Justifiable Homicide facts.

[2aguy]

The VPC -also- says firearms are used for defense over 100,000 times per year.
Across the same time period - 2014-2016 - that's almost 11x more often than a firearm is used to commit murder and about 4.5x more often than to commit suicide.

https://vpc.org/studies/justifiable20.pdf

Shhhhhh.......you aren't supposed to point out the obvious facts that show that defensive gun use, even cited by a rabid, anti-gun extremist group, shows that defensive gun use outnumbers gun murder by about 10-1.....

 

[2aguy]

Most criminals are desperate people with nothing to lose.

Wrong.....criminals don't want to be killed moron....and right after they run away from the victim pointing the gun at them, they just find another victim who doesn't have a gun and rape, rob, beat, stab or murder them instead....

You really, really should work harder at that whole "thinking," thing....

 

[2aguy]

Justifiable homicide is common in Action Movies. All of us have seen thousands of villains killed in self-defense.

In reality, guns are used much more frequently for murder and suicide.

Moron.....as M14 points out in post #16...even the rabidly anti-gun, extremist Violence Policy Center points out that gun self defense happens more often than gun murder...

And what does suicide have to do with any of this?

Suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue...

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.
Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).
Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)
Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.
========

Suicide rates: An overview

Methods of suicide vary by sex and age​

Over the past ten years, the most common method of suicide in Canada has been hanging (44%), which includes strangulation and suffocation; followed by poisoning (25%) and firearm use (16%).
Males were most likely to commit suicide by hanging (46%) while females most often died by poisoning (42%) (Chart 2). Males (20%) were far more likely to use firearms than females (3%).

And yet Scotland has a higher suicide rate than the U.S......Japan, where only criminals and cops have guns, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Sweden has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Denmark has a higher suicide rate than the u.S.....



France

Germany,

Hungary

Iceland

New Zealand

Poland

Norway

Japan

South Korea



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html



Scotland..



15.7 suicides per 100,000

In 2019?

16.7 suicides per 100,000.

And in the U.S.?

13.93 per 100,000



Suicide facts and figures



Changes in Suicide Rates — United States, ...

 

[2aguy]

So we should pay criminals not to commit crimes?

America is a violent country overall. That is the nature of our existence and our culture. Not preferable, but not avoidable either.

And if we are going to use other countries as the standard, look at the suicide rates in Japan. And Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.

Other European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do...

 

[2aguy]

Here.





Overall, justifiable homicide is 30 times as rare as criminal homicide.

The only reason the Violence Policy Center uses the National Crime Victimization Survey for defensive gun use numbers......since it is not a gun self defense study.....is it is the only one of studies....17 that actually look at gun self defense...that has a low number for defensive gun use.......all the other 17 actual studies put the number anywhere from hundreds of thousands to millions of times a year.....hard to push gun control with those 17 studies...

5 The Use of Firearms to Defend Against Criminals | Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review | The National Academies Press

Coverage​

Perhaps the most obvious explanation for the wide variation in the range of DGU estimates is that the surveys measure different variables.

In the NSDS, for example, all respondents are asked the gun use questions. In contrast, the NCVS inquires only about use among persons who claim to be victims of rape, assault, burglary, personal and household larceny, and car theft.

The NCVS excludes preemptive uses of firearms, uses that occur in crimes not screened for in the survey (e.g., commercial robbery, trespassing, and arson), and uses for crimes not revealed by respondents.1


McDowall et al. (2000) found some evidence that these differences in coverage play an important role. In an experimental survey that overrepresents firearms owners, 3,006 respondents were asked both sets of questions about defensive gun use, with random variation in which questions came first in the interview. By holding the survey sampling procedures constant (e.g., consistent confidentiality concerns and recall periods), the authors focus on the effects of questionnaire content.

Overall, in this experiment, the NCVS survey items yielded three times fewer reports of defensive gun use than questionnaires that ask all respondents about defensive uses.


The McDowall et al. (2000) crossover experiment is informative and is exactly the type of methodological research that will begin to explain the sharp divergence in gun use estimates and how best to measure defensive gun use. There remains, however, much work to be done. The sample used

1

It is well known, for example, that incidents of rape and domestic violence are substantially underreported in the NCVS (National Research Council, 2003). --------------- The literature speculates widely on the nature of reporting errors in the firearms use surveys.5 Some argue that reporting errors cause the estimates derived from the NCVS to be biased downward.6 Kleck and Gertz (1995) and Kleck (2001a), for example, speculate that NCVS respondents doubting the legality of their behaviors or more generally fearing government intrusion may be inclined to provide false reports to government officials conducting nonanonymous interviews. Furthermore, Smith (1997) notes that NCVS respondents are not directly asked about firearms use but instead are first asked whether they defended themselves, and then they are asked to describe in what ways. Indirect questions may lead to incomplete answers. 6 6 Kleck argues that the NCVS is well designed and uses state-of-the-art survey sampling techniques for measuring victimization, but for exactly those reasons it is not well designed for measuring defensive gun use. ----------- Replication and Recommendations​ As indicated above, the estimated numbers of defensive gun uses found using the NSDS have been reproduced (i.e., are statistically indistinguishable) in many other surveys. Kleck (2001a:270) suggests that replication provides ample evidence of the validity of the findings in the NSDS survey: The hypothesis that many Americans use guns for self-protection each year has been repeatedly subjected to empirical test, using the only feasible method for doing so, survey of representative samples of the populations. The results of nineteen consecutive surveys unanimously indicate that each year huge numbers of Americans (700,000 or more) use guns for self-protection. Further, the more technically sound the survey, the higher the defensive gun use estimates. The entire body of evidence cannot be rejected based on the speculation that all surveys share biases that, on net, cause an over estimation of defensive gun use frequency because, ignoring fallacious reasoning, there is no empirical evidence to support this novel theory. At this point, it is fair to say that no intellectually serious challenge has been mounted to the case for defensive gun use being very frequent.

