Kaz Poll: Am I good or evil? Read first post before answering.

[kaz]

Good guy, definitely. You are creating wealth whereas it was being destroyed before.

A money losing business is an unstable business that threatens 100% of the jobs. You are saving at least some of the jobs where there would be none in the future.

I admire your business acumen. I hope you make a lot of money.

Thanks! And I swear to give as little as I can possibly get away with to the Federal government. Or the State or any other governments...

 

[NYcarbineer]

Until I see a link I'm assuming he made up the whole story.

 

[boedicca]

So much for American tax rates discouraging investment.

Because the rising tide hasn't stopped it doesn't mean it hasn't affected it, checked the unemployment rate lately? And it also doesn't mean that the ongoing increasing tide won't continue to exact a higher toll going forward either.

People doing things IN SPITE OF the destructive policies of our government is not a justification that the policies do no harm.

The unknowns are: how much faster your business would be growing, and how many more people you would be employing absent the Fed's crushing impact of GDP growth.

 

[boedicca]

That makes him a good business man. What's that got to do with his morals?

It's your side that spreads the meme that succeeding at business has nothing to do with morals.

He's being Very Moral. He's ensuring that his customers get what they pay for and, that he is solvent and can meet his financial commitments to employees and vendors.

That Is Moral.

I don't have a side or a meme.

Business is Business. He's not necessarily doing it for the good of the customer, he's doing it to HAVE customers, you know, so they buy shit, you know, to profit cuz you know, that's business.

Being solvent and being good to your customers, is good business. Nothing to do with good morals or morals at all.

Thank you for proving how deficient your moral system is.

 

[kaz]

until i see a link i'm assuming he made up the whole story.

You're pretty trusting of links, aren't you?

If you want to come to the Triangle of NC for a visit I'll PM you my location and give you a tour.

 

[kaz]

It's your side that spreads the meme that succeeding at business has nothing to do with morals.

He's being Very Moral. He's ensuring that his customers get what they pay for and, that he is solvent and can meet his financial commitments to employees and vendors.

That Is Moral.

I don't have a side or a meme.

Business is Business. He's not necessarily doing it for the good of the customer, he's doing it to HAVE customers, you know, so they buy shit, you know, to profit cuz you know, that's business.

Being solvent and being good to your customers, is good business. Nothing to do with good morals or morals at all.

Thank you for proving how deficient your moral system is.

Yes, business isn't moral or immoral any more then baseball is moral or immoral.

I want to make money while having happy employees and customers. And that's also how I make the most money. The left's caricature of business is an idiotic fabrication that you can go around screwing everyone and not care and make the most money. You can do that once, maybe twice, then they learn how you are. Successful business people are overwhelmingly moral, I deal with them every day. The ones who aren't get dragged down by it. The ones of us who are learn about each other and rely on each other.

 

[spectrumc01]

There is nothing wrong with making a profit, and you did save some jobs. The question of morality doesn't really come into play until later. By later I mean, what did you do with your wealth. If you cut your employees benefits so you can buy a new boat, that would be evil. If you cut benefits so you could buy a couple new porches that would be evil. If you layed off good productive workers so you could give your lazy ass nephew a job that would be evil.

It is understood that the owner makes the lions share of the profit, no one should begrudge you that. I hope you make alot of money, and I hope you treat your employees with respect, and pay them a fair wage.

Not all employees are going to be happy with you, but you can't please everyone. As a worker for a production company, I would hope my employer would pay me a living wage with medical benefits for me and my family. I want my employer to treat me with respect and dignity. When these things are given I have no problem giving 110% every day, all day, as I feel like I am helping the business grow and be prosperous.

good luck to you.

