judicial filibuster=anti-christian???

[ScreamingEagle]

Micheal was offered more money to keep Terri alive by pro-lifers than he would gain through insurance.

Michael couldn't take the money as he had no control anymore of the legal process.

Swallowing prooves conciousness? Let's drop some food in front of her, and if she picks it up and swallows it without a feeding tube in her she deserves to live.

If she could swallow, she wouldn't need the tube and therefore could live. Plenty of patients get help to eat. It also flies in the face that she was totally a vegetable. Why did Judge Greer choose to not allow such a simple test that would perhaps allow her to live?

No relevance to Terri's death

If you think that Michael's control issues (such as not allowing pictures and controlling her parents' visits) are not of relevance to the case, then you got your head in the sand. Evidently Judge Greer chose to ignore these issues which IMO are very relevant to the case.

Deciding the case the other way would ignore Micheal's testimony

No, it would be taking into consideration the testimony of others as well - testimony that Judge Greer chose to ignore. He wouldn't even allow the testimony of a woman who made an actual police report regarding Terri.

Is something wrong with letting independent doctors examine her, because that's what happened?

Yes, eventually at the order of a higher court Terri was examined by independent doctors, but tell me why Judge Greer refused to allow it to begin with? Just about everything this judge ruled on was not in favor of Terri and her real family. Also, I believe two out of the five court-ordered doctors stated that there was hope for Terri. Why did Judge Greer choose to ignore the possibility and choose death for her instead when some hope existed per some of the medical examiners?

Because the abuse is fictional or extremely speculative at best

Well then - because it can't be proven, I guess the judge should just completely ignore the evidence of broken bones on old scans and the many (87 i think) complaints? What about circumstantial evidence? And just how do you explain the FACT of the broken bones and the dozens of complaints?

The court system doesn't answer to Congress

Evidently not the liberal activist court. The summons was perfectly legal.

The court system doesn't answer to the Catholic Church

No, but Judge Greer also did not take into consideration the faith of Terri, did he? Obviously the liberal court does not value religious beliefs of the persons they are giving death sentences to.

 

[GotZoom]

Michael couldn't take the money as he had no control anymore of the legal process. But if he could've you can bet he would've.

He was offered over 10 million dollars and didn't take it.

Schiavo's husband rejects $1 million to bow out
Calif. man's bid to keep woman on life support called ‘offensive’

The Associated Press
Updated: 2:22 a.m. ET March 12, 2005

TAMPA, Fla. - A man fighting to have a feeding tube removed from his brain-damaged wife on Friday rejected a California businessman’s offer to pay him $1 million to give up his right to decide her medical treatment.

Thursday’s offer, which the husband’s attorney labeled “offensive,” came hours after a judge refused to let the state’s social services agency intervene — a move that would have delayed next week’s scheduled removal of the tube.

Other such offers, including one for $10 million, had already been made and rejected by Michael Schiavo, said his attorney, George Felos.

Terri Schiavo’s parents are trying to keep her alive, but Michael Schiavo contends he had once promised his wife he would not keep her alive by artificial means before she suffered a heart attack 15 years ago. Now 41, she has lived since then in what court-appointed doctors call a persistent vegetative state.

Even if the husband did walk away, Felos said, there is still a court order requiring removal of the tube at 1 p.m. next Friday. A judge ordered that the feedings be stopped after finding “clear and convincing” evidence that she would not want to be kept alive in her current state.

 

[dilloduck]

He was offered over 10 million dollars and didn't take it.

Schiavo's husband rejects $1 million to bow out
Calif. man's bid to keep woman on life support called ‘offensive’

The Associated Press
Updated: 2:22 a.m. ET March 12, 2005

TAMPA, Fla. - A man fighting to have a feeding tube removed from his brain-damaged wife on Friday rejected a California businessman’s offer to pay him $1 million to give up his right to decide her medical treatment.

Thursday’s offer, which the husband’s attorney labeled “offensive,” came hours after a judge refused to let the state’s social services agency intervene — a move that would have delayed next week’s scheduled removal of the tube.