 

[2aguy]

Here.





Overall, justifiable homicide is 30 times as rare as criminal homicide.

I have to say thanks.....it has been a while since a rabidly anti-gun extremist has mentioned the Violence Policy Center and the NCVS.....it let me bring out the information on them....

 

[Man of Ethics]

So we should pay criminals not to commit crimes?

Not criminals. In Scandinavia, all people in need of help are helped.

 

[Man of Ethics]

Other European countries also have higher suicide rates than we do...

Only East European Nations where many people are Atheist.

 

[Man of Ethics]

Again with the Violence Policy Center.....an rabid, anti-gun extremist organization.....the group that created the campaign to demonize rifles as "Assault Rifles."

Are there any other sources?

Most people in USA have seen thousands of villains killed in self-defense on-screen. Thus, most people support guns.

 

[Man of Ethics]

Moron.....as M14 points out in post #16...even the rabidly anti-gun, extremist Violence Policy Center points out that gun self defense happens more often than gun murder...

And what does suicide have to do with any of this?

Suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue...

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world.

According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.: Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000. By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.
Suicide is a mental health issue. If guns are not available other means are used. Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the Washington Post (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%).
Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the Post article. The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited. Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows: Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)
Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics. According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the Post’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent. Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S.
========

Suicide rates: An overview

Methods of suicide vary by sex and age​

Over the past ten years, the most common method of suicide in Canada has been hanging (44%), which includes strangulation and suffocation; followed by poisoning (25%) and firearm use (16%).
Males were most likely to commit suicide by hanging (46%) while females most often died by poisoning (42%) (Chart 2). Males (20%) were far more likely to use firearms than females (3%).

And yet Scotland has a higher suicide rate than the U.S......Japan, where only criminals and cops have guns, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Sweden has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Denmark has a higher suicide rate than the u.S.....



France

Germany,

Hungary

Iceland

New Zealand

Poland

Norway

Japan

South Korea



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html



Scotland..



15.7 suicides per 100,000

In 2019?

16.7 suicides per 100,000.

And in the U.S.?

13.93 per 100,000



Suicide facts and figures



Changes in Suicide Rates — United States, ...

Sadly in these Nations, many or most people are Atheist.

 

[WinterBorn]

Not criminals. In Scandinavia, all people in need of help are helped.

If you want to talk about the social programs here in the US vs those in Europe, I am happy to do so. But in a thread on that topic.

Here your assertion is that the low incidence of justifiable homicides is somehow proof that civilians with guns do not stop crimes. When numerous other studies have shown otherwise. Even the FBI asserts that private citizens with guns stop over 100,000 crimes annually.

We civilians just do it without killing anyone.

 

[WinterBorn]

Only East European Nations where many people are Atheist.

Because Christians are such a peaceful people? lol

 

[Man of Ethics]

Because Christians are such a peaceful people? lol

I am Jewish.

Most Christians and Muslims also revere the Old Testament.

 

[2aguy]

Only East European Nations where many people are Atheist.

Their religious status has no bearing on this topic. You think that guns have some relation to suicide......then try to hide the fact that they don't, by going into cultural beliefs about suicide....it isn't even a good dodge....

They want to commit suicide, they have stricter gun laws than we do, so they kill themselves with something else....

You can't dodge that truth.

 

[WinterBorn]

Their religious status has no bearing on this topic. You think that guns have some relation to suicide......then try to hide the fact that they don't, by going into cultural beliefs about suicide....it isn't even a good dodge....

They want to commit suicide, they have stricter gun laws than we do, so they kill themselves with something else....

You can't dodge that truth.

The single biggest factor about gun suicides is that if someone uses a gun to commit suicide they really wanted to die. It was not a plea for attention. If someone truly wants to die, a gun is handy but not a requirement.

 

[Man of Ethics]

The single biggest factor about gun suicides is that if someone uses a gun to commit suicide they really wanted to die. It was not a plea for attention. If someone truly wants to die, a gun is handy but not a requirement.

No. Most people who attempt suicide without guns do not succeed.

 

[2aguy]

The single biggest factor about gun suicides is that if someone uses a gun to commit suicide they really wanted to die. It was not a plea for attention. If someone truly wants to die, a gun is handy but not a requirement.

Exactly....the Japanese show the determination to commit society by stepping off the platform in front of trains, off of buildings. Not a plea for attention....

 

[2aguy]

No. Most people who attempt suicide without guns do not succeed.

You really don't understand this, do you?

Japan has a higher suicide rate than we do........without the same access to guns...therefore, guns are not the issue. And their cultural proclivity to suicide has no bearing on that fact no matter how often you refuse to understand it...