Kneel!

JoeB131

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I'll bet you are just worried sick that should the stories of Hebrew neighbors sacrificing young children to their God(s) that students will all run out and find a young child to sacrifice?
Uh, the Hebrews did the same thing. Just ask my boy Jephthah, who the New Testament called a hero of old when he sacrificed his daughter to Yahweh...
 

Meriweather

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If I missed it before, teaching religion in the public schools is a violation of law.
Oh you missed it. I am not discussing religion. That is something you dragged in.
 

Meriweather

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It seems we're back to making attempts to identify why your interpretation of Biblical history is correct to the exclusion of others.
I have said several times it is not my interpretation. You would be more accurate in accusing me of plagiarizing. Me? I am merely presenting some of what I have learned (not interpreted on my own) over the years.
 

Meriweather

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I would think it's obvious that Biblical claims to supernatural events are going to lack substantiation.
Then you are completely missing the point of what I am proposing. The very last thing it is about is teaching supernatural events.
 

Hollie

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I'm trying to understand by what metric do we determine that your knowledge is the true knowledge?
Primary sources. Learning the culture and history of ancient times. Dating what interpretation appeared when. I have said this several times as well. No one would be coming to me for any course outline. The information I have learned is out there for any who have the time and inclination to investigate rather than relying solely on what they have taught themselves. Most do not do the research/investigation. They have not the time and inclination, or they believe they can receive their own knowledge by using their own individual interpretation.
I'm not clear on what ''primary sources'' means. One of the problems with the Biblical version of culture and history is that those elements are focused on the emergence of an individual claimed to be God in human form. As we know, the events surrounding the life of Jesus were written by largely unknown authors decades and tens of decades after the events.

Have the many, competing sects and subdivisions of Christianity not used primary sources as a part of the formulation of those sects?
 

JoeB131

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Then you are completely missing the point of what I am proposing. The very last thing it is about is teaching supernatural events.
How do you not teach about the "supernatural events" when the bible is full of them? Come on. "Okay, well that whole thing with the plagues and locust didn't actually happen."

Then you get into a discussion of how the plagues and locust were just 'natural events". Of course, there is no actual evidence for supporting many of the "history" parts of the bible. For instance, we have no proof the Hebrews ever lived in Egypt under the Pharaohs. The Egyptians detailed their history and make no mention of it.
 

Hollie

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I would think it's obvious that Biblical claims to supernatural events are going to lack substantiation.
Then you are completely missing the point of what I am proposing. The very last thing it is about is teaching supernatural events.
How do your propose teaching the Bible without any discussion of primary events in the Bible? The act of creation, seas parting, men rising from the dead, global floods wiping most of humanity from the planet, etc., are all core elements of the Bible and mankind's existence on the planet.
 

Hollie

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It seems we're back to making attempts to identify why your interpretation of Biblical history is correct to the exclusion of others.
I have said several times it is not my interpretation. You would be more accurate in accusing me of plagiarizing. Me? I am merely presenting some of what I have learned (not interpreted on my own) over the years.
You take offense at my use of the term ''interpretation'' when no offense was meant. My point is that your decades of study and what you have learned may be internal to you but external corroboration is something else. I'll suggest that some interpretation of Biblical events is required as there is fierce debate within the religious community as to what is literal and what is allegory relative to Biblical events.

If I told you my decades of study using primary sources conflicted with yours regarding various supernatural events in the Bible, how does anyone resolve that conflict?
 

Meriweather

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How do you not teach about the "supernatural events" when the bible is full of them? Come on. "Okay, well that whole thing with the plagues and locust didn't actually happen."

Then you get into a discussion of how the plagues and locust were just 'natural events". Of course, there is no actual evidence for supporting many of the "history" parts of the bible. For instance, we have no proof the Hebrews ever lived in Egypt under the Pharaohs. The Egyptians detailed their history and make no mention of it.
Not at all. Simply go beyond the Bible to what is known. For example, there are indications that there was only one tribe of the Israelites down in Egypt. There are odds and ends in the Bible that back this up. Another interesting fact is that the Egyptians (before the Israelites ever came up with their account) that certain behaviors might result in the Egyptian God(s) sending a specific plague as punishment. One theory--based on both Biblical and outside information--is that the Exodus did occur--but only on a much smaller scale than is told today. One tribe celebrating their escape, over time, caught the imaginations of all Israelites and it became the entire peoples' escape.

Biblical accounts are not daily journals of facts. They are stories, stories meant first to teach a truth(s), but in order to teach, were both memorable and entertaining. I have often thought there are, even today, no greater story tellers than our ancestors. We give them too little credit when sneering at them for having "Bronze Age Superstitions". There are also indications that some were much wiser as well.
 

Meriweather

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How do your propose teaching the Bible without any discussion of primary events in the Bible? The act of creation, seas parting, men rising from the dead, global floods wiping most of humanity from the planet, etc., are all core elements of the Bible and mankind's existence on the planet.
1. Creation. The Hebrew uses a word that signifies a beginning and end points of time. It is often--but not by any means always--used to signify a day. The same word can cover eons. Students can decide for themselves whether they believe God blinked his eyes like a genii and creation appears--or whether the different segments of creation took eons.

2. Seas parting: Many things have been suggested, among them low tide.

3. Rising from the dead: Yeah, we have stories of people doing that today as well. Books are written about them.

4. The Bible did not use the word for 'planet' or 'globe' in the account of the flood. It used the word for 'land/earth/dirt'.

