Zone1 Jews: Do you blame Jesus for all the persecution our people have suffered?

[Meriweather]

Paul didn‘t tell Jews that Jesus was the son of G-d?

Yes, he did. He debated the Hellenist who tried to kill him. So he was sent back to Tarsus. Meanwhile we are told "The church throughout all Juda, galilee, and Samaria was at peace."

 

[Meriweather]

And that he warned that the only way to the Father is through the son?

No. That was John...and John's Gospel did not come out until many years later.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes, he did. He debated the Hellenist who tried to kill him. So he was sent back to Tarsus. Meanwhile we are told "The church throughout all Juda, galilee, and Samaria was at peace."

Well, from the Jewish perspective, that is teaching something very antithetical to the key tenet of Judaism - one Gd. The Messiah was never going to be a deity of any kind.

 

[Lisa558]

No. That was John...and John's Gospel did not come out until many years later.

John was fed up that the Jews of the 1st century were holding on to traditional Judaism and “wouldn’t get with the program,” so he resorted to scare tactics.

I think if the gospels were only three and John were never written, it would have been much better for the Jewish people. At least I wouldn’t have to hear how I’m going to hell from Christians who say they “love me.”

 

[Meriweather]

Where did this dire warning come from then that those who “don’t accept Jesus go to hell” bit come from.

That I don't know, but probably not until hundreds of years later. Maybe thousands. I have never done a thorough study of hell, but it appears to come from the Greeks. About eight centuries before Christ 'sheol' began to appear in Jewish writings, apparently a holding place for the dead, and if I recall correctly it was temporary, perhaps for a year or so after they died. You may know more about that than I.

Jesus spoke of 'Gehenna' which was the ever burning dump outside Jerusalem, and he spoke of purification as gold being tested in fire. But it really wasn't until the fifth century after Christ that the Church took an interest in hell...and then it really came alive with Dante in the 1200s.

 

[Votto]

Not true. Jews believe that people of other faiths can go to Heaven if they are good people. Christians of course take a “my way or the highway to hell” approach, and I believe Muslims feel the same.

No.

Will Abraham go to heaven? How about Moses?

Sure they will as any Christian you ask will say the same. But how will they since Jesus was not even born as of yet?

Could they do it on their own without the sacrifice of Christ on the cross?

It is my opinion Jesus was still needed.

We can only place our faith in what we know.

God is a just God as he will decide such matters.

It really pisses me off when people assume the role of God and decide such matters for themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

That is antithetical to Judaism, and anyone who believes that a mortal man is a deity is not a practicing Jew. If all Jews believed that, there would be no more Judaism.

I understand. Remember, it is Christian belief that Jesus had two natures. While he walked on earth he was fully human, and it was heretical in the early Church to believe or teach otherwise. Jesus full divinity was both before and after his earthly life. The best analogy I have heard of this as a bubble in the air. The bubble frames a portion of air for a time, but when it pops, all undefined air. The Word of God became man. (Christian belief, not Jewish. )

 

[irosie91]

Actually it is.

The text comes from eyewitness encounters with Jesus in the form of the 4 gospels.

Paul was also a real historical figure who wrote most of the NT.

The entire Bible is a valuable insight into the past, as most historical texts have been lost or not recorded at all since most of history has been lost forever.

try again----Paul never met Jesus ----what is true is that the scriptural writings----from the
Bhagavad Gita to Beowulf are ALL important clues into history

 

[irosie91]

Paul was not a trouble-maker, and did not talk about Jesus with any intent to destroy Judaism. He took Jesus' teachings to the Gentiles.

Paul innovated

 

[Meriweather]

Well, from the Jewish perspective, that is teaching something very antithetical to the key tenet of Judaism - one Gd. The Messiah was never going to be a deity of any kind.

And early Christians were insistent there is only one God, and that Jesus was one with God. This was hundreds of years before the concept of 'Trinity' arose, and 'Trinity' came about to insist God is One. Early Christians were not even teaching all of God took the form of a man--they would have considered that impossible. Jesus came directly from the Oneness which is God.

Jesus said many times he was the the Anointed (Messiah) that Jews were expecting. He was clear about that. He said he was Anointed (Messiah) for another purpose. The prophecy of a King like David had to, of course, come after David had been King. Jesus said the prophecy that relate to him came from Moses. Moses noted God would raise up a prophet like him, and let's remember a prophet is one who speaks for God, and John describes Jesus as the Word of God.

