Zone1 Lawsuit alleges Harvard gives preferential treatment to legacy admissions, who are ‘overwhelmingly’ White

[Hector12]

Um, because if you want to excell in those fields, you come to America where we are working on them.

The point is, despite spending the m ost on education, we trail other G-7 countries.

That is because the other countries have smaller percentages of Negroes and Hispanics.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't see legacy admissions ever being ruled unconstitutional. There is too much money involved. The rules for the rich are different than those for the common citizen. They always have been and always will be.

Are you happy being a peasant?

The reality, many universities are ALREADY eliminating legacies. It will be even harder to rationalize them after this week's ruling.

Major Universities Ending Legacy Admissions

Universities are changing the qualities they consider when accepting a student. Johns Hopkins University’s President recently said that admissions would no longer base admission decisions on whether a student’s family members attended.

learningenglish.voanews.com

Among the world’s top universities, five say they will not consider the family’s history with the school in admission. The schools include MIT, Caltech, Oxford, Cambridge and the University of California, Berkeley.

Deborah Coe and James Davidson of Purdue University studied the origins of legacy admission. They say it began in the 1920s as a way to keep Jewish, nonwhite and immigrant students from attending the university. The result was a mostly white, Christian student body.

 

[JoeB131]

That is because the other countries have smaller percentages of Negroes and Hispanics.

I'm sure that's your answer to everything...

Some black person is to blame.

You stub your toe, damned black people.

 

[JoeB131]

UHH were talking about legacy enrolments, NOT racial favoritism.

Legacies were about racial favoritism. They were meant to keep minorities, immigrants and Jews out.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

That doesn’t happen. The admission cut-off for blacks is much lower than for Jews, assuming they’re white.

I don't understand your explanation that there could never be a scenario where high GPA & SATs scores obtained by Black students could be displaced by lower scoring Jewish students, I think you specified male. Would you mind expanding on that a bit?

If I recall correctly, I haven't looked because this was around a year ago, you claimed that the young lady linked below did not actually out perform fellow candidates and that she only accomplished what she did due to affirmative action. Do you believe that she had the ability and/or did in fact displace a more deserving/higher scoring white or Jewish student to obtain all eight of those slots?

So there is no concern that Black students with excellent GPAs and SATs are being displaced by preference given to Jewish students with worse GPAs & SATs? which would put us back where we were prior to the passage of affirmative action in admissions. I'm asking because it seems to me that no matter what accomplishments Black people achieve you will always find a way to try to diminish their accomplishments. Persevering and overcoming systemic racism in order to achieve the heights that they have is never taken into consideration it would appear when considering those GPAs and SATs, right? On the other hand, some people are just really, really naturally smart and would have achieved what they have with or without affirmative action. Case in point, the women featured in the movie "Hidden Figures" epitomize what I'm referring to.

Black Girl Magic: African-American Teen Gets Into All Eight Ivy League Schools, ‘In Eighth Grade, I Fell In Love with the Ability to Think’​

 

[AZrailwhale]

Are you happy being a peasant?

The reality, many universities are ALREADY eliminating legacies. It will be even harder to rationalize them after this week's ruling.

Major Universities Ending Legacy Admissions

Universities are changing the qualities they consider when accepting a student. Johns Hopkins University’s President recently said that admissions would no longer base admission decisions on whether a student’s family members attended.

learningenglish.voanews.com

Among the world’s top universities, five say they will not consider the family’s history with the school in admission. The schools include MIT, Caltech, Oxford, Cambridge and the University of California, Berkeley.

Deborah Coe and James Davidson of Purdue University studied the origins of legacy admission. They say it began in the 1920s as a way to keep Jewish, nonwhite and immigrant students from attending the university. The result was a mostly white, Christian student body.

I’m not a peasant, unlike you I am a realist. Money has always conferred privilege and it always will. Every government in the history of mankind has favored the rich and powerful and I do not exclude Revolutionary France and the USSR from that statement.

While those universities claim they will not consider family history, they say nothing about family wealth and Oxford and Cambridge have always been bastions of wealth. MIT and Cal Tech have always been meritocracies attracting the very best minds in both their student bodies and faculties. Cal State Berkeley has been a socialist paradise since the mid-sixties.

 

[Lisa558]

I don't understand your explanation that there could never be a scenario where high GPA & SATs scores obtained by Black students could be displaced by lower scoring Jewish students, I think you specified male. Would you mind expanding on that a bit?

