led zeppelin being sued for plagiarism over "stairway to heaven"

[Pogo]

Here's the irony of ironies, Stairway being the rare case of a song LZ actually wrote themselves after ripping off Howlin' Wolf, Willie Dixon, Anne Bredon, Bert Jansch, Robert Johnson, Richie Valens, Jake Holmes and whoever else...

When a group called Little Roger and the Goosebumps put this parody out, LZ sued their pants off. Even though Page and Plant are credited on the record.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-MuLvAQe4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg-MuLvAQe4[/ame]

 

[westwall]

"Genius" in a thread about Led Zeppelin? Really?

Hate to admit it, because Jimmy Plagiarist and Robber Plant have been the worst nickers in the business, but Taurus to Stairway is a stretch. A minor chord with descending bass, big whoop. Far less egregious than the rest of the shit they really did steal.

This is only "part 1" (of four):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M

Everybody plagiarizes from everybody else in entertainment. Even the "greatest of them all"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvZGl1NqBRc]Bob Fosse Michael Jackson Pas de Deux - YouTube[/ame]

Everybody borrows, rehashes, covers, imitates, whatever. The problem comes when you take something that some other artist clearly composed, and instead put your own name on it and collect the royalties that rightly belonged to that composer.

As LZ did with

• Whole Lotta Love
• Babe I'm gonna Leave You
• You Shook Me
• Dazed and Confused
• Black Mountain Side (arrangement, and even two thirds of the title)
• When the Levee Breaks
• The Lemon Song (taken from two different artists)
• Boogie with Stu
• Bring it On Home

-- and a bunch of other songs.

Use the material you want, but don't try to pass it off as your own.

Agreed. I wonder why MJ never acknowledged Fosse's influence? He certainly never paid him anything for those signature moves he used.

 

[Pogo]

Everybody plagiarizes from everybody else in entertainment. Even the "greatest of them all"

Bob Fosse Michael Jackson Pas de Deux - YouTube

Everybody borrows, rehashes, covers, imitates, whatever. The problem comes when you take something that some other artist clearly composed, and instead put your own name on it and collect the royalties that rightly belonged to that composer.

As LZ did with

• Whole Lotta Love
• Babe I'm gonna Leave You
• You Shook Me
• Dazed and Confused
• Black Mountain Side (arrangement, and even two thirds of the title)
• When the Levee Breaks
• The Lemon Song (taken from two different artists)
• Boogie with Stu
• Bring it On Home

-- and a bunch of other songs.

Use the material you want, but don't try to pass it off as your own.

Agreed. I wonder why MJ never acknowledged Fosse's influence? He certainly never paid him anything for those signature moves he used.

Can choreography be copyrighted though?

The comparison is revealing but I don't know if it can. This is basically about music royalties.

 

[whitehall]

I never was a led zep fan. I guess I didn't like cute names. Rock stars aren't known for their integrity so I guess lawyers will run the show which they do anyway. I guess titles aren't copyrighted. I recall Neil Sedaka had a "stairway to heaven" record. I guess you can't copyright the words either. Richard Rogers' 30's song "Blue Moon" was ruined by a 60's do-wop group.

 

[Pogo]

So --- WHO gets to sue over these?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WfoccRna6I"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WfoccRna6I[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHCKtPafA0A"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHCKtPafA0A[/ame]

 

[westwall]

Everybody borrows, rehashes, covers, imitates, whatever. The problem comes when you take something that some other artist clearly composed, and instead put your own name on it and collect the royalties that rightly belonged to that composer.

As LZ did with

• Whole Lotta Love
• Babe I'm gonna Leave You
• You Shook Me
• Dazed and Confused
• Black Mountain Side (arrangement, and even two thirds of the title)
• When the Levee Breaks
• The Lemon Song (taken from two different artists)
• Boogie with Stu
• Bring it On Home

-- and a bunch of other songs.