Other such offers, including one for $10 million, had already been made and rejected by Michael Schiavo, said his attorney, George Felos.

Terri Schiavo’s parents are trying to keep her alive, but Michael Schiavo contends he had once promised his wife he would not keep her alive by artificial means before she suffered a heart attack 15 years ago. Now 41, she has lived since then in what court-appointed doctors call a persistent vegetative state.

Even if the husband did walk away, Felos said, there is still a court order requiring removal of the tube at 1 p.m. next Friday. A judge ordered that the feedings be stopped after finding “clear and convincing” evidence that she would not want to be kept alive in her current state.

It was all about control---not money

 

[GotZoom]

It was all about control---not money

So...instead of passing on over 10 million dollars because he wanted to fulfill his promise to his wife, he passed on 10 million dollars because he didn't want to give up control.

Control of what?

 

[no1tovote4]

It was all about control---not money

I think it became personal when the family attempted to demonize him. There was no way he was going to let "those people" make choices regarding her at that point. It was a little childish but it always seems so easy to make the best choice when looking from the outside in. It may be he never used introspection to study his choices and their effect on the family.

I mean there is evidence the family suggested to him to get into another relationship then later used it against him.

I am not saying I agree with the courts or his decisions, but it may be the very demonization that insured he would never give up on what he convinced himself was right.

 

[GotZoom]

I think it became personal when the family attempted to demonize him. There was no way he was going to let "those people" make choices regarding her at that point. It was a little childish but it always seems so easy to make the best choice when looking from the outside in. It may be he never used introspection to study his choices and their effect on the family.

I mean there is evidence the family suggested to him to get into another relationship then later used it against him.

I am not saying I agree with the courts or his decisions, but it may be the very demonization that insured he would never give up on what he convinced himself was right.

I will agree with this as a reason also. Despite of his actions outside of the marriage (which in a way I agree with, and disagree with), he always maintained that this is what they agreed upon.

Perhaps if her parents hadn't been the way they were, he would have quietly walked away.

Even without the money.

 

[IControlThePast]

Michael couldn't take the money as he had no control anymore of the legal process.

If his purpose to control the legal process was to get money, he wouldn't need to control it anymore once he recieved the money from pro-lifers.

If she could swallow, she wouldn't need the tube and therefore could live. Plenty of patients get help to eat. It also flies in the face that she was totally a vegetable. Why did Judge Greer choose to not allow such a simple test that would perhaps allow her to live?

Because you can still be in a PVS even if you can swallow.

If you think that Michael's control issues (such as not allowing pictures and controlling her parents' visits) are not of relevance to the case, then you got your head in the sand. Evidently Judge Greer chose to ignore these issues which IMO are very relevant to the case.

Her parents could have gone through their nervous breakdown when he didn't give them any settlement money. That would seem fair to restrict their access then if they began to demonize him, or maybe Micheal felt they needed to let go and get over their daughters "death." The PVS is a much crueller form of death to the parents than most others and it must have been extremely hard on her parents.

No, it would be taking into consideration the testimony of others as well - testimony that Judge Greer chose to ignore. He wouldn't even allow the testimony of a woman who made an actual police report regarding Terri.

Either way the judge decides, he is "ignoring testimony" from one side. He was correct when he valued the testimony of Terri's legal guardian more than her friends.

Yes, eventually at the order of a higher court Terri was examined by independent doctors, but tell me why Judge Greer refused to allow it to begin with? Just about everything this judge ruled on was not in favor of Terri and her real family. Also, I believe two out of the five court-ordered doctors stated that there was hope for Terri. Why did Judge Greer choose to ignore the possibility and choose death for her instead when some hope existed per some of the medical examiners?

Many independant doctors and previous doctors Terri had concluded she was in a PVS and would not respond to further treatment. Nobody has ever come out of a PVS after 15 years. Micheal kept her alive much longer than the normal amount of time people spend in a PVS before the plug is pulled.

Well then - because it can't be proven, I guess the judge should just completely ignore the evidence of broken bones on old scans and the many (87 i think) complaints? What about circumstantial evidence? And just how do you explain the FACT of the broken bones and the dozens of complaints?

