Let me 'splain somethin'.............

[ChrisL]

OT? What about Jesus, his own son??? Why on earth would he create a son to take on the sins of all mankind and be tortured to death? That's fucking crazy!

A few denominations believe what you said above (Penal Substitution). Most reject it and see Christ's life, death, and resurrection in a very different light. Meanings of words change not only in translating it from one language to another, but as time goes by as well. People are not as cognizant of that as we should be. When I say, "Christ bore our sins," it has an entirely different meaning and connotation from the "Our sins are on Christ" penal substitution version.

Does this actually change the alleged fact that Christ died on the cross for our sins and was most certainly tortured and suffered beforehand?

 

[Bonzi]

Okay Bonzi, a question, what denomination of Christianity do you follow? I have noted that you feel the Roman Catholic religion has got it all wrong. I would assume you feel the same about the Muslims, the Mormons, the Jews, etc. Now, what evidence do you have that your particular "brand" is more valid and/or more verifiable than their religions? What makes the Bible more or less believable than say, the Torah, for instance?

Chris,

I attend a Baptist church, but don't claim they are the only 1/true way.
I think being a Christian and being saved is a personal relationship with God.
If you realize that God come to earth and died for you, so that your sins may be forgiven, past present and future, and that your life is focused on God and his Kingdom, I believe you are a Christian.
I believe that whatever you "proclaim" to be your denomination is irrelevant, but, that God knows your heart, and, if you have truly turned to him, and accept his sacrifice you are saved.
A true Christian will not run around sinning saying he is forgiven.
A true Christian will want to please God.
A true Christian will want to learn about God, read his Word (the Bible), pray and seek His will.

 

[Bonzi]

because your heart and mind are closed.
You want to hear what you want to hear.....
only God can open that door.....

Your heart and mind is not closed??
You only want to hear what you want to hear.......
Apparently your God has failed to open that same door for you...........

you say this, but only what God thinks/says is what matters............

 

[ChrisL]

Okay Bonzi, a question, what denomination of Christianity do you follow? I have noted that you feel the Roman Catholic religion has got it all wrong. I would assume you feel the same about the Muslims, the Mormons, the Jews, etc. Now, what evidence do you have that your particular "brand" is more valid and/or more verifiable than their religions? What makes the Bible more or less believable than say, the Torah, for instance?

Chris,

I attend a Baptist church, but don't claim they are the only 1/true way.
I think being a Christian and being saved is a personal relationship with God.
If you realize that God come to earth and died for you, so that your sins may be forgiven, past present and future, and that your life is focused on God and his Kingdom, I believe you are a Christian.
I believe that whatever you "proclaim" to be your denomination is irrelevant, but, that God knows your heart, and, if you have truly turned to him, and accept his sacrifice you are saved.
A true Christian will not run around sinning saying he is forgiven.
A true Christian will want to please God.
A true Christian will want to learn about God, read his Word (the Bible), pray and seek His will.

What about the Jews and the Muslims? What about Christians afraid to even serve a gay person at a bakery?

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

because your heart and mind are closed.
You want to hear what you want to hear.....
only God can open that door.....

Your heart and mind is not closed??
You only want to hear what you want to hear.......
Apparently your God has failed to open that same door for you...........

you say this, but only what God thinks/says is what matters............

Why did you repeat the same mumbo jumbo??

 

[ChrisL]

because your heart and mind are closed.
You want to hear what you want to hear.....
only God can open that door.....

Your heart and mind is not closed??
You only want to hear what you want to hear.......
Apparently your God has failed to open that same door for you...........

you say this, but only what God thinks/says is what matters............

And you do not know what God thinks or says. Correct?

 

[Meriweather]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

Which God your Judea-Christian God??

Allah??

Here is today's top 10 list of current Gods, which one??

The official Godchecker chart of Top Gods

 

[ChrisL]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

I think most of these guys were popes for the power. Back then, a pope held more power than the king.