Use the material you want, but don't try to pass it off as your own.

Agreed. I wonder why MJ never acknowledged Fosse's influence? He certainly never paid him anything for those signature moves he used.

Can choreography be copyrighted though?

The comparison is revealing but I don't know if it can. This is basically about music royalties.

That's true, and to be honest I have no idea if choreography can be copyrighted.
Considering how many of Fosse's moves have been incorporated into newer pieces, my assumption is that the community limits it's copying to a minimum out of fear of the label, (probably hurts the new gigs if you are branded a serial plagiarist) rather than the actual legal definition.

 

[Pogo]

I never was a led zep fan. I guess I didn't like cute names. Rock stars aren't known for their integrity so I guess lawyers will run the show which they do anyway. I guess titles aren't copyrighted. I recall Neil Sedaka had a "stairway to heaven" record. I guess you can't copyright the words either. Richard Rogers' 30's song "Blue Moon" was ruined by a 60's do-wop group.

"Ruined" is of course subjective, but the point that would apply here (but doesn't) is that the Marcels credited the original songwriters and didn't try to pretend they wrote it themselves -- see where it says "Rogers-Hart" under the title?

That's the difference between Led Zep and honest people.

 

[Marianne]

Kory Grow, Rolling Stone—As Led Zeppelin promote the extravagant reissues of their first three albums for an early June release, a lawyer representing deceased Spirit guitarist Randy California is claiming the hard-rock legends stole the intro for their 1971 single "Stairway to Heaven" from Spirit's 1968 song "Taurus." Attorney Francis Alexander Molofiy wants to prevent the release of the Led Zeppelin IV reissue when the time comes, Bloomberg Businessweek reports. "The idea behind this is to make sure that Randy California is given a writing credit on 'Stairway to Heaven,'" Malofiy said. "It's been a long time coming."

Led Zeppelin and Spirit, who had a hit with "I Got a Line on You," played four gigs together in 1968 and 1969 (shows at which Businessweek claims Spirit played "Taurus"). Led Zeppelin also reportedly played a medley of songs that included Spirit's "Fresh-Garbage" – a song that appeared on the same LP side as "Taurus" – on their first U.S. tour.

In an interview with Listener magazine published the year of his death, California said he felt "Stairway to Heaven" was a "rip-off." "The guys made millions of bucks on it and never said 'Thank you,' never said, 'Can we pay you some money for it?'" he said. "It's kind of a sore point with me. Maybe someday their conscience will make them do something about it."

Spirit and California's family have waited until now to challenge the song's authorship because they did not have the means to pay attorneys. At the end of California's life, he would play sitar at an Indian restaurant in exchange for food.

A rep for Led Zeppelin declined to comment for Businessweek's story, but Page discussed the band's history with crediting songwriters after the fact in a recent interview with The New York Times. When asked why the group waited to credit Willie Dixon for bits of lyrics and melody that made their way into "Whole Lotta Love," he acknowledged, "Within the lyrics of it, there's [Dixons's] "You Need Love," and there are similarities within the lyrics. Now I'm not pointing a finger at anybody, but I'm just saying that's what happened, and Willie Dixon got credit. Fair enough."

Reissues of Led Zeppelin, Led Zeppelin II and Led Zeppelin III are due in stores on June 3rd. Each is available in a deluxe edition that contains a full disc of never-before-released studio takes and live tracks.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8AVbwB_6E]Spirit, Taurus[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcL---4xQYA]Led Zeppelin, Stairway to Heaven[/ame]

https://music.yahoo.com/news/led-ze...geted-plagiarism-181041510-rolling-stone.html

Spirit definately has a case but as a local DJ said "Zeppelin took a crappy riff and made it better."

 

[whitehall]

I never was a led zep fan. I guess I didn't like cute names. Rock stars aren't known for their integrity so I guess lawyers will run the show which they do anyway. I guess titles aren't copyrighted. I recall Neil Sedaka had a "stairway to heaven" record. I guess you can't copyright the words either. Richard Rogers' 30's song "Blue Moon" was ruined by a 60's do-wop group.