Many of the complaints were over how strict Micheal was with the nurses to make sure Terri was kept in great condition. The broken bones were from the paramedics doing CPR on her, which commonly breaks bones. Terri went 15 years without a bed sore, which means she recieved such good care that it is virtually unheard of.

Evidently not the liberal activist court. The summons was perfectly legal.

Well then why isn't Congress having them impeached? Again, the Court ruled on the existing laws, and came up with the correct ruling following the law's interpretation. Florida could have changed the law and had the court rule otherwise.

No, but Judge Greer also did not take into consideration the faith of Terri, did he? Obviously the liberal court does not value religious beliefs of the persons they are giving death sentences to.

Because someone is Catholic does not mean they hold all Catholic beliefs. There are many Republican Catholics here who go against the official church position because they do believe in the Death Penalty and that the War in Iraq is just. Most people against pulling the plug actually change their mind when it comes to pulling the plug for them. The correct thing to do would be go with the legal guardian's (Micheal's) testimony.

You have to be careful, because a lot of information out there on this case is propoganda, and quite a bit seems to have been spread from the website of Terris' parents.

 

[GotZoom]

Because someone is Catholic does not mean they hold all Catholic beliefs. There are many Republican Catholics here who go against the official church position because they do believe in the Death Penalty and that the War in Iraq is just. Most people against pulling the plug actually change their mind when it comes to pulling the plug for them. The correct thing to do would be go with the legal guardian's (Micheal's) testimony.

You have to be careful, because a lot of information out there on this case is propoganda, and quite a bit seems to have been spread from the website of Terris' parents.

I agree with all of this but I will add to this one part about Catholics and their beliefs.

John Kerry - Catholic - Pro-Choice.

Totally against the Catholic doctrine.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Because you can still be in a PVS even if you can swallow.

Do you swallow, ICTP?

 

[IControlThePast]

I agree with all of this but I will add to this one part about Catholics and their beliefs.

John Kerry - Catholic - Pro-Choice.

Totally against the Catholic doctrine.

Yes, I didn't mean to make it seem like only one party has inconsistencies, because both have quite a few inconsistencies with the church, and even with other platforms supported by the party.

Do you swallow, ICTP?

I'm afraid you must have me confused with Naked Emporer.

 

[GotZoom]

Agreed. That is just the last one to come to mind.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

If his purpose to control the legal process was to get money, he wouldn't need to control it anymore once he recieved the money from pro-lifers.

Huh?

Because you can still be in a PVS even if you can swallow.

And maybe you're not. Remember there were medical examiners that said she was not in PVS and could be rehabilitated...something that Michael did not do for Terri for years.

Her parents could have gone through their nervous breakdown when he didn't give them any settlement money. That would seem fair to restrict their access then if they began to demonize him, or maybe Micheal felt they needed to let go and get over their daughters "death." The PVS is a much crueller form of death to the parents than most others and it must have been extremely hard on her parents.

The parents and Michael split long before any settlement money. It is obvious the guy is a control jerk and possibly the one who assaulted Terri.
I think the parents - who obviously loved their daughter - finally figured out the real inside track on the creep. You tell me why he wouldn't even let Terri's mother put up some colorful pictures up in her room?

Either way the judge decides, he is "ignoring testimony" from one side. He was correct when he valued the testimony of Terri's legal guardian more than her friends.

I don't think so. Her LIFE was at stake and everybody should've gotten a fair hearing if they had something to say about Terri's case.

Many independant doctors and previous doctors Terri had concluded she was in a PVS and would not respond to further treatment. Nobody has ever come out of a PVS after 15 years. Micheal kept her alive much longer than the normal amount of time people spend in a PVS before the plug is pulled.

Many did and many didn't. Michael only kept her alive until the settlement and then is when he wanted Terri to die.

Many of the complaints were over how strict Micheal was with the nurses to make sure Terri was kept in great condition. The broken bones were from the paramedics doing CPR on her, which commonly breaks bones. Terri went 15 years without a bed sore, which means she recieved such good care that it is virtually unheard of.