Benedict IX was Pope from 1032 to 1044, again in 1045, and finally from 1047 to 1048, the only man to have served as Pope for three discontinuous periods, and one of the most controversial Popes of all time. Benedict gave up his papacy for the first time in exchange for a large sum of money in 1044. He returned in 1045 to depose his replacement and reigned for one month, after which he left again, possibly to marry, and sold the papacy for a second time, to his Godfather (possibly for over 650 kg /1450 lb of gold). Two years later, Benedict retook Rome and reigned for an additional one year, until 1048. Poppo of Brixen (later to become Pope Damascus II) eventually forced him out of Rome. Benedict’s place and date of death are unknown, but some speculate that he made further attempts to regain the Papal Throne. St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

 

[Meriweather]

What always annoyed me about Catholic church, is the sit, stand, kneel bullshit. I would wonder, does God really give two shits whether I sit, stand or kneel, and if so, why? And the money that is supposed donated to "god." Lol. Now, THAT is a good one, I must say!

That goes back to world-wide customs that were in place at the time of Christ. It was servant-master protocol.

For example, when a servant petitioned something from his master, he knelt before him. If a servant was receiving instructions from his master, he stood to show he was listening and ready to immediately do what was being asked of him. Sitting was a neutral position. Catholics just kept the customs (and the liturgical dress) that were in play two thousand years ago. I kind of like having that connection with early Christians.

The collection money is not donated to God. It is collected because, even on churches, God does not shower money down on the rooftops to pay the water and electric bills, or to assist the poor with food, clothes, shelter, and medical care.

 

[ChrisL]

What always annoyed me about Catholic church, is the sit, stand, kneel bullshit. I would wonder, does God really give two shits whether I sit, stand or kneel, and if so, why? And the money that is supposed donated to "god." Lol. Now, THAT is a good one, I must say!

That goes back to world-wide customs that were in place at the time of Christ. It was servant-master protocol.

For example, when a servant petitioned something from his master, he knelt before him. If a servant was receiving instructions from his master, he stood to show he was listening and ready to immediately do what was being asked of him. Sitting was a neutral position. Catholics just kept the customs (and the liturgical dress) that were in play two thousand years ago. I kind of like having that connection with early Christians.

The collection money is not donated to God. It is collected because, even on churches, God does not shower money down on the rooftops to pay the water and electric bills, or to assist the poor with food, clothes, shelter, and medical care.

Well sure, but it is also considered a religious duty and like a "sacrifice" of sorts of your earnings, to thank god for your money? Is that right? In fact, I thought I read before that some churches have a standard amount or percentage of your income that they would like to see you donate. Not that they make you, but that is what they would like to see.

 

[aris2chat]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

I think most of these guys were popes for the power. Back then, a pope held more power than the king.


Benedict IX was Pope from 1032 to 1044, again in 1045, and finally from 1047 to 1048, the only man to have served as Pope for three discontinuous periods, and one of the most controversial Popes of all time. Benedict gave up his papacy for the first time in exchange for a large sum of money in 1044. He returned in 1045 to depose his replacement and reigned for one month, after which he left again, possibly to marry, and sold the papacy for a second time, to his Godfather (possibly for over 650 kg /1450 lb of gold). Two years later, Benedict retook Rome and reigned for an additional one year, until 1048. Poppo of Brixen (later to become Pope Damascus II) eventually forced him out of Rome. Benedict’s place and date of death are unknown, but some speculate that he made further attempts to regain the Papal Throne. St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

sex, greed, abuse, murder, the church has seen it all, and still does in every faith and sect

 

[Meriweather]

I'm just going by the things that I learned, things that I've read and that were taught to me as a child. Apparently your idea of afterlife is not universal, and I would venture to say that most Christians actually do believe in a hell like place.

All I know is that Sister taught her classes that Dante's version of hell could be found in Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. She asked us an interesting question. Did we, personally, know anyone who was going to hell? She had us laughing over the thought that no one we know will be in hell--must be filled with people we don't know. She then went through the math of everyone we knew, knew people we don't know, who also knew more people others didn't know...until she had us convinced everyone must be in heaven.