 

[kaz]

The question of morality doesn't really come into play until later. By later I mean, what did you do with your wealth. If you cut your employees benefits so you can buy a new boat, that would be evil. If you cut benefits so you could buy a couple new porches that would be evil

So I'm curious on this. What is the difference between:

1) I buy a business, maximize profits including laying off staff and cutting benefits, make enough money to buy luxuries so I do, including buying a new Porsche. Part of maximizing profit included layoffs of people I didn't need, but who needed the money. I have to have staff and pay them enough to do the work over their other options. If they can quit and get more pay and I can't replace them for what I am paying them then I can't do that. For me to not cut their pay and benefits is just giving them money.

2) You get a raise and a bonus at work, buy a Porche rather then donating it to a charity who would give it to help people who needed the money.

Didn't we both earn the money and use the money for our own luxury over someone else's need? Why as an employee would it be OK for you to buy a Porsche rather then giving it as charity, but not me as an owner?

 

[G.T.]

I don't have a side or a meme.

Business is Business. He's not necessarily doing it for the good of the customer, he's doing it to HAVE customers, you know, so they buy shit, you know, to profit cuz you know, that's business.

Being solvent and being good to your customers, is good business. Nothing to do with good morals or morals at all.

Thank you for proving how deficient your moral system is.

Yes, business isn't moral or immoral any more then baseball is moral or immoral.

I want to make money while having happy employees and customers. And that's also how I make the most money. The left's caricature of business is an idiotic fabrication that you can go around screwing everyone and not care and make the most money. You can do that once, maybe twice, then they learn how you are. Successful business people are overwhelmingly moral, I deal with them every day. The ones who aren't get dragged down by it. The ones of us who are learn about each other and rely on each other.

Being good to employees and not screwing them, again, is not necessarily moral. It's the actual wiser business decision, and your post here says as much.

 

[Gunny]

One and a half years ago I bought a design and print business that wasn't making money. In addition to generally scrutinizing expenses and cutting where I can, I invested $100K in expanding our digital capabilities. Then I shut down our production department laying off one third our staff and split the work that had been on our offset presses I'd shut down between the digital and outsourcing. I also slashed contributions benefits (mostly medical) by half. I did hire a new designer and focused the business more on the front end work. The result was for the staff left that we increased revenue by 20% and became profitable.

- The staff who remain now work for a stable company with secure jobs.
- The staff I laid off are having trouble finding new jobs and still mostly on unemployment because of the economy.

Now the fun starts. I'm now buying a print business that isn't making money, I've been working on that acquisition for a couple months. We are closing on the deal Friday or Monday. The business I'm buying has customer service and presses, but no design capability. It gives us a whole new customer base with revenue to target the design work. It's a good business, but the owner's not a business guy like me. So, what's my plan?

First, you guessed it, I'm shutting down production and this time laying off half the staff. I'm keeping the customer service side, the other half are going to have their benefits cut in half. I'm going to pay the upfront money by selling the production equipment and pay the ongoing payments to the seller from the staff reductions. So I get the business for free. At the same time, I am moving my business to their facility (theirs is bigger) and negotiated a rent cut. So I cut my rent in less then half and eliminate double payments for utilities, phones, insurance, etc. And I save money in production because digital and outsourcing is cheaper. I get the business for free and even make money before I even start to sell design work to their customers.

So, am I:

Good - The 60% of the staff remaining instead of worrying about their business shutting down all the time are a lot happier and working for a profitable company on the upswing. There will be raises at the end of the year instead of job cuts.

Evil - 40% of the staff are gone, the rest have had benefit cuts and I made an evil profit doing it.

What am I?

I'm voting evil. Profit, disgusting.

Offhand I'd say you're in the wrong subforum.

 

[kaz]

Thank you for proving how deficient your moral system is.

Yes, business isn't moral or immoral any more then baseball is moral or immoral.

I want to make money while having happy employees and customers. And that's also how I make the most money. The left's caricature of business is an idiotic fabrication that you can go around screwing everyone and not care and make the most money. You can do that once, maybe twice, then they learn how you are. Successful business people are overwhelmingly moral, I deal with them every day. The ones who aren't get dragged down by it. The ones of us who are learn about each other and rely on each other.