Could Jews of that time have accepted that there had been a prophet like Moses in their midst? Jesus had once remarked upon a visit to his hometown that only among his own relatives and and hometown is a prophet without honor.

 

[Votto]

try again----Paul never met Jesus ----what is true is that the scriptural writings----from the
Bhagavad Gita to Beowulf are ALL important clues into history

On the road to Damascus he did,

If not, why the conversion?

 

[Meriweather]

John was fed up that the Jews of the 1st century were holding on to traditional Judaism and “wouldn’t get with the program,” so he resorted to scare tactics.

I think if the gospels were only three and John were never written, it would have been much better for the Jewish people. At least I wouldn’t have to hear how I’m going to hell from Christians who say they “love me.”

This is too harsh. First, John's Gospel is not a scare tactic, or even scary. For example, a rock is not scary until someone picks it up and uses it for an attack. Recall what I said about 'hell' not even becoming an issue until thousands of years after John wrote his Gospel. John said that the way to God was the way Jesus taught, which was repentance/turning away for the forgiveness of sins. John was a Jew, and he, like Jesus, would have emphasized this teaching rather than telling the people they had to tithe the correct amount of dill, anise, or cumin seed or make the proper Temple sacrifice. No Jew in John's time would have taken issue with that, although Temple authorities at the time may have wanted to insist that the proper seed counts and Temple sacrifices should not be discounted.

In fact, as John's Gospel was written after the Temple had fallen, many would have been comforted by his words, that while the Temple, its sacrifices, and all it stood for was gone, the Temple was not the way to God...Jesus' way was the way to God.

Never forget...John was a Jew, who like Jesus, saw corruption in the high priests who colluded with Rome during their time. Any jabs were not at the Jewish populace, it was at those who looked to Rome. Both Jesus and John took a courageous stand against the high priests of their own day--not high priests--and certainly not Jews--in general.

 

[Kruska]

What is the proof you have that someone other than Paul wrote Paul's epistles?

I never placed that in question - so why do you ask? I was and still am referring to the unknown composers of the NT from 100AD onward to around 300AD.
Most likely Saul wrote those epistles by himself or dictated them to someone. (Since he supposedly could only write in crude capital letters).

 

[Meriweather]

On the road to Damascus he did,

If not, why the conversion?

Also, in Galatians, Paul says he was taught by Jesus. Recall Paul spent three years in Arabia before he eventually went to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles.

 

[irosie91]

On the road to Damascus he did,

If not, why the conversion?

Paul had hypnagogic hallucinations. I would suggest VDRL and spinal tap

 

[Votto]

Paul had hypnagogic hallucinations. I would suggest VDRL and spinal tap

Thank you Dr, Irosie.

 

[surada]

Christ is not the only prophet in the Bible to be treated this way. After all, prophets are usually sent by God to warn them about doing really bad things he feels compelled to judge them over in the hopes they might repent and avoid judgement. Moses was the exception as he was sent to lead them out of slavery. In addition, no one likes to be told they are ever wrong about anything, let alone about being wicked. The natural reaction is to kill them or cancel them, as the Left likes to do as any and all truth must be crushed!

Luke 11:50

Therefore, this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world,

Mohammad, however, presents a problem. How can he also be one of God's prophets and not suffer the same fate? Instead, Mo took a sword and converted with the sword for a worldly kingdom and glory as Mr. Perfect was nothing but a cookie cutter warlord. The closest comparison in the Bible was the conquering of the Promised land, but then, Moses was not even allowed into it because he had sinned.

Just ask a Muslim if Mohammad had ever sinned. LOL. Yet another problem theologically. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God as Christ was the only sinless man to have ever walked the earth.

In Arabia and other countries in the region they made their living with trade caravans and raiding for wives and livestock.

Abraham was also a warlord.

 

[Votto]

Also, in Galatians, Paul says he was taught by Jesus. Recall Paul spent three years in Arabia before he eventually went to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles.

Where in Galations?

 

[Votto]

In Arabia and other countries in the region they made their living with trade caravans and raiding for wives and livestock.

Abraham was also a warlord.

Abraham went to war ONLY to save Lot his nephew.

 

[surada]

Not true. Jews believe that people of other faiths can go to Heaven if they are good people. Christians of course take a “my way or the highway to hell” approach, and I believe Muslims feel the same.

Nope Muslims believe people of the book go to heaven.