Then she asked, "What about people who truly want to be on their own without God? What about good people who simply don't want to be God's servants? Do you think God would force them into heaven to serve Him?"

We were taught God does not send anyone to hell, but people do choose to go there. And we were also taught to keep in mind, Dante's hell is his own vision, not God's.

 

[ChrisL]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

I think most of these guys were popes for the power. Back then, a pope held more power than the king.


Benedict IX was Pope from 1032 to 1044, again in 1045, and finally from 1047 to 1048, the only man to have served as Pope for three discontinuous periods, and one of the most controversial Popes of all time. Benedict gave up his papacy for the first time in exchange for a large sum of money in 1044. He returned in 1045 to depose his replacement and reigned for one month, after which he left again, possibly to marry, and sold the papacy for a second time, to his Godfather (possibly for over 650 kg /1450 lb of gold). Two years later, Benedict retook Rome and reigned for an additional one year, until 1048. Poppo of Brixen (later to become Pope Damascus II) eventually forced him out of Rome. Benedict’s place and date of death are unknown, but some speculate that he made further attempts to regain the Papal Throne. St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

sex, greed, abuse, murder, the church has seen it all, and still does in every faith and sect

Just one reason why I would not trust the words or books of these ancient people.

 

[ChrisL]

I'm just going by the things that I learned, things that I've read and that were taught to me as a child. Apparently your idea of afterlife is not universal, and I would venture to say that most Christians actually do believe in a hell like place.

All I know is that Sister taught her classes that Dante's version of hell could be found in Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. She asked us an interesting question. Did we, personally, know anyone who was going to hell? She had us laughing over the thought that no one we know will be in hell--must be filled with people we don't know. She then went through the math of everyone we knew, knew people we don't know, who also knew more people others didn't know...until she had us convinced everyone must be in heaven.

Then she asked, "What about people who truly want to be on their own without God? What about good people who simply don't want to be God's servants? Do you think God would force them into heaven to serve Him?"

We were taught God does not send anyone to hell, but people do choose to go there. And we were also taught to keep in mind, Dante's hell is his own vision, not God's.

What about a person who murders or rapes children? Does he go to heaven too?

 

[Bonzi]

because your heart and mind are closed.
You want to hear what you want to hear.....
only God can open that door.....

Your heart and mind is not closed??
You only want to hear what you want to hear.......
Apparently your God has failed to open that same door for you...........

you say this, but only what God thinks/says is what matters............

Why did you repeat the same mumbo jumbo??

Puppies and cats want our love, too.
I love them, but why would I worship either??[/QUOTE]

God wants us to love and worship Him. Why is this wrong in your eyes?
We worship God because he is our creator and we love him.

 

[aris2chat]

I'm just going by the things that I learned, things that I've read and that were taught to me as a child. Apparently your idea of afterlife is not universal, and I would venture to say that most Christians actually do believe in a hell like place.

All I know is that Sister taught her classes that Dante's version of hell could be found in Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. She asked us an interesting question. Did we, personally, know anyone who was going to hell? She had us laughing over the thought that no one we know will be in hell--must be filled with people we don't know. She then went through the math of everyone we knew, knew people we don't know, who also knew more people others didn't know...until she had us convinced everyone must be in heaven.

Then she asked, "What about people who truly want to be on their own without God? What about good people who simply don't want to be God's servants? Do you think God would force them into heaven to serve Him?"

We were taught God does not send anyone to hell, but people do choose to go there. And we were also taught to keep in mind, Dante's hell is his own vision, not God's.

What about a person who murders or rapes children? Does he go to heaven too?

if he confesses his sins behind a curtain and says a hail mary

If it is so easy to go to heaven, why use the image of a hell?

 

[Bonzi]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

I think most of these guys were popes for the power. Back then, a pope held more power than the king.


