Jesus on Marriage...

[BluePhantom]

Who says it's a Bigger Sin?...

I want the Verse where God or Jesus says that Lying is Worse than the Abomination of Homosexuality.

And what are the Lies?...

And where is the Church saying that Christ Embraces Lies like the Gay Community expects him to Embrace the Sin of Homosexuality?

I know you won't/can't Answer those questions...



peace...

Reminds me of a guy who said: "Veritatem? Quod est veritas?"

 

[mal]

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

No mention of homosexuality.

So he doesn't call Homosexuality an Abomination and Sin?...

Repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments God calls it Sin and Abomination and even Speaks Harsher of it in Moral Law than Bestiality.

I've linked the Verses Deceiver.

Deny his Word at your own Risk.



peace...

 

[mal]

Lying is a BIGGER sin (in the 10 Commandments) and that doesn't stop Christians and their Churches from lying a lot.

Where does the bible say Lying is a BIGGER sin? What lie are the Christians and churches teaching?

There is nothing in the Bible that says lying is a sin. There is much in the Bible to suggest that it is a very bad idea to try to hide from or lie to God. And the Bible is explicit that it is a sin to knowingly bear false witness against or maliciously lie about another person.

Tell that to ravi.



peace...

 

[Ravi]

Lying is a BIGGER sin (in the 10 Commandments) and that doesn't stop Christians and their Churches from lying a lot.

Where does the bible say Lying is a BIGGER sin? What lie are the Christians and churches teaching?

There is nothing in the Bible that says lying is a sin. There is much in the Bible to suggest that it is a very bad idea to try to hide from or lie to God. And the Bible is explicit that it is a sin to knowingly bear false witness against or maliciously lie about another person.

There's nothing in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin.

Is there a point to what you're saying?

 

[BluePhantom]

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

No mention of homosexuality.

So he doesn't call Homosexuality an Abomination and Sin?...

Repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments God calls it Sin and Abomination and even Speaks Harsher of it in Moral Law than Bestiality.

I've linked the Verses Deceiver.

Deny his Word at your own Risk.



peace...

I already addressed the "abomination" crap. And see...here we go again...."deceiver", "deny at your own risk"......blah, blah, blah. Boy can I call it or what?

 

[Buford]

But, yes, it is specific denominations. You made the claim that 'they' are not educated historically or linguistically. So you're telling me that you don't know who the 'they' is that you were referring too? Of course pastors/priests are human, so are you, how does that make them any more biased or infallible in their knowledge/learning than you are? You just dismiss them it seems because they have not come to the same conclusions from their study that you have?

You are really getting wrapped up in the minutia of what I am saying and completely missing the point.

Look...do you play golf? I am going to assume you do. Think of it like this. Let's say you develop a wicked slice on your drive and you say "I am going to go practice" and you get 100 balls and take your driver and slice every one of them. Now...have you practiced? Absolutely...you have practiced your slice and further ingrained it into the mechanics of your swing.

Now take that and apply it to a guy who does nothing more than read the NIV Bible every day and pray on it. All he is doing is further ingraining the same thing in his head. He is not gaining new insight, new understanding, etc. He is just digging the same thing deeper and deeper into his brain. The problem is that like the golf swing, when you practice what is inaccurate it becomes normal to you and it becomes MUCH harder to correct over time.

So for example when I see a preacher up on the stage and he starts talking about hell I know one of two things is happening and both of them are seriously screwed up. A) This preacher has not done his homework and he is ignorant of the fact that the Bible says nothing about hell at all, or B) he is perfectly well aware that the Bible doesn't talk about hell and he is intentionally deceiving his followers. If A, he has no shittin business up there telling people about God because he clearly doesn't know himself, and if B he is the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing...the false prophet who is interested in his own gain and not the spiritual health of his congregation.

Now how frequent is it that stuff like that happens? A LOT!!!! It's all over the place and whether the cause is A or B the result is the same: the people are getting led on a false path.

So how do you know when you are being led on a false path? You do your homework. You listen to what a preacher says and then you go research it to see if it's true, if it's kind of true, or if it's total bullshit. If one does not do that all they are doing is practicing their slice over and over and over and over.........

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Teddy Roosevelt said this.."A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education".

I'll take Jesus and Teddy Roosevelt over you. Have a nice day.

 

[Buford]

Where does the bible say Lying is a BIGGER sin? What lie are the Christians and churches teaching?