There will NEVER be a case where a higher-scoring black student would be displaced by a lower-scoring Jewish student BECAUSE THE SCHOOL SELECTED HIM DUE TO RELIGION. That’s because the school is not giving “bonus points” to Jews the way the are to blacks.

If I recall correctly, I haven't looked because this was around a year ago, you claimed that the young lady linked below did not actually out perform fellow candidates and that she only accomplished what she did due to affirmative action. Do you believe that she had the ability and/or did in fact displace a more deserving/higher scoring white or Jewish student to obtain all eight of those slots?

No. I said that due to Affirmative Action, we do not know to what degree how race gave her those results. As far as displacing a more deserving student of another race, what about the Asian kid with a perfect GPA and a 1560 SAT? He didn’t get accepted to a single Ivy, and thats because his race worked against him. Thankfully, the SCOTUS ruling will ramp down on these race-based decisions.

So there is no concern that Black students with excellent GPAs and SATs are being displaced by preference given to Jewish students with worse GPAs & SATs? which would put us back where we were prior to the passage of affirmative action in admissions. I'm asking because it seems to me that no matter what accomplishments Black people achieve you will always find a way to try to diminish their accomplishments. Persevering and overcoming systemic racism in order to achieve the heights that they have is never taken into consideration it would appear when considering those GPAs and SATs, right? On the other hand, some people are just really, really naturally smart and would have achieved what they have with or without affirmative action. Case in point, the women featured in the movie "Hidden Figures" epitomize what I'm referring to.

No, I will not “diminish” the accomplishment of blacks once we know that their race was not a factor in those accomplishments.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t support a racist system where two out of three blacks get admitted to Ivy League because they are black (they would have been rejected if white, given their scores and grades), and then get all huffy when someone suggests that race may have played a role in their admissions.

Black Girl Magic: African-American Teen Gets Into All Eight Ivy League Schools, ‘In Eighth Grade, I Fell In Love with the Ability to Think’​

 

[JoeB131]

There will NEVER be a case where a higher-scoring black student would be displaced by a lower-scoring Jewish student BECAUSE THE SCHOOL SELECTED HIM DUE TO RELIGION. That’s because the school is not giving “bonus points” to Jews the way the are to blacks.

That isn't what she argued. Again, Religion isn't race. The lower scoring Jewish kid will get in because his parents made a huge contribution to the school or because he's a legacy.

No. I said that due to Affirmative Action, we do not know to what degree how race gave her those results. As far as displacing a more deserving student of another race, what about the Asian kid with a perfect GPA and a 1560 SAT? He didn’t get accepted to a single Ivy, and thats because his race worked against him. Thankfully, the SCOTUS ruling will ramp down on these race-based decisions.

Naw, what worked against him was that the school interviewed him, and realized that his Tiger Mom made it difficult to interact with other kids because he was studying all the time.

Hey, remember the VA Tech Shooter? Somehow despite having a host of mental problems, he was accepted into VA Tech. When he couldn't really relate to other students, the school (probably fearing a lawsuit) started giving him private tutoring. Despite four years of odd and menacing behavior, this kid nearly made it to graduation before he decided to shoot up the campus because girls wouldn't talk to him.

Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, tell me true, Lisa, do you think a black student would have gotten away with that?

No, I will not “diminish” the accomplishment of blacks once we know that their race was not a factor in those accomplishments.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t support a racist system where two out of three blacks get admitted to Ivy League because they are black (they would have been rejected if white, given their scores and grades), and then get all huffy when someone suggests that race may have played a role in their admissions.

Sure I can, because the entire system is rigged, every last part of it. In fact, quotas (which were never part of AA) would be the ONLY way to make it fair.

Test scores? White folks get tutors and test preps and can score higher, and can afford to take the test multiple times until they get it right.

(For instance, when I was jockeying to get into Annapolis, I was encouraged by the Naval Reserve officer handling the process to take the ACT multiple times.

GPA. - Again, white kids have an advantage there too, because their schools have more resources, better teachers, etc.

That's not even getting into the sheer nonsense of legacies, athletics, Children of Staff and Dean's interest, (AKA- your parent made a big donation) which overwhelming favor white folks.

So, yeah, you won this case, but now you have to have all the other discussions, and Frankly, I don't think you were ready for that.

 

[JoeB131]

I’m not a peasant, unlike you I am a realist. Money has always conferred privilege and it always will. Every government in the history of mankind has favored the rich and powerful and I do not exclude Revolutionary France and the USSR from that statement.

