Zone1 Jesus believed in sola scriptura

[Clyde 154]

It gets a little messy since the gospels were written decades after the crucifixion.

Truth is truth, if it was the truth in the 1st century it remains truth today, or it was never truth to begin with.....but personal opinion. Opinions and soceity vary and evolve.....truth does not evolve. The topic is Sola Scriptura. You must prove these words never existed in the Holy Bible to declare that what is being presented is not doctrine based upon Sola Scriptura (truth contained in scripture) without the injection of words based upon the tradition of men which are not found in scripture.

The gospels were recorded as HISTORY....not PROPHECY, its a most difficult thing to record history before or during the events being recorded as historical in nature.
To date there is no record of Applied Science or History actual disproving one line of this recorded history. Just as the Christ promised, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away." -- Matthew 24:35

The Holy Scriptures are unlike that false doctrines of men that were recorded from 650 A.D, to the 19th century and even the middle 20th century......these false doctrines can be proven to be contradictions of both History Actual and the application of Science. Why? Because they are not Words breathed by God, they are based upon the traditions of men.....men make mistakes. Not errors of transmission (as it was men (monks working as scribes) that have translated these books of the Holy Bible, men make typographical errors when these books are written by hand under the lights of flickering candles...but the false books of later history present untruths as proven by history or science, they present themselves as NEW REVELATIONS FROM GOD, they often contradict their own writings.

Regardless of when the gospels were recorded.........they were the product of God's breath. "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17

Peter promised that he would leave a record behind for future generations to learn from the things he has personally witnessed. (2 Peter 1:12-15). He declared as much when he knew that his life on earth was drawing near. (2 Peter 1:16). "........for we have not conceived cunningly devised fables when we make known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES TO HIS MAJESTY."

 

[surada]

Truth is truth, if it was the truth in the 1st century it remains truth today, or it was never truth to begin with.....but personal opinion. Opinions and soceity vary and evolve.....truth does not evolve. The topic is Sola Scriptura. You must prove these words never existed in the Holy Bible to declare that what is being presented is not doctrine based upon Sola Scriptura (truth contained in scripture) without the injection of words based upon the tradition of men which are not found in scripture.

The gospels were recorded as HISTORY....not PROPHECY, its a most difficult thing to record history before or during the events being recorded as historical in nature.
To date there is no record of Applied Science or History actual disproving one line of this recorded history. Just as the Christ promised, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away." -- Matthew 24:35

The Holy Scriptures are unlike that false doctrines of men that were recorded from 650 A.D, to the 19th century and even the middle 20th century......these false doctrines can be proven to be contradictions of both History Actual and the application of Science. Why? Because they are not Words breathed by God, they are based upon the traditions of men.....men make mistakes. Not errors of transmission (as it was men (monks working as scribes) that have translated these books of the Holy Bible, men make typographical errors when these books are written by hand under the lights of flickering candles...but the false books of later history present untruths as proven by history or science, they present themselves as NEW REVELATIONS FROM GOD, they often contradict their own writings.

Regardless of when the gospels were recorded.........they were the product of God's breath. "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17

Peter promised that he would leave a record behind for future generations to learn from the things he has personally witnessed. (2 Peter 1:12-15). He declared as much when he knew that his life on earth was drawing near. (2 Peter 1:16). "........for we have not conceived cunningly devised fables when we make known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were EYEWITNESSES TO HIS MAJESTY."

Seems to me that the gospel writers embellished the scriptures to make Jesus fit the Old Testament expectations of the Jewish Messiah.

 

[Clyde 154]

Seems to me that the gospel writers embellished the scriptures to make Jesus fit the Old Testament expectations of the Jewish Messiah.

Of course.....when you adhere to a false doctrine you must find fault with the actual words of the Holy Bible that contradict your claimed holy books. All Jesus' prophecies came to pass to include His prophecy in predicting the "abonination of desolation" that He predicted would come upon Israel in that very generation. Lies do not come to pass. (Matthew 24:15)

Its simple to determine if any of the Gospel Writers "embellished" the truth. Point to one writer that contradicted another writer within any book of the New Testament. The Bible was written by MEN......men make mistakes, point out the mistakes these embellishing men made.

Seems to me.........that seems to me is a very subjective piece of ad hominem rhetoric. I present nothing that can't be backed by the book, chapter and verse of the Holy Scriptures.