There is nothing in the Bible that says lying is a sin. There is much in the Bible to suggest that it is a very bad idea to try to hide from or lie to God. And the Bible is explicit that it is a sin to knowingly bear false witness against or maliciously lie about another person.

There's nothing in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin.

Is there a point to what you're saying?

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that point?

 

[Ravi]

But, yes, it is specific denominations. You made the claim that 'they' are not educated historically or linguistically. So you're telling me that you don't know who the 'they' is that you were referring too? Of course pastors/priests are human, so are you, how does that make them any more biased or infallible in their knowledge/learning than you are? You just dismiss them it seems because they have not come to the same conclusions from their study that you have?

You are really getting wrapped up in the minutia of what I am saying and completely missing the point.

Look...do you play golf? I am going to assume you do. Think of it like this. Let's say you develop a wicked slice on your drive and you say "I am going to go practice" and you get 100 balls and take your driver and slice every one of them. Now...have you practiced? Absolutely...you have practiced your slice and further ingrained it into the mechanics of your swing.

Now take that and apply it to a guy who does nothing more than read the NIV Bible every day and pray on it. All he is doing is further ingraining the same thing in his head. He is not gaining new insight, new understanding, etc. He is just digging the same thing deeper and deeper into his brain. The problem is that like the golf swing, when you practice what is inaccurate it becomes normal to you and it becomes MUCH harder to correct over time.

So for example when I see a preacher up on the stage and he starts talking about hell I know one of two things is happening and both of them are seriously screwed up. A) This preacher has not done his homework and he is ignorant of the fact that the Bible says nothing about hell at all, or B) he is perfectly well aware that the Bible doesn't talk about hell and he is intentionally deceiving his followers. If A, he has no shittin business up there telling people about God because he clearly doesn't know himself, and if B he is the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing...the false prophet who is interested in his own gain and not the spiritual health of his congregation.

Now how frequent is it that stuff like that happens? A LOT!!!! It's all over the place and whether the cause is A or B the result is the same: the people are getting led on a false path.

So how do you know when you are being led on a false path? You do your homework. You listen to what a preacher says and then you go research it to see if it's true, if it's kind of true, or if it's total bullshit. If one does not do that all they are doing is practicing their slice over and over and over and over.........

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Teddy Roosevelt said this.."A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education".

I'll take Jesus and Teddy Roosevelt over you. Have a nice day.

That doesn't give you license to claim he said things that he didn't say.

 

[Ravi]

There is nothing in the Bible that says lying is a sin. There is much in the Bible to suggest that it is a very bad idea to try to hide from or lie to God. And the Bible is explicit that it is a sin to knowingly bear false witness against or maliciously lie about another person.

There's nothing in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin.

Is there a point to what you're saying?

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that point?

Many of the translations make that claim. Those apparently are incorrect translations.

The six things that God hates does not include homosexuality.

 

[Newby]

Then why make 'the guy wearing robes' comment over and over again if you know that's a dishonest representation? It just makes you appear to have an agenda to belittle and disrespect.

Well it depends on what church you are talking about. Some churches are very traditional in their services and the priest wears the robes, burns the incense, and all that...and some are not. You are missing the point, Newby. The comment was about blindly believing what an authority figure tells you to believe. Read up on Milgram's experiments if you are not familiar with them and you will get my meaning.

I'm not missing any point, you are taking the great majority of pastors/priests and making them sound as though they are all uneducated as to the true interpretation of the scripture, and that they are doing it in order to 'control the masses', yet you will not give any solid examples. It's just 'all of them out there.. somewhere...' You won't even give me an example of one denomination that does it. Do you know any specific churches educational requirements or lack thereof for their pastors? Will they hire anyone off of the street? There are a great many christian colleges and universities in our country, which are teaching correct interpretation and which are not? How can you with any authority make the statements that you have made, yet you can't answer any of my questions? The fact that you cannot give me any details tells me that you are ignorant of them. Over arching comments don't get you anywhere with me.

There are some who fit that description, but is that a reflection of the church, Christ, or the Bible? Not really...

The church, yes. Christ and the Bible? No and that's the point. Why would I go to a church to praise God and find fellowship with others in the Lord's love if the people there are more interested in talking shit about other people? Now you said you have had different experiences...hey that's awesome. Unfortunately, my experiences differ dramatically.