"Ruined" is of course subjective, but the point that would apply here (but doesn't) is that the Marcels credited the original songwriters and didn't try to pretend they wrote it themselves -- see where it says "Rogers-Hart" under the title?

That's the difference between Led Zep and honest people.

It should be noted that that it wasn't Rogers and Heart but Rogers and Lorenz that wrote the song at the time. I guess Heart was easier to spell. Appreciation is subjective for sure. Would Led Zep be off the hook if they gave that California guy credit?

 

[Pogo]

I never was a led zep fan. I guess I didn't like cute names. Rock stars aren't known for their integrity so I guess lawyers will run the show which they do anyway. I guess titles aren't copyrighted. I recall Neil Sedaka had a "stairway to heaven" record. I guess you can't copyright the words either. Richard Rogers' 30's song "Blue Moon" was ruined by a 60's do-wop group.

"Ruined" is of course subjective, but the point that would apply here (but doesn't) is that the Marcels credited the original songwriters and didn't try to pretend they wrote it themselves -- see where it says "Rogers-Hart" under the title?

That's the difference between Led Zep and honest people.

It should be noted that that it wasn't Rogers and Heart but Rogers and Lorenz that wrote the song at the time. I guess Heart was easier to spell. Appreciation is subjective for sure. Would Led Zep be off the hook if they gave that California guy credit?

"Lorenz" is Hart's first name. Richard Rogers and Lorenz Hart.

If this were a legitimate claim of plagiarism and they credited Randy California and paid him royalties there would be no issue.

However as a musician I don't believe this is a legitimate claim, even if it were brought in a timely manner. They're just not the same song; they share a minor chord that progresses into a descending bass line for two bars, that's it. Then they go in different directions.

 

[Harry Dresden]

i saw Spirit open for Cream during their last tour in late 68.....they were pretty good, California was a pretty good player.....

 

[WelfareQueen]

Zep pretty much completely ripped off Jeff Beck and Truth with their first album. Zep even did a cover of You Shook Me which Jeff Beck had already done.

 

[Pogo]

Zep pretty much completely ripped off Jeff Beck and Truth with their first album. Zep even did a cover of You Shook Me which Jeff Beck had already done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya_Vu5e8yrw

- which Muddy Waters had already done, composer credit attributed to Willie Dixon (1962):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAPHNgHJdw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAPHNgHJdw[/ame]

Don't know what the Beck album lists as credits..

A more complete LZ legacy - composite list:

"Train Kept A Rollin'" -- Written by Tiny Bradshaw, L. Mann, and H. Kay, first recorded by Bradshaw's Big Band in 1951. Rewritten as a rockabilly tune in 1956 and recorded by the Johnny Burnette Trio (whose guitarist, Paul Burlison, was an influence on Jeff Beck and inspired him to cover the tune with the Yardbirds). The Yardbirds recorded both the "original" tune and a rewritten version called "Stroll On" (the lyrics were modified to avoid copyright hassles) in Michaelangelo Antonioni's film "Blow Up", which features the Beck/Page-era Yardbirds imitating the Who.

"White Summer" -- Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" -- Anne Bredon (a/k/a Annie Briggs)

"You Shook Me" -- Willie Dixon, first recorded by Muddy Waters.

"I Can't Quit You Baby" -- Willie Dixon.

"Communication Breakdown" -- Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

"How Many More Times" -- a mash-up of Howlin Wolf's "How Many More Years" and Albert King's "The Hunter". LZ's version is lyrically related to a cover called "How Many More Times" by Gary Farr and the T-Bones (liner notes by Giorgio Gomelsky, one-time producer for The Yardbirds). Zeppelin's particular arrangement grew from live jams on "Smokestack Lightning" that the Page-era Yardbirds used to do.

