterosexual couples to raise handicapped children?

I don't know if he is, but I am saying it...because it's true.

An October 2011 report by Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that, of gay and lesbian adoptions at more than 300 agencies, 10 percent of the kids placed were older than 6 — typically a very difficult age to adopt out. About 25 percent were older than 3. Sixty percent of gay and lesbian couples adopted across races, which is important given that minority children in the foster system tend to linger. More than half of the kids adopted by gays and lesbians had special needs.

 

[Geaux4it]

Gay marrae today is still viewed as immoral.

Are you stating that Homosexual couples are more willing than Heterosexual couples to raise handicapped children?

I don't know if he is, but I am saying it...because it's true.

An October 2011 report by Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that, of gay and lesbian adoptions at more than 300 agencies, 10 percent of the kids placed were older than 6 — typically a very difficult age to adopt out. About 25 percent were older than 3. Sixty percent of gay and lesbian couples adopted across races, which is important given that minority children in the foster system tend to linger. More than half of the kids adopted by gays and lesbians had special needs.

Me and many Americans still disagree with all you just propped up. The moral decay of our society is past repair

-Geaux

 

[Seawytch]

The closest thing to abuse that my children had to deal with was assholes who think they have a say in other people's relationships and closed-minded idiots who think gays cannot raise kids in a loving and stable home. And that was from outside the home. Inside they suffered no abuse whatsoever.

You are gay and adopted children?

No. But I saw my 3 children living in a home with 2 lesbians and they grew up fine.

Gay couples do a great job raising kids. If they abuse them, then burn them for pedophilia. But the simple fact that they are gay does not change their ability to provide a loving, supportive home for their adopted kids.

The kids in any home should not see their parents having sex. The rest is the same, whether it is a man and a woman, 2 men or 2 women.

Great, you are not gay and did not adopt, you responded to my post as if your situation was what I was speaking of when it was not.

I did not speak of Children seeing parents having sex? Why is that an issue that you must address while responding to me?

There are many forms of Abuse, homosexual abuse is not what I spoke of.

Sorry that you automatically feel everything we discuss about Homosexuality and Children is about sex.

If it is not about sex, then there is no difference between a gay couple and a straight couple raising those kids.

I am not wading thru 1100+ posts of vitriolic nonsense to catch up. If you have a reason why gay couples are abusive, other than the fact that they love someone of the same gender, then say it. Otherwise you are just another hater spewing nonsense.

No, I am not gay and my kids were not adopted by a gay couple. But they were largely raised by a gay couple. And at ages 8, 9, and 11, they had no say in my wife and I divorcing. But they had a happy childhood and were well taken care fo, despite any claims anyone else makes.

There is no difference between gay and heterosexual couples? Two Men can teach a child the love of a mother? Two men can teach a boy how a man and woman interact in a relationship

Yes...yes they can.

Do Children Need a Mother and Father? (SPOILER ALERT: No)

"Significant policy decisions have been swayed by the misconception across party lines that children need both a mother and a father. Yet, there is almost no social science research to support this claim. One problem is that proponents of this view routinely ignore research on same-gender parents," said sociologist Timothy Biblarz of the USC College of Letters, Arts and Sciences.

Extending their prior work on gender and family, Biblarz and Judith Stacey of NYU analyzed relevant studies about parenting, including available research on single-mother and single-father households, gay male parents and lesbian parents.

"That a child needs a male parent and a female parent is so taken for granted that people are uncritical," Stacey said.

In their analysis, the researchers found no evidence of gender-based parenting abilities, with the "partial exception of lactation," noting that very little about the gender of the parent has significance for children's psychological adjustment and social success.​

 

[Seawytch]

Gay marrae today is still viewed as immoral.

By a minority of Americans.

 

[Geaux4it]

Gay marrae today is still viewed as immoral.

By a minority of Americans.

Thanks for proving my point about the moral decay of society

-Geaux

 

[Seawytch]

Those are all of the children waiting to be adopted- that you are willing to have continue to wait....and wait.....and wait......

rather than let them have a family that includes gay parents.

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

What does the 'homosexual lifestyle' entail? Having a job? Spending time with family? Going out to dinner? Attending weddings and funerals?

And what about it is 'abusive' to children? Your terms are uselessly vague. And the harm to children little more than an accusation you can type.

What does the Homosexual lifestyle entail, Two men living together, loving one another, kissing and holding hands, going to pride parades, meeting other homosexuals, going to funerals of other homosexuals that die of AIDS. explaining to the adopted children what homosexuality means, basically teaching everything they know to children.

I thought you knew what being homosexual meant?

Landover Baptist...

Anyway, here's a glimpse into the "gay lifestyle". Sure you can handle it?

Get up, make coffee. Surf net. Make kids lunch. Take shower. Wake kids. Drop kids at bus. Work. Pick kids up from practice. Go home. Kiss wife. Eat dinner loving prepared by wife. Help with homework. Watch TV. Go to bed. Repeat.

So dangerous.

 

[Seawytch]

Gay marrae today is still viewed as immoral.

By a minority of Americans.

Thanks for proving my point about the moral decay of society

-Geaux

Poor old bigots. No "it gets better" videos for ya'll.

 

[Geaux4it]

Like I said, forcing children into a homosexual lifestyle is abuse.

Who is forcing a child into a 'homosexual lifestyle'? What does that even mean? And what significance does you 'saying' something have with reality?

Do you think Homosexuals do not live a Homosexual lifestyle? Your opinion seems a bit unhinged from, "reality".

What does the 'homosexual lifestyle' entail? Having a job? Spending time with family? Going out to dinner? Attending weddings and funerals?

And what about it is 'abusive' to children? Your terms are uselessly vague. And the harm to children little more than an accusation you can type.

What does the Homosexual lifestyle entail, Two men living together, loving one another, kissing and holding hands, going to pride parades, meeting other homosexuals, going to funerals of other homosexuals that die of AIDS. explaining to the adopted children what homosexuality means, basically teaching everything they know to children.

I thought you knew what being homosexual meant?

Landover Baptist...

Anyway, here's a glimpse into the "gay lifestyle". Sure you can handle it?

Get up, make coffee. Surf net. Make kids lunch. Take shower. Wake kids. Drop kids at bus. Work. Pick kids up from practice. Go home. Kiss wife. Eat dinner loving prepared by wife. Help with homework. Watch TV. Go to bed. Repeat.

So dangerous.

To bad we'll never meet.... Going to be pretty how where you're going. Bring sunscreen

-Geaux