What is a church by your definition? A specific congregation? A denomination? The 'church' is made up of people, people are not perfect, people sin. An expectation of perfection from a body of church members is a bit of a steep expectation on your part. I've never seen the characteristics that you keep pushing out there in any congregation I've been a part of.

Discipleship is one thing....judgement and intervention is something quite different.

And where you draw the line is a completely personal opinion. Apparently your view of discipleship is very limitied, I wouldn't say that agrees with Christ's teachings.

When someone attacks my faith I try not to freak out. I don't always succeed but for the most part I kind of shrug my shoulders and let it go. It's pointless to talk to someone who is not willing to listen.

As far as this thread is concerned, there hasn't been a whole lot of attacking homosexuals going on in this particular thread no, but there has been a lot of misunderstanding. The OP quotes several scriptures in order to support his position that I have referred to as being mistranslations or problematic: Leviticus 18:22, 1 Corinthians 6:9, etc. I merely pointed out the problems with those particular scripture. I could have gone through the other ones he quoted as well, but I figure everyone pretty much gets the point.

Whenever you put the whole Bible 'up for interpretation', I guess you can say it means pretty much whatever you want it to mean. Pretty convenient. Pick one verse that was offered in the op, provide where you are getting your source for that verse, and what you used to translate it. I'd be very interested to see what exactly it is that you are using as a source for your scripture as opposed to what is commonly known. I mean, based on what you're saying in this thread, nothing in the Bible can be trusted, might as well just throw it in the trash, right?

As far as not having evidence in scripture to support it, we part ways there. Any kind of lust or sexual activity outside of marriage was condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. Are you claiming that it never was?

Lust and sexual activity outside of marriage is not a homosexual institution. If you deny them the right to marry you force them into an adulterous relationship. It's like "well if we can't take away your guns, we'll just take away your bullets". How fair is that? And as Ravi pointed out (which I was unaware of) gay marriage was indeed perfectly legal in Rome until it was banned by Constantius II in 342 AD. Now certainly homosexuality and gay marriage was not endorsed by the Jewish culture, but that would make a lot of sense wouldn't it? Christianity is based on Judaism and by the time Constantius came along Rome had become Christian so it makes sense that he would ban gay marriage (although slaughtering all those who did anyhow might have been a bit much.

So the point is that the New and Old Testaments do condemn adultery but since same-sex marriage was legal according to Roman law it would not be considered adulterous.

I didn't say either of those were 'homosexual institutions', but homosexual sex certainly falls into both of those categories. What the Romans did or did not do has no bearing on what the Bible said or didn't say, the two are completely unrelated as far as this topic goes. So, according to you, scripture regarding 'adulterous relationships' was translated correctly? Or can that be thrown into the 'unknown' category as well?

This comment is strange to me coming from someone who has studied the Bible and the culture. The legalities of the day meant nothing to Jesus, He made a clear delineation between the Christian life and 'the world'.

'Most' and 'Many' aren't that very different from an absolute.

Yes they are. They are totally different.

Many and Most are a high percentage of the absolute.

 

[Buford]

You are really getting wrapped up in the minutia of what I am saying and completely missing the point.

Look...do you play golf? I am going to assume you do. Think of it like this. Let's say you develop a wicked slice on your drive and you say "I am going to go practice" and you get 100 balls and take your driver and slice every one of them. Now...have you practiced? Absolutely...you have practiced your slice and further ingrained it into the mechanics of your swing.

Now take that and apply it to a guy who does nothing more than read the NIV Bible every day and pray on it. All he is doing is further ingraining the same thing in his head. He is not gaining new insight, new understanding, etc. He is just digging the same thing deeper and deeper into his brain. The problem is that like the golf swing, when you practice what is inaccurate it becomes normal to you and it becomes MUCH harder to correct over time.

So for example when I see a preacher up on the stage and he starts talking about hell I know one of two things is happening and both of them are seriously screwed up. A) This preacher has not done his homework and he is ignorant of the fact that the Bible says nothing about hell at all, or B) he is perfectly well aware that the Bible doesn't talk about hell and he is intentionally deceiving his followers. If A, he has no shittin business up there telling people about God because he clearly doesn't know himself, and if B he is the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing...the false prophet who is interested in his own gain and not the spiritual health of his congregation.

Now how frequent is it that stuff like that happens? A LOT!!!! It's all over the place and whether the cause is A or B the result is the same: the people are getting led on a false path.