While those universities claim they will not consider family history, they say nothing about family wealth and Oxford and Cambridge have always been bastions of wealth. MIT and Cal Tech have always been meritocracies attracting the very best minds in both their student bodies and faculties. Cal State Berkeley has been a socialist paradise since the mid-sixties.

I'm a realist, too. I realize that the way to get the rich to behave better is to make them.

That's why we don't have THIS shit going on anymore.

 

[Flash]

Why do overtly racist comments by certain posters never get deleted in this thread?

I'm tired of reading the everybody but blacks are qualified bs by certain posters here. If that's not trolling then nothing is.

You mean like pointing out that the Negro colleges also have legacy admissions?

Are things like that racist to you assholes?

 

[Coyote]

There will NEVER be a case where a higher-scoring black student would be displaced by a lower-scoring Jewish student BECAUSE THE SCHOOL SELECTED HIM DUE TO RELIGION. That’s because the school is not giving “bonus points” to Jews the way the are to blacks.


As far as displacing a more deserving student of another race, what about the Asian kid with a perfect GPA and a 1560 SAT? He didn’t get accepted to a single Ivy, and thats because his race worked against him.

How do you know it was because of his race? You don’t.

27.9% PF Harvard’s admissions this cycle went to Asians. Why did they in while he did not?

 

[Foxfyre]

Let me tell you a story. My high school was plurality Asian. They weren't a majority, but lumped together they were the largest ethnic group. In the eleventh grade the Honors Program Social Studies class was run by a teacher who actually believed in teaching, not rote learning. The first day of class he asked a random student his opinion on a subject, then told him to defend it against another student attacking it. In the whole semester we never opened the textbook, the entire subject was taught that way. I never worked so hard in a class in high school. Over half the class were Asians and they couldn't function in that setting. They were smart and driven but couldn't argue their points well. When their grades started showing up, the parent got up in arms and a second class was formed for them using traditional rote learning. Both classes tested out at the same level in finals. It just proved to me the old adage "horses for courses". No race is inherently smarter or dumber than any other race. But some groups in all races fail to value education. A Central American peasant, Appalachian hillbilly or Black raised in the ghetto is not likely to value education as much as an upper-class Latino, middle class White or Black set of parents who see education as the golden key to a prosperous future for their kids. Uneducated people rarely see the value of educating their children.

Thank you. I too reject the nonsense of some races having higher IQs than others. I still maintain environment and mental stimulus may not be the end all but is certainly a critical factor for the vast majority in them achieving academic and professional success. The Asian kids you use for an example likely culturally are likely taught facts but not critical thinking. As such they aren't able to mentally visualize all the dynamics at play and therefore don't easily think outside the box. They wouldn't do as well outside of simple rote learning.

Perhaps that is why people of Asian heritage are so heavily over represented in computer and math and so under represented in occupations that require a great deal of problem solving? I've encountered that throughout the computer age--Asian tech people are great at addressing known issues or following a prescribed routine, but they are too often terrible and clueless at problem solving if the issue isn't easily identified and addressed. Its all in the education, training, mental wiring I guess.

People of European descent who grow up in very narrow and restrictive societies that encourage no independent thought and were never encouraged to engage in critical thinking can be just as tunnel visioned and handicapped in that regard.

I would guess graduates of Harvard who want their children to go to Harvard probably are majority white. Unless people of other races who want their kids to also go to Harvard are having those applications rejected, I don't see that as a problem.

 

[surada]

This caught me by surprise. I knew certain things were going to occur however I thought the lawsuits would be by non-minorities complaining that universities are still letting in "too many Black people" and discriminating in favor of Blacks in direct violation of SCOTUS's latest ruling.

This will be interesting to see how it things play out.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/03/us/harvard-college-legacy-admissions-lawsuit/index.html

CNN - Three minority advocacy groups are suing Harvard University’s governing body, accusing the school of discrimination by giving preferential treatment to children of wealthy donors and alumni, and are citing the recent US Supreme Court ruling that gutted affirmative action to bolster their lawsuit.​

​

The lawsuit, filed by the Lawyers for Civil Rights group on behalf of the Chica Project, the African Community Economic Development of New England, and the Greater Boston Latino Network, alleges the students who receive that preferential treatment are “overwhelmingly White,” and make up as much as 15% of admitted students.​

​

“This preferential treatment has nothing to do with an applicant’s merit. Instead, it is an unfair and unearned benefit that is conferred solely based on the family that the applicant is born into,” Lawyers for Civil Rights said in a news release. “This custom, pattern, and practice is exclusionary and discriminatory. It severely disadvantages and harms applicants of color.”​

​

The lawsuit comes less than a week after the Supreme Court gutted affirmative action in college admissions, ruling schools can no longer take race into consideration as a specific basis for accepting a candidate.​

​

The lawsuit cited that ruling and quoted the Supreme Court’s majority, which said, “College admissions are zero-sum, and a benefit provided to some applicants but not to others necessarily advantages the former at the expense of the latter.”​

Harvard, MIT, GA Tech have been extremely diverse for as long as I can remember... maybe 50-60 years.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Harvard, MIT, GA Tech have been extremely diverse for as long as I can remember... maybe 50-60 years.