She got a cracked femur (that's the big leg bone) from CPR? Who said Terri went 15 years without a bed sore? Michael? The guy who wouldn't brush her teeth? The guy who wouldn't give her womens care? The guy who wanted the "b*tch" to die from an infection?

Well then why isn't Congress having them impeached? Again, the Court ruled on the existing laws, and came up with the correct ruling following the law's interpretation. Florida could have changed the law and had the court rule otherwise.

Tom DeLay would love to get Greer impeached for this horrid case of judicial malpractice. Your buddies on the left however are out to get DeLay.

Because someone is Catholic does not mean they hold all Catholic beliefs. There are many Republican Catholics here who go against the official church position because they do believe in the Death Penalty and that the War in Iraq is just. Most people against pulling the plug actually change their mind when it comes to pulling the plug for them. The correct thing to do would be go with the legal guardian's (Micheal's) testimony.

I guess that's why Judge Greer's Baptist church kicked him out of their congregation...because he did the "correct thing"?

You have to be careful, because a lot of information out there on this case is propoganda, and quite a bit seems to have been spread from the website of Terris' parents

Sure thing, demonize the parents. You libs make me sick.

 

[IControlThePast]

Huh?


And maybe you're not. Remember there were medical examiners that said she was not in PVS and could be rehabilitated...something that Michael did not do for Terri for years.


The parents and Michael split long before any settlement money. It is obvious the guy is a control jerk and possibly the one who assaulted Terri.
I think the parents - who obviously loved their daughter - finally figured out the real inside track on the creep. You tell me why he wouldn't even let Terri's mother put up some colorful pictures up in her room?


I don't think so. Her LIFE was at stake and everybody should've gotten a fair hearing if they had something to say about Terri's case.


Many did and many didn't. Michael only kept her alive until the settlement and then is when he wanted Terri to die.


She got a cracked femur (that's the big leg bone) from CPR? Who said Terri went 15 years without a bed sore? Michael? The guy who wouldn't brush her teeth? The guy who wouldn't give her womens care? The guy who wanted the "b*tch" to die from an infection?


Tom DeLay would love to get Greer impeached for this horrid case of judicial malpractice. Your buddies on the left however are out to get DeLay.


I guess that's why Judge Greer's Baptist church kicked him out of their congregation...because he did the "correct thing"?


Sure thing, demonize the parents. You libs make me sick.

So many more thought she was PVS, including 19 judges. All judges aren't activist are they? You will always find a dissenting medical opinion for anything. I will stop right there for this one. The amount of misinformation contained in your posts is staggering, so large that I don't have the time to correct it all. If you really want to find out what happened, this neutral website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Shiavo) has sorted through all the BS and you can find the true facts there with sources and everything. The truth shall set you free.

I don't have buddies on the left. Basically everyone in Congress is out to get Tom DeLay, including a large number of your "buddies on the right." You know, the people who have control of Congress.

If the US Law was solely Baptist we would live in a Theocracy. Instead the law will conflict with Baptist beliefs.

This last statement is the funniest. For all the "demonizing" of Micheal that you've alone done in the past couple days (like how Mike wanted her dead and was in it only for the money, he beat her, etc) for you to reprimand me for saying information on the Shindler's website is incorrect is extremely hypocritical.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

So many more thought she was PVS, including 19 judges. All judges aren't activist are they? You will always find a dissenting medical opinion for anything. I will stop right there for this one. The amount of misinformation contained in your posts is staggering, so large that I don't have the time to correct it all. If you really want to find out what happened, this neutral website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Shiavo) has sorted through all the BS and you can find the true facts there with sources and everything. The truth shall set you free.

I don't have buddies on the left. Basically everyone in Congress is out to get Tom DeLay, including a large number of your "buddies on the right." You know, the people who have control of Congress.

If the US Law was solely Baptist we would live in a Theocracy. Instead the law will conflict with Baptist beliefs.

This last statement is the funniest. For all the "demonizing" of Micheal that you've alone done in the past couple days (like how Mike wanted her dead and was in it only for the money, he beat her, etc) for you to reprimand me for saying information on the Shindler's website is incorrect is extremely hypocritical.