"Dazed And Confused" -- Jake Holmes, written and recorded as "Dazed & Confused." The Yardbirds covered it under the title "I'm Confused," with lyrics altered (originally about an acid trip) for the Zeppelin version.

"Black Mountain Side" -- The main riff is almost identical to the late Bert Jansch's "Black Water Side," though Jansch cites Annie Briggs as an earlier source.

"The Lemon Song" -- again a combination of Howlin Wolf's "Killing Floor," spiced with Robert Johnson ("squeeze my lemon" line comes from "Traveling Riverside Blues"). ARC Music filed a suit against Zeppelin in the early 70's, which was settled out of court.

"Whole Lotta Love" -- Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" (lyrics).

"Bring It On Home" -- Written by Willie Dixon, though the Sonny Boy Williamson version is the one which this bears a similarity to.

"Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" -- intro lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by Bert Jansch.

"Gallows Pole" -- traditional, associated with Leadbelly.

"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" -- traditional, Bukka White (song entitled "Shake 'Em On Down"), also covered by Joe Lee Williams and Blind Lemon Jefferson.

"When The Levee Breaks" -- Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe McCoy (see below)

"Custard Pie" -- Sleepy John Estes did a song entitled "Drop Down Daddy" in 1935, which seems to be the earliest source for this material. Blind Boy Fuller recorded a song entitled "I Want Some Of Your Pie" in 1939. Sonny Terry covered it with the title "Custard Pie Blues." Big Joe Williams also covered it under the title "Drop Down Mama," and his lyrics are pretty much identical to Plant's.

"In My Time Of Dying" -- Traditional. First recorded by Blind Willie Johnson as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed".

"Nobody's Fault But Mine" -- Blind Willie Johnson (lyrics).

Here's a cool site that sits two songs next to each other for comparison: Who Sampled- exploring the DNA of Rock & Roll - in this case comparing LZ's "Since I've Been Loving You" with its source, Moby Grape's contemporary song "Never"


"When the Levee Breaks" -- Kansas Joe McCoy and Memphis Minnie (1929):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U[/ame]

 

[DriftingSand]

Their entire first album was "semi-plagiarized" -- it wasn't until more recent printings of LZ 1 that they gave credit to the musicians who inspired/authored those riffs. Page changed the riffs, made them his own, but they do sound similar.

Not only have the famous riffs come under fire, but so have the lyrics. The allegations have brought several lawsuits as well, most of them settled out of court very discretely. In the case of “Whole Lotta Love”, the song credits were later amended to include Willie Dixon, who claimed Robert Plant used lyrics from his song “You Need Love”. Look at the credits on “Babe I’m Gonna Leave You”, and you’ll notice folk singer Anne Bredon right next to Page. She’s been receiving royalties (back payments included) since 1990.

The examples go on and on. Some are blatant copies, some don’t hold ground. The similarities are just as many as the differences, so the arguments could go on for days. The truth is, Zeppelin’s music is a collection of parts, some original, some borrowed. Trying to conclude whether or not they are rip-offs is left to the listener.

Re: Stairway to Heaven -

Note for note, it's not the same riff -- similar, but not the same. Stairway to Heaven is more than just one riff. It's a rock masterpiece.

Remember the scene in the film Amadeus when Motzart recomposed one of Salieri's pieces on the fly -- turing a boring little piece in something of value. That's what genius does.

Hilarious!!!

 

[Desperado]

Led Zeppelin were not stealing the riffs but merely sampling the riffs.
It works for Rappers, ARappers steal, I mean sample music as use it as their own.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Zep pretty much completely ripped off Jeff Beck and Truth with their first album. Zep even did a cover of You Shook Me which Jeff Beck had already done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya_Vu5e8yrw

- which Muddy Waters had already done, composer credit attributed to Willie Dixon (1962):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAPHNgHJdw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgAPHNgHJdw[/ame]

Don't know what the Beck album lists as credits..