Being good to employees and not screwing them, again, is not necessarily moral. It's the actual wiser business decision, and your post here says as much.

I am good to my employees, that wasn't my question. My post only says a lot to you because you what you want to see, not what I said. Try reading it more carefully and answer the question actually posed.

 

[kaz]

I'm voting evil. Profit, disgusting.

Offhand I'd say you're in the wrong subforum.

My God man, aren't you reading all the corporate profit posts? The post is referring to the political implications of my situation, as demonstrated by my conclusion and that's the nature of my question. You seriously didn't see that?

 

[G.T.]

Yes, business isn't moral or immoral any more then baseball is moral or immoral.

I want to make money while having happy employees and customers. And that's also how I make the most money. The left's caricature of business is an idiotic fabrication that you can go around screwing everyone and not care and make the most money. You can do that once, maybe twice, then they learn how you are. Successful business people are overwhelmingly moral, I deal with them every day. The ones who aren't get dragged down by it. The ones of us who are learn about each other and rely on each other.

Being good to employees and not screwing them, again, is not necessarily moral. It's the actual wiser business decision, and your post here says as much.

I am good to my employees, that wasn't my question. My post only says a lot to you because you what you want to see, not what I said. Try reading it more carefully and answer the question actually posed.

My answer to your question was neither.

You went on, by this post which was in response, to a response, to one of my posts, and called my position a caricature.



That is not true.

It's obvious to be good to your employees, as a business man.

It's obvious even if you're the most immoral person on the planet, because -> it's the better BUSINESS decision. So, I again say, being good to your employees does not necessarily have ANY MORAL implications, at all.

 

[kaz]

Being good to employees and not screwing them, again, is not necessarily moral. It's the actual wiser business decision, and your post here says as much.

I am good to my employees, that wasn't my question. My post only says a lot to you because you what you want to see, not what I said. Try reading it more carefully and answer the question actually posed.

My answer to your question was neither.

You went on, by this post which was in response, to a response, to one of my posts, and called my position a caricature.



That is not true.

It's obvious to be good to your employees, as a business man.

OK, I guess you can't get past your hate of corporations and the rich bastards who run them to see the actual question which is about the money.

It's obvious even if you're the most immoral person on the planet, because -> it's the better BUSINESS decision. So, I again say, being good to your employees does not necessarily have ANY MORAL implications, at all.

In theory I agree with you. But I've never met a business man who pulled it off. Immoral people are immoral, they don't act moral for money. At least not over any period of time.

 

[G.T.]

I am good to my employees, that wasn't my question. My post only says a lot to you because you what you want to see, not what I said. Try reading it more carefully and answer the question actually posed.

My answer to your question was neither.

You went on, by this post which was in response, to a response, to one of my posts, and called my position a caricature.



That is not true.

It's obvious to be good to your employees, as a business man.

OK, I guess you can't get past your hate of corporations and the rich bastards who run them to see the actual question which is about the money.

It's obvious even if you're the most immoral person on the planet, because -> it's the better BUSINESS decision. So, I again say, being good to your employees does not necessarily have ANY MORAL implications, at all.

In theory I agree with you. But I've never met a business man who pulled it off. Immoral people are immoral, they don't act moral for money. At least not over any period of time.

My hate for corporations? Where? Show me...

 

[kaz]

My answer to your question was neither.

You went on, by this post which was in response, to a response, to one of my posts, and called my position a caricature.



That is not true.

It's obvious to be good to your employees, as a business man.

OK, I guess you can't get past your hate of corporations and the rich bastards who run them to see the actual question which is about the money.

It's obvious even if you're the most immoral person on the planet, because -> it's the better BUSINESS decision. So, I again say, being good to your employees does not necessarily have ANY MORAL implications, at all.

In theory I agree with you. But I've never met a business man who pulled it off. Immoral people are immoral, they don't act moral for money. At least not over any period of time.