And this is allegedly what some want to put a stop to.

 

[Lisa558]

And this is allegedly what some want to put a stop to.

No, we want to stop selecting students due to race while rejecting others due to race.

 

[JoeB131]

No, we want to stop selecting students due to race while rejecting others due to race.

Then get rid of legacies, Dean's Interest, Athletics and Children of Staff admissions. You know the things that benefit white people.

The ironic thing was these things were designed to keep Jews out of these elite colleges, but you still support them.

 

[Hector12]

Then get rid of legacies, Dean's Interest, Athletics and Children of Staff admissions. You know the things that benefit white people.

The ironic thing was these things were designed to keep Jews out of these elite colleges, but you still support them.

Currently Jews are well represented at the best universities. Fortunately, they will be even better represented as the result of the recent Supreme Court Decision. Orientals will also be more prominent in the student bodies of universities.

I am not fond of "legacies, Dean's Interest, Athletics and Children of Staff admissions." Nevertheless legacy admissions often benefit a university because rich families that benefit from it often give large donations to the University. Football and basketball are also money makers. Universities make fortunes from ticket sales. When schools have winning teams alumni are more likely to contribute to the schools. Many people in the area of a university who did not attend that university or any other university nevertheless have fierce loyalties to the nearby basketball and football teams. This is why it is beneficial to a university to waive academic standards for those who have exceptional talent in basketball and football. I have no interest in basketball or football. When I was in college I never attended a single game.

No university benefits by lowering academic standards for students simply because they are black. I challenge anyone to explain how a university would benefit by admitting unqualified blacks who are not talented in basketball or football.

 

[surada]

And this is allegedly what some want to put a stop to.

Some people should get a life. Competition is a fact of life.

 

[Lisa558]

That isn't what she argued. Again, Religion isn't race. The lower scoring Jewish kid will get in because his parents made a huge contribution to the school or because he's a legacy.



Naw, what worked against him was that the school interviewed him, and realized that his Tiger Mom made it difficult to interact with other kids because he was studying all the time.

Hey, remember the VA Tech Shooter? Somehow despite having a host of mental problems, he was accepted into VA Tech. When he couldn't really relate to other students, the school (probably fearing a lawsuit) started giving him private tutoring. Despite four years of odd and menacing behavior, this kid nearly made it to graduation before he decided to shoot up the campus because girls wouldn't talk to him.

Seung-Hui Cho - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now, tell me true, Lisa, do you think a black student would have gotten away with that?



Sure I can, because the entire system is rigged, every last part of it. In fact, quotas (which were never part of AA) would be the ONLY way to make it fair.

Test scores? White folks get tutors and test preps and can score higher, and can afford to take the test multiple times until they get it right.

(For instance, when I was jockeying to get into Annapolis, I was encouraged by the Naval Reserve officer handling the process to take the ACT multiple times.

GPA. - Again, white kids have an advantage there too, because their schools have more resources, better teachers, etc.

That's not even getting into the sheer nonsense of legacies, athletics, Children of Staff and Dean's interest, (AKA- your parent made a big donation) which overwhelming favor white folks.

So, yeah, you won this case, but now you have to have all the other discussions, and Frankly, I don't think you were ready for that.

And all whites have the money for tutors, and all blacks don’t?

There was a chart that showed that poor whites from homes with incomes of less than $20,000 STILL score higher than blacks from families with incomes in the six figures.

 

[Hector12]

And all whites have the money for tutors, and all blacks don’t?

There was a chart that showed that poor whites from homes with incomes of less than $20,000 STILL score higher than blacks from families with incomes in the six figures.

This is due to the well understood genetic phenomenon of reversion to the average. Exceptional characteristics are based on recessive gene alleles that rarely match in the children of exceptional parents. Because blacks have lower average IQ's than whites the children of brilliant black parents are usually less intelligent than the children of equally brilliant white parents.