The 19 judges just rubber stamped the previous decisions based on the same cursory medical exam by one doctor.

 

[musicman]

So many more thought she was PVS, including 19 judges.

Allow me to amplify RWA's statement, and try to clear up this rather persistent distortion of the truth. The only "finding of fact" by these 19 judges was the upholding of Judge Greer as the sole finder of fact. Was this improper? Did Judge Greer act in a stubborn, capricious manner? Beats me; that's for others to decide. But let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that the "facts" have been upheld by numerous judges. That's a false and misleading statement.

Basically everyone in Congress is out to get Tom DeLay, including a large number of your "buddies on the right."

Any human enterprise is, by definition, fraught with imperfection. A good number of Republicans insist on pissing their pants every time George Soros says, "Piss your pants". We'll just keep telling the truth and hope for the best.

If the US Law was solely Baptist we would live in a Theocracy.

Baptists believe in the Gospel. According to the Gospel, the whole point of this wild and wacky exercise we call life on earth is man's free will. A theocrat would make a poor Christian; a Christian, a poor theocrat.

"Christian theocracy" is, then, a contradiction in terms.

 

[IControlThePast]

Allow me to amplify RWA's statement, and try to clear up this rather persistent distortion of the truth. The only "finding of fact" by these 19 judges was the upholding of Judge Greer as the sole finder of fact. Was this improper? Did Judge Greer act in a stubborn, capricious manner? Beats me; that's for others to decide. But let's disabuse ourselves of the notion that the "facts" have been upheld by numerous judges. That's a false and misleading statement.

The decision has been upheld by 19 appeals courts. The comments from them are they would have ruled the way Greer did. The independant doctors and Micheal's doctors said Terri was in a PVS. Unsuprisingly, the Schindler's doctors said otherwise. I wouldn't call the Shiavo's family dotor's years of observation or Judge Greer's 6 hour observation cursory.

Baptists believe in the Gospel. According to the Gospel, the whole point of this wild and wacky exercise we call life on earth is man's free will. A theocrat would make a poor Christian; a Christian, a poor theocrat.

"Christian theocracy" is, then, a contradiction in terms.

That is why Christian Theocrats provide me with entertainment

 

[musicman]

The decision has been upheld by 19 appeals courts.

The only thing upheld by the appeals courts was Judge Greer's standing as the sole finder of fact. Did they shirk their duties? Did Greer behave improperly? I don't know, man - it ain't my call. But to say that this case has been heard and heard and heard is disingenuous - deliberately so, in some instances. I'd be personally and incidentally interested in seeing a link to some of these comments, but, in the final analysis, they are immaterial. "Coulda, shoulda, woulda" doesn't really have any bearing on a court ruling.

Immaterial also - to yours and my discussion, at any rate - is your reference to anyone's doctors, anyone's opinion of a PVS, or any of Judge Greer's observations. I certainly have my own personal feelings about all the aspects of this case, but I have been careful to limit my statements to the hard, provable legalities involved. I think the truth has gotten a lousy shake in this deal, and I think the MSM/DNC are behind it. This is where I've drawn my line; there's no help for Terri Schiavo now. I'd appreciate it if you'd debate me on the points you and I are actually debating.

That is why Christian Theocrats provide me with entertainment

I see. Well - you have yourself a large time there, man.

 

[dilloduck]

The decision has been upheld by 19 appeals courts. The comments from them are they would have ruled the way Greer did. The independant doctors and Micheal's doctors said Terri was in a PVS. Unsuprisingly, the Schindler's doctors said otherwise. I wouldn't call the Shiavo's family dotor's years of observation or Judge Greer's 6 hour observation cursory.




That is why Christian Theocrats provide me with entertainment

They're just toying with ya until your ready for some answers.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

So many more thought she was PVS, including 19 judges. All judges aren't activist are they? You will always find a dissenting medical opinion for anything. I will stop right there for this one. The amount of misinformation contained in your posts is staggering, so large that I don't have the time to correct it all. If you really want to find out what happened, this neutral website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Shiavo) has sorted through all the BS and you can find the true facts there with sources and everything. The truth shall set you free.