My hate for corporations? Where? Show me...

My question was about the money. You answered what I already said and already know, that treating my employees right is a factor. No duh. But that's not the question, this is the question.

So I'm curious on this. What is the difference between:

1) I buy a business, maximize profits including laying off staff and cutting benefits, make enough money to buy luxuries so I do, including buying a new Porsche. Part of maximizing profit included layoffs of people I didn't need, but who needed the money. I have to have staff and pay them enough to do the work over their other options. If they can quit and get more pay and I can't replace them for what I am paying them then I can't do that. For me to not cut their pay and benefits is just giving them money.

2) You get a raise and a bonus at work, buy a Porche rather then donating it to a charity who would give it to help people who needed the money.

In other words, regarding the MONEY

Why as an owner do I have to overpay because someone needs the money, but an employee can take their check and spend it rather then not giving it to someone who needs it?

 

[G.T.]

OK, I guess you can't get past your hate of corporations and the rich bastards who run them to see the actual question which is about the money.



In theory I agree with you. But I've never met a business man who pulled it off. Immoral people are immoral, they don't act moral for money. At least not over any period of time.

My hate for corporations? Where? Show me...

My question was about the money. You answered what I already said and already know, that treating my employees right is a factor. No duh. But that's not the question, this is the question.

Repeat the question, because if you look back, I answered the OP, and my answer has nothintg to do with Hating corporations.

It works for some message board assholes to assign views to people and then argue with what you assume the other's view is, but it's not a logical, mature, or intelligent conversation at all. It's like talking out loud to make yourself feel better, but not acknowledging another actual person in the conversation.

I don't get down like that.

Hopefully the people that do that on here, don't also do it in real life.....you know, having conversations where they tell their counterpart what their counterpart believes.

 

[kaz]

This thread isn't about economics, it's about politics and all the discussion shows that

 

[kaz]

It works for some message board assholes to assign views to people and then argue with what you assume the other's view is, but it's not a logical, mature, or intelligent conversation at all. It's like talking out loud to make yourself feel better, but not acknowledging another actual person in the conversation.

Then why can't you answer the question?

 

[G.T.]

So I'm curious on this. What is the difference between:

1) I buy a business, maximize profits including laying off staff and cutting benefits, make enough money to buy luxuries so I do, including buying a new Porsche. Part of maximizing profit included layoffs of people I didn't need, but who needed the money. I have to have staff and pay them enough to do the work over their other options. If they can quit and get more pay and I can't replace them for what I am paying them then I can't do that. For me to not cut their pay and benefits is just giving them money.

2) You get a raise and a bonus at work, buy a Porche rather then donating it to a charity who would give it to help people who needed the money.

In other words, regarding the MONEY

Why as an owner do I have to overpay because someone needs the money, but an employee can take their check and spend it rather then not giving it to someone who needs it?[/QUOTE]

First of all, I thought you were a Businessman?

You're supposed to see a net gain for your business when deciding to add an employee.

That's how you KNOW when to add or drop employees.

Like:

Johnny costs me 30K, but he procudes 45K, meaning he nets you 15K for hiring him.

So in theory, dropping an employee because you want a Porsche doesn't work if your Employment is where it should be. (meaning, if you're at the ideal balance, dropping an employee LOSES you money).

That make sense?

Also, their benefits and pay should be where the market dictates, already.....meaning, if you cut it, and they stay, then yea, it was a good business decision. If you cut it, and they leave, it means you're probably thus offering below market value and it wasn't a good business decision. Still, nothing moral about this question. It's a business decision.








All that being said, if these things weren't true that I said above and I took your question at face value:

It varies from person to person what's "moral." Some people find having 3 Mansions "gluttonous," others find it a payoff for their hard work. For me, it all depends on the actual conglomeration of your own personal empire, but I'm all for making my friends and family rich before I give anyone else anything. That's me.