Benedict IX was Pope from 1032 to 1044, again in 1045, and finally from 1047 to 1048, the only man to have served as Pope for three discontinuous periods, and one of the most controversial Popes of all time. Benedict gave up his papacy for the first time in exchange for a large sum of money in 1044. He returned in 1045 to depose his replacement and reigned for one month, after which he left again, possibly to marry, and sold the papacy for a second time, to his Godfather (possibly for over 650 kg /1450 lb of gold). Two years later, Benedict retook Rome and reigned for an additional one year, until 1048. Poppo of Brixen (later to become Pope Damascus II) eventually forced him out of Rome. Benedict’s place and date of death are unknown, but some speculate that he made further attempts to regain the Papal Throne. St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

sex, greed, abuse, murder, the church has seen it all, and still does in every faith and sect

Just one reason why I would not trust the words or books of these ancient people.

Who or what do you think is more reliable?

 

[Bonzi]

because your heart and mind are closed.
You want to hear what you want to hear.....
only God can open that door.....

Your heart and mind is not closed??
You only want to hear what you want to hear.......
Apparently your God has failed to open that same door for you...........

you say this, but only what God thinks/says is what matters............

And you do not know what God thinks or says. Correct?

I believe I have a relationship with God. I am sure of that as I am that I have 2 children....
Only God is perfect, not me, I can only speak to his qualifications...

 

[ChrisL]

Some Popes throughout history have been some of the meanest MF'ers. They were outright ordering to have people tortured and murdered. Innocent people, charged with things like "heresy", who they had "feuds" with or perhaps other reasons. Why would any God allow such evil people to infiltrate his church? The Roman Catholic is one of the earliest denominations of Christianity too.

There were twelve apostles chosen by Christ. One (one-twelfth) betrayed him. This has always been a solemn caution and reminder that not all who are close to God are all that is hoped for, all that they should be.

Further, if I recall my studies correctly, the Church has never had two bad popes in a row. In other words, the Church, just as the Apostles did before them, worked to undo the damage of the one.

Finally, what was happening in the one spot-lighted diocese in Rome was very far from what was taking place within the whole of Christianity. I've moved around quite a bit, and as such, have been a parishioner in about a dozen parishes. You know of the sex scandal in the Catholic Church. While none of the parishes of which I was a member was ever remotely involved in these things, all priests (for awhile) were broad-brushed with what tainted the few. There were Catholics, even in these parishes where no wrong was committed, who said, "Forget this," and left the Church.

I don't blame them. But for those of us who stayed, we stayed because there is something greater worth staying for. The Catholic Church is now the model of how to best protect children from child predators. Yes. Every single one of us feels the Church never should have been in the position where it was in desperate need of cleaning up its act, but those of us who stay, stay because of the belief, the certainty, we have something worth cleansing. Jesus cleansed the Temple in his day; we continue that work in our own.

I think most of these guys were popes for the power. Back then, a pope held more power than the king.


Benedict IX was Pope from 1032 to 1044, again in 1045, and finally from 1047 to 1048, the only man to have served as Pope for three discontinuous periods, and one of the most controversial Popes of all time. Benedict gave up his papacy for the first time in exchange for a large sum of money in 1044. He returned in 1045 to depose his replacement and reigned for one month, after which he left again, possibly to marry, and sold the papacy for a second time, to his Godfather (possibly for over 650 kg /1450 lb of gold). Two years later, Benedict retook Rome and reigned for an additional one year, until 1048. Poppo of Brixen (later to become Pope Damascus II) eventually forced him out of Rome. Benedict’s place and date of death are unknown, but some speculate that he made further attempts to regain the Papal Throne. St. Peter Damian described him as “feasting on immorality” and “a demon from hell in the disguise of a priest” in the Liber Gomorrhianus, a treatise on papal corruption and sex that accused Benedict IX of routine homosexuality and bestiality.

sex, greed, abuse, murder, the church has seen it all, and still does in every faith and sect

Just one reason why I would not trust the words or books of these ancient people.

Who or what do you think is more reliable?

You still haven't answered my previous question, have you?