So how do you know when you are being led on a false path? You do your homework. You listen to what a preacher says and then you go research it to see if it's true, if it's kind of true, or if it's total bullshit. If one does not do that all they are doing is practicing their slice over and over and over and over.........

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life". Teddy Roosevelt said this.."A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education".

I'll take Jesus and Teddy Roosevelt over you. Have a nice day.

That doesn't give you license to claim he said things that he didn't say.

You know I haven't done that so why do you claim I did? Having a hard time today staying focused?

 

[Buford]

There's nothing in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin.

Is there a point to what you're saying?

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that point?

Many of the translations make that claim. Those apparently are incorrect translations.

The six things that God hates does not include homosexuality.

Show us how they are "incorrect translations".

 

[Newby]

But, yes, it is specific denominations. You made the claim that 'they' are not educated historically or linguistically. So you're telling me that you don't know who the 'they' is that you were referring too? Of course pastors/priests are human, so are you, how does that make them any more biased or infallible in their knowledge/learning than you are? You just dismiss them it seems because they have not come to the same conclusions from their study that you have?

You are really getting wrapped up in the minutia of what I am saying and completely missing the point.

Look...do you play golf? I am going to assume you do. Think of it like this. Let's say you develop a wicked slice on your drive and you say "I am going to go practice" and you get 100 balls and take your driver and slice every one of them. Now...have you practiced? Absolutely...you have practiced your slice and further ingrained it into the mechanics of your swing.

Now take that and apply it to a guy who does nothing more than read the NIV Bible every day and pray on it. All he is doing is further ingraining the same thing in his head. He is not gaining new insight, new understanding, etc. He is just digging the same thing deeper and deeper into his brain. The problem is that like the golf swing, when you practice what is inaccurate it becomes normal to you and it becomes MUCH harder to correct over time.

So for example when I see a preacher up on the stage and he starts talking about hell I know one of two things is happening and both of them are seriously screwed up. A) This preacher has not done his homework and he is ignorant of the fact that the Bible says nothing about hell at all, or B) he is perfectly well aware that the Bible doesn't talk about hell and he is intentionally deceiving his followers. If A, he has no shittin business up there telling people about God because he clearly doesn't know himself, and if B he is the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing...the false prophet who is interested in his own gain and not the spiritual health of his congregation.

Now how frequent is it that stuff like that happens? A LOT!!!! It's all over the place and whether the cause is A or B the result is the same: the people are getting led on a false path.

So how do you know when you are being led on a false path? You do your homework. You listen to what a preacher says and then you go research it to see if it's true, if it's kind of true, or if it's total bullshit. If one does not do that all they are doing is practicing their slice over and over and over and over.........

Yes, I am, because the devil is in the details my friend. You can make over arching statements about a lot of things, I don't like generalities, I like details, they tell the true story.

Is there a Bible translation out there that you feel is accurate? If so, what is it? If not, and since there are such glaring and obvious errors in any of the translations of the Bible, why after hundreds of years hasn't an intellectual such as yourself rewritten the thing with the true translation?

What do you define separation from God as being? "Hell" is not named in the sense that you are trying to imply, but the experience is certainly described in some detail. That experience has been labeled 'hell', anyone who studies the Bible would understand the distinction.

And I suppose 'researching' may get you different answers, if you trust the source that you're using to do your research. Seems that anything is up for any interpretation by your definition, so how do you know your resources are accurate? You have to start from some source, and you've yet to mention it. You also skipped over the rest of my post, I was really interested in what your interpretation was of the verses you quoted from 2 Peter, and how you came to the conclusion that you did regarding it?

 

[Newby]

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

No mention of homosexuality.

So he doesn't call Homosexuality an Abomination and Sin?...

Repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments God calls it Sin and Abomination and even Speaks Harsher of it in Moral Law than Bestiality.

I've linked the Verses Deceiver.

Deny his Word at your own Risk.



peace...

I already addressed the "abomination" crap. And see...here we go again...."deceiver", "deny at your own risk"......blah, blah, blah. Boy can I call it or what?

Your source please?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Homosexuality is abomination. The Christian Right says so all the time, and non-religious LGBT activists say it too, to relegate religion to humanity’s dustheap. After all, isn’t that what it says in the Bible?

No—and progressive religionists should not use the word. It’s a mistranslation and a misconception, doing harm to LGBT people and religious people alike.