These are all basics everyone should already know. The fact you don't is why I think teaching the Bible would be an asset to society, not a detriment. Even in the first, any budding atheist is quite free to believe evolution may well have occurred without a Supreme Being.
 

Hollie

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If I missed it before, teaching religion in the public schools is a violation of law.
Oh you missed it. I am not discussing religion. That is something you dragged in.
I didn't miss anything. If you're discussing a "holy text", the Bible, you can't help but introduce a God, and Gods are connected to religion.
 

Hollie

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How do your propose teaching the Bible without any discussion of primary events in the Bible? The act of creation, seas parting, men rising from the dead, global floods wiping most of humanity from the planet, etc., are all core elements of the Bible and mankind's existence on the planet.
1. Creation. The Hebrew uses a word that signifies a beginning and end points of time. It is often--but not by any means always--used to signify a day. The same word can cover eons. Students can decide for themselves whether they believe God blinked his eyes like a genii and creation appears--or whether the different segments of creation took eons.

2. Seas parting: Many things have been suggested, among them low tide.

3. Rising from the dead: Yeah, we have stories of people doing that today as well. Books are written about them.

4. The Bible did not use the word for 'planet' or 'globe' in the account of the flood. It used the word for 'land/earth/dirt'.

These are all basics everyone should already know. The fact you don't is why I think teaching the Bible would be an asset to society, not a detriment. Even in the first, any budding atheist is quite free to believe evolution may well have occurred without a Supreme Being.
1. Creation is a theme found in many religions. I don't see how one could teach Biblical creation in the public schools without making appeals to the God of the Bible. That would violate the establishment clause.

2. In the context of the Bible, the parting of the sea is a supernatural event, Charlton Heston'ish.

3. Firstly, there is no reason to believe that Jesus actually did rise from the dead and ascend to heaven. I would suggest that modern claims of people ''rising from dead'' are hardly valid comparisons. Did anyone rise to heaven? No, there are reports of people ''coming alive'' hours after a misdiagnosis of death.

4. That's fine.

"They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.''

In context, nothing survived but Noah, his entourage and whatever and whatever animal life was on the Ark. There are posters in these threads who have provided the exact date of the flood and it was apparently only a few thousand years ago. If you disagree, how do we resolve that disagreement?


I'm comfortable I know the basics regarding Biblical accounts of history. I'm not comfortable with claims to supernatural events that directly conflict with everything we understand about the natural world.

How would an afternoon Bible class in the public schools present the notion of a global flood a few thousand years ago to those students whose morning classes were related to earth's geologic history or the Triassic, Jurassic time periods?
 

Meriweather

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I didn't miss anything. If you're discussing a "holy text", the Bible, you can't help but introduce a God, and Gods are connected to religion.
Yep, you can tell what people of those times believed....exactly what we do in our World History Books. Are you against students being taught about the thinking and beliefs of earlier times?
 

Meriweather

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I don't see how one could teach Biblical creation in the public schools without making appeals to the God of the Bible.
I am sorry you cannot see how it is done. But let's move forward. May I assume you were taught that God created the world in six days and that science is crock? If so, I assume you still believe that today? (Why else would you object to students figuring their own beliefs instead of reaching your conclusions?)
 

Meriweather

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3. Firstly, there is no reason to believe that Jesus actually did rise from the dead and ascend to heaven.
Precisely. Many believe no such thing happened. Your point?
 

Cellblock2429

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Trump declared a national health emergency in 11 days.....
Okay, the thing is, you can't just declare a health emergency and call it a day... it's everything else Trump didn't do that the Europeans did do that's the problem.

Trump didn't order a nation-wide shutdown like all the other countries did because he didn't want to spook the stock markets. That's why we lead the world in Cases and Deaths.
/----/ OOOOPS Looks like the Governors declared their rights to control their state's lockdowns, it's not Trump's job. Cuomo: New York Quarantine Would Be ‘Federal Declaration Of War’
 

Meriweather

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"They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.''
Precisely. Now read it in Hebrew. This brings the understanding that the waters rose greatly over the land, and the rain made it impossible to see high mountains or even the sky. I take it someone outside of the public school system told you the planet was covered, and no one ever discussed the Hebrew with you? Are you sure you don't want to eliminate what you were taught outside of public school?
 

Hollie

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I didn't miss anything. If you're discussing a "holy text", the Bible, you can't help but introduce a God, and Gods are connected to religion.
Yep, you can tell what people of those times believed....exactly what we do in our World History Books. Are you against students being taught about the thinking and beliefs of earlier times?
Nope, you can't teach Biblical history in public schools with the Bible as the text in that class.
 

Orangecat

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Kneeling is a sign of submission.
Religious people kneel in submission to a higher power.
What are these athletes submitting to?
 

Meriweather

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In context, nothing survived but Noah, his entourage and whatever and whatever animal life was on the Ark. There are posters in these threads who have provided the exact date of the flood and it was apparently only a few thousand years ago. If you disagree, how do we resolve that disagreement?
Do you care that some people only go as far as algebra in learning about math? No calculus, no physics, no trigonometry or advanced functions? I haven't a problem with people who choose to believe the entire planet was flooded and that Noah had polar bears on the ark. It merely tells me how well or how long they studied the story. Is their limited knowledge causing any more trouble than do people who stopped learning math after algebra? I can tell them what I have learned, they may have an interest, they may not. The question is whether the information should be readily available. Or, should we leave the stage only to those who believe in a planet-wide flood?
 

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