A more complete LZ legacy - composite list:

"Train Kept A Rollin'" -- Written by Tiny Bradshaw, L. Mann, and H. Kay, first recorded by Bradshaw's Big Band in 1951. Rewritten as a rockabilly tune in 1956 and recorded by the Johnny Burnette Trio (whose guitarist, Paul Burlison, was an influence on Jeff Beck and inspired him to cover the tune with the Yardbirds). The Yardbirds recorded both the "original" tune and a rewritten version called "Stroll On" (the lyrics were modified to avoid copyright hassles) in Michaelangelo Antonioni's film "Blow Up", which features the Beck/Page-era Yardbirds imitating the Who.

"White Summer" -- Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" -- Anne Bredon (a/k/a Annie Briggs)

"You Shook Me" -- Willie Dixon, first recorded by Muddy Waters.

"I Can't Quit You Baby" -- Willie Dixon.

"Communication Breakdown" -- Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."

"How Many More Times" -- a mash-up of Howlin Wolf's "How Many More Years" and Albert King's "The Hunter". LZ's version is lyrically related to a cover called "How Many More Times" by Gary Farr and the T-Bones (liner notes by Giorgio Gomelsky, one-time producer for The Yardbirds). Zeppelin's particular arrangement grew from live jams on "Smokestack Lightning" that the Page-era Yardbirds used to do.

"Dazed And Confused" -- Jake Holmes, written and recorded as "Dazed & Confused." The Yardbirds covered it under the title "I'm Confused," with lyrics altered (originally about an acid trip) for the Zeppelin version.

"Black Mountain Side" -- The main riff is almost identical to the late Bert Jansch's "Black Water Side," though Jansch cites Annie Briggs as an earlier source.

"The Lemon Song" -- again a combination of Howlin Wolf's "Killing Floor," spiced with Robert Johnson ("squeeze my lemon" line comes from "Traveling Riverside Blues"). ARC Music filed a suit against Zeppelin in the early 70's, which was settled out of court.

"Whole Lotta Love" -- Willie Dixon's "You Need Love" (lyrics).

"Bring It On Home" -- Written by Willie Dixon, though the Sonny Boy Williamson version is the one which this bears a similarity to.

"Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" -- intro lifted from "The Waggoner's Tale" by Bert Jansch.

"Gallows Pole" -- traditional, associated with Leadbelly.

"Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" -- traditional, Bukka White (song entitled "Shake 'Em On Down"), also covered by Joe Lee Williams and Blind Lemon Jefferson.

"When The Levee Breaks" -- Memphis Minnie and Kansas Joe McCoy (see below)

"Custard Pie" -- Sleepy John Estes did a song entitled "Drop Down Daddy" in 1935, which seems to be the earliest source for this material. Blind Boy Fuller recorded a song entitled "I Want Some Of Your Pie" in 1939. Sonny Terry covered it with the title "Custard Pie Blues." Big Joe Williams also covered it under the title "Drop Down Mama," and his lyrics are pretty much identical to Plant's.

"In My Time Of Dying" -- Traditional. First recorded by Blind Willie Johnson as "Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed".

"Nobody's Fault But Mine" -- Blind Willie Johnson (lyrics).

Here's a cool site that sits two songs next to each other for comparison: Who Sampled- exploring the DNA of Rock & Roll - in this case comparing LZ's "Since I've Been Loving You" with its source, Moby Grape's contemporary song "Never"


"When the Levee Breaks" -- Kansas Joe McCoy and Memphis Minnie (1929):

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhEa8vuP6U[/ame]

since ive been loving you sure sounds similiar....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Led Zeppelin were not stealing the riffs but merely sampling the riffs.
It works for Rappers, ARappers steal, I mean sample music as use it as their own.

i dont know....when you record the song and dont give the people your "sampling" any credit it kinda says steal to me..... if they would say in the liner notes that the song was taken from such and such a song it may make a difference but i never remember seeing any of that in Zeps liner notes....