I don't have buddies on the left. Basically everyone in Congress is out to get Tom DeLay, including a large number of your "buddies on the right." You know, the people who have control of Congress.

If the US Law was solely Baptist we would live in a Theocracy. Instead the law will conflict with Baptist beliefs.

This last statement is the funniest. For all the "demonizing" of Micheal that you've alone done in the past couple days (like how Mike wanted her dead and was in it only for the money, he beat her, etc) for you to reprimand me for saying information on the Shindler's website is incorrect is extremely hypocritical.

Please identify exactly what misinformation. I think others here pretty well addressed most of your statements. And of course we do not live in a theocracy - you are getting hysterical.

You think it's funny for loving parents to suspect a questionable husband who's determined to control his wife even past her death? Here's a couple of quotes from your referenced site that you say deals in the truth:

A bone scan [34] (http://www.hospicepatients.org/dr-walker-t-schiavo-bone-scan-deposition.txt) performed in March 1991 showed, according to the radiologist who evaluated it, that Mrs. Schiavo had suffered prior traumatic injuries to multiple ribs (on both sides), to both sacroiliac joints, both knees, both ankles, several thoracic vertebrae, and to her right thigh, in addition to a minor compression fracture of the L1 vertebra. Mrs. Schiavo's parents did not know of the existence of this scan until November 2002, twelve years after her brain damage and entry into an incapacitated state.

This alone should be enough for the Court to dismiss Michael as guardian until there were some real answers. However Judge Greer dismissed this issue. As far as I know, there has not been any evaluation that specifically explains why Terri suffered such traumas. How would a malpractice suit against an obstetrician dealing with infertility and the subsequent diagnosis of bulimia prove that these fractures were all related to bulimea in a healthy twenty year old?

December 29, 1998, the second guardian ad litem, Richard Pearse, concludes that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state with no possibility of improvement and that Michael Schiavo's decisions may be influenced by the potential to inherit what remains of Terri Schiavo's estateDue to a perceived lack of evidence for Terri's wishes, and questions regarding Michael Schiavo's credibility, Pearse recommends denying Michael Schiavo's petition to remove Terri's feeding tube..

Obviously Judge Greer chose to ignore Pearse.

 

[IControlThePast]

Please identify exactly what misinformation. I think others here pretty well addressed most of your statements. And of course we do not live in a theocracy - you are getting hysterical.

You think it's funny for loving parents to suspect a questionable husband who's determined to control his wife even past her death? Here's a couple of quotes from your referenced site that you say deals in the truth:



This alone should be enough for the Court to dismiss Michael as guardian until there were some real answers. However Judge Greer dismissed this issue. As far as I know, there has not been any evaluation that specifically explains why Terri suffered such traumas. How would a malpractice suit against an obstetrician dealing with infertility and the subsequent diagnosis of bulimia prove that these fractures were all related to bulimea in a healthy twenty year old?



Obviously Judge Greer chose to ignore Pearse.

I never said we lived in a Theocracy. If our law was established around Baptist beliefs it would be, but since it isn't there is sometimes a conflict between Baptist beliefs and the US Law. Greer picked the law side of the conflict, as his job entails, and was kicked out of his Baptist Church.

At least you're convinced the site is truthful. Read it and it will clear up a lot of misinformation. For example, rehabilitation was tried for three years on Terri.

Those injurys can be accounted for by her cardiac arrest, collapse, CPR, and eventual resuscitation. The doctor who reviewed the scan:

" Forensic pathologist Dr. Michael Baden, provided with the scan but not with her history, suggested that physical trauma, specifically a head injury, probably caused Mrs. Schiavo's collapse [35] (http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200310\CUL20031028a.html), though in a later interview [36] (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148756,00.html), after learning her history, he agreed that the bulimia/hypokalemia explanation was also possible."

We now know that Micheal was offered more money to keep her alive during the Greer trial than he would haved inherited. That ruined the "he wants to inherit her estate" argument.