The word “abomination” is found, of course, in the King James translation of Leviticus 18:22, a translation which reads, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.” Yet this is a thoroughly misleading rendition of the word toevah, which, while we may not know exactly what it means, definitely does not mean “abomination.” An “abomination” conjures up images of things which should not exist on the face of the earth: three-legged babies, oceans choked with oil, or Cheez-Whiz. And indeed, this is how many religious people regard gays and lesbians. It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality is unnatural, a perversion, a disease, an abomination.

Yet a close reading of the term toevah suggests an entirely different meaning: something permitted to one group, and forbidden to another. Though there is (probably) no etymological relationship, toevah means taboo.

The term toevah (and its plural, toevot) occurs 103 times in the Hebrew Bible, and almost always has the connotation of a non-Israelite cultic practice. In the Torah, the primary toevah is avodah zara, foreign forms of worship, and most other toevot flow from it. The Israelites are instructed not to commit toevah because other nations do so. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 makes this quite clear:

When you come into the land that YHVH your God gives you, do not learn to do the toevot of those nations. Do not find among you one who passes his son or daughter through the fire; or a magician; or a fortune teller, charmer, or witch… because all who do these things are toevah to YHVH and because of these toevot YHVH your God is driving them out before you.

Does the Bible Really Call Homosexuality an ?Abomination?? | Sexuality/Gender | Religion Dispatches

 

[Buford]

Homosexuality is abomination. The Christian Right says so all the time, and non-religious LGBT activists say it too, to relegate religion to humanity’s dustheap. After all, isn’t that what it says in the Bible?

No—and progressive religionists should not use the word. It’s a mistranslation and a misconception, doing harm to LGBT people and religious people alike.

The word “abomination” is found, of course, in the King James translation of Leviticus 18:22, a translation which reads, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.” Yet this is a thoroughly misleading rendition of the word toevah, which, while we may not know exactly what it means, definitely does not mean “abomination.” An “abomination” conjures up images of things which should not exist on the face of the earth: three-legged babies, oceans choked with oil, or Cheez-Whiz. And indeed, this is how many religious people regard gays and lesbians. It’s Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality is unnatural, a perversion, a disease, an abomination.

Yet a close reading of the term toevah suggests an entirely different meaning: something permitted to one group, and forbidden to another. Though there is (probably) no etymological relationship, toevah means taboo.

The term toevah (and its plural, toevot) occurs 103 times in the Hebrew Bible, and almost always has the connotation of a non-Israelite cultic practice. In the Torah, the primary toevah is avodah zara, foreign forms of worship, and most other toevot flow from it. The Israelites are instructed not to commit toevah because other nations do so. Deuteronomy 18:9-12 makes this quite clear:

When you come into the land that YHVH your God gives you, do not learn to do the toevot of those nations. Do not find among you one who passes his son or daughter through the fire; or a magician; or a fortune teller, charmer, or witch… because all who do these things are toevah to YHVH and because of these toevot YHVH your God is driving them out before you.

Does the Bible Really Call Homosexuality an ?Abomination?? | Sexuality/Gender | Religion Dispatches

The writer of the article is a homosexual activist, not a Bible scholar.

 

[mal]

So he doesn't call Homosexuality an Abomination and Sin?...

Repeatedly in the Old and New Testaments God calls it Sin and Abomination and even Speaks Harsher of it in Moral Law than Bestiality.

I've linked the Verses Deceiver.

Deny his Word at your own Risk.



peace...

I already addressed the "abomination" crap. And see...here we go again...."deceiver", "deny at your own risk"......blah, blah, blah. Boy can I call it or what?

Your source please?

His Heart...



peace...

 

[mal]

There's nothing in the bible that says homosexuality is a sin.

Is there a point to what you're saying?

The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and those who practice it will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Do you understand that point?

Many of the translations make that claim. Those apparently are incorrect translations.

The six things that God hates does not include homosexuality.

Your Ability to Lie with such Ease is ******* Concerning.



peace...

 

[Amelia]

I see multiple posts discounting the the traditional interpretation of Leviticus 18.

Has anyone addressed Leviticus 20 yet?

 

[mal]

I see multiple posts discounting the the traditional interpretation of Leviticus 18.

Has anyone addressed Leviticus 20 yet?

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Jesus Disagees with his Father on this... They just can't find the Verses that Clarify that Disagreement.



peace...