 

[Pogo]

Led Zeppelin were not stealing the riffs but merely sampling the riffs.
It works for Rappers, ARappers steal, I mean sample music as use it as their own.

"Sampling" means capturing a sound file -- not the composition, the original sound -- from somewhere else and using that element. That's not the story here and it wasn't really happening in the '60s anyway. This is taking somebody else's song, or parts of songs, that somebody else wrote and either copyrighted or arranged (or both) and then putting your own name on it as if you created it.

That matters because the composer gets a royalty every time your record sells, and take a moment to consider how many records LZ sold. Then add in that you get another royalty every time somebody else records your song and sells it, and consider how many others recorded "Stairway".

On the other hand taking inspiration from some other song, using an element as a building block and then constructing your own stuff out of the idea is perfectly legitimate and has gone on for centuries. The Beatles made much of their career out of it and before them guys like Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov were freely inserting Russian folk melodies into their commissioned works, but in these cases the end result is something new that cannot be called a clone of the starting point.

When John Lennon took the basic storyline from the Rays "Silhouettes" (1957) to write "No Reply" (1964), the story was similar but the music and song ended up completely different:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6uq49ueugg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6uq49ueugg[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILdBDOPoEDQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILdBDOPoEDQ[/ame]

But Lennon later crossed the line writing "Come Together" when he lifted lyric lines (and song structure) directly from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me" (1956). That case, like many, was settled out of court with Lennon agreeing to record some Berry material for his 1975 album "Rock and Roll", from which Berry was paid royalties for the pertinent material.

Ironically this case of Stairway vs. Taurus really seems to be a legitimately original composition by Page and Plant. No doubt LZ's long infamous legacy of putting their name on other people's work has lowered the bar to the point somebody hopes they can cash in; if LZ were not known for this practice, this suit may never have come up. While I don't think musically it is plagiarism in this case -- if it were adjudged to be and LZ were unfairly forced to pay royalties on a creation they legitimately wrote, it would be kind of a fitting irony of payback.

The bottom line on this though may be a technicality -- given the time gap between when Stairway was written and now, I suspect LZ could successfully use the same laches defense that got Country Joe McDonald off the hook (see post 16) even though he was guilty as hell.

 

[Desperado]

Led Zeppelin were not stealing the riffs but merely sampling the riffs.
It works for Rappers, ARappers steal, I mean sample music as use it as their own.

"Sampling" means capturing a sound file -- not the composition, the original sound -- from somewhere else and using that element. That's not the story here and it wasn't really happening in the '60s anyway. This is taking somebody else's song, or parts of songs, that somebody else wrote and either copyrighted or arranged (or both) and then putting your own name on it as if you created it.

That matters because the composer gets a royalty every time your record sells, and take a moment to consider how many records LZ sold.

First off I do not think Spirit has a case against Led Zeppelin, close but no cookie as they say. I suppose by your definition Vanilla Ice did not steal/sample Bowie's Under Pressure?

 

[Pogo]

Led Zeppelin were not stealing the riffs but merely sampling the riffs.
It works for Rappers, ARappers steal, I mean sample music as use it as their own.

i dont know....when you record the song and dont give the people your "sampling" any credit it kinda says steal to me..... if they would say in the liner notes that the song was taken from such and such a song it may make a difference but i never remember seeing any of that in Zeps liner notes....

Indeed, the songs they directly ripped off were attributed to "Page and Plant".

I think the first time I became aware of all this was while poring through the record library at a radio station I came across a multi-record set of a live blues festival from about 1964. I don't remember the name of the collection but you could more or less drop the needle in a certain order and come up with most of the material from the first LZ album, done acoustically by black people who apparently possessed time machines. And when I say the same songs I mean lyric for lyric and note for note.