 

[onefour1]

Do you actually think that the God of Creation would condone the Plagiarism of His Words, as does the Book of Mormon that plagiarized the King James Translation......in pretension of New Revelation? Its documented History just as is the strange fact that Mormons once taught that Black Skin People were being punished by God......or that Men, that looked like Mormons lived on the moon, while declaring that bigamy is accepted by God, instead of being the doctrine of men. How gullible does one have to be to buy into this fiction wholesale and attempt to defend it?

It must be beyond your comprehension that God could possibly repeat to other members of the tribes of Israel what he has said to others. Here is an LDS response to your accusation of plagiarism:

Question: Were the Isaiah passages in the Book of Mormon simply plagiarized from the King James Bible?

Yes we believe that the blacks were restricted from receiving the priesthood for a time on the earth. Is it not also true that The Gentiles were not allowed to be members of the house of Israel and also Jesus' church until after the days of Jesus' ministry upon the earth? God has placed curses upon peoples and He has also lifted them. In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we do not believe that any member or official in the church is a perfect man while on this earth. The only perfect man that has ever been on the earth was Jesus Christ himself. Were prophets and apostles of God in the Bible perfect? NO! There is the case of Baalam and Peter denying Jesus 3 times. Did this disqualify them from being chosen of the Lord? NO! Mortal man is imperfect and subject to the weakness of the flesh. Joseph Smith and many others may have personally believed that men inhabited the moon. The fact that it isn't true does not disqualify a person from being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ nor does it disqualify him from holding priesthood office. Back in the early 1800's many held the belief that men lived on the moon. This was actually taught by a prominent astronomer by the name of Fredrick William Herschel in the early 1800's. If your own denomination existed back then, I would wager to bet that some of them may have believed the same. However, if a prophet receives revelation from God, there should be no error in the revelation. Through much of the old testament, polygamy was an acceptable practice even by the prophets of God. We believe that God allowed the practice of polygamy in those days to raise up the number of the faithful in the House of Israel. Again in these latter-days God also brought the practice back for a short period of time to raise up the members in his latter-day church. As a general rule God does not allow mankind to practice polygamy unless he commands his people to do so. We believe this was also part of the restitution of all things mentioned in Acts 3:20-21

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

It is only fictional doctrines of men in your eyes. From my standpoint, Joseph Smith was called and chosen by God to be the head prophet of the dispensation of the fullness of times in this the last dispensation before the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Don't worry Clyde. It won't be long before your eyes will be opened and you too will know that you have rejected God's restoration of his church and gospel in these latter-days.

Strange that you still attempt to twist the scriptures and defend your false doctrine by presenting scripture...........yet ignoring the clear unambiguous text that contradicts your false claim of modern day miracles and apostleship.....which declares the Supernatural offices and Gifts would soon fail. (1 Cor. 13.......still contradicts your false doctrine, you do not make the words of God vanish away by mistranslation of other scripture. If you attempt to pit one scripture to another in order to make the scriptures fit your doctrine......you are guilty of twisting the scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16)

So is it clear that 1 Cor 13 tells us that all things will fail including the Apostles and Prophets and all leadership in his church shortly after the days of the Apostles? Is it clear that the word of God will no longer be revealed unto mankind by God himself but only through the words of the Bible in 1 Cor 13? It's not there. All 1 Cor 13 is telling us is that charity, as opposed to other things will have no end. Charity is the pure love of Christ and the Father and will abide forever and ever. Unlike all other things, it will continue throughout all eternity. You have made up your interpretation to mean that Apostles and prophets will cease after the days of the Apostles. Such detail is missing in those verses. The timing and the specifics are not mentioned. Whose to say that they were to end when you declare them to end. Your false doctrine places a gag on the mouth of God himself and that no other truth can be revealed to mankind through the revelations of God. Such a doctrine does not exist in the Bible. It is a false interpretation at best. God, through the Holy Ghost, is a constant revelator of truth to mankind who seek after him. God does answer prayer and we don't always have to go to the Bible to receive those answers. Never has God taught that he would do away with prophesy and revelation or the priesthood and Apostleship of his church while mankind has not come to the unity of the faith and is still in need of edification and perfection of his ways. It is you that is reading into the scriptures much more than what is there and using those made up assumptions to pit them against a belief that is established that Apostles and Prophet were given to be around for the perfection of the saints and work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So have we reached that state of being? NO!!! Nothing says that Apostle and Prophets were to end shortly after the days of Christ. Nothing says that we are to rely on nothing but the Bible. Christ taught us to pray and receive personal revelation as well as to rely on the revelations given to Apostles and Prophets in his church. All 1 Cor. 13 says is that all things other than charity will end but does not specify that it was to end shortly after the days of Christ. Have the second coming prophesies of Jesus failed? Will he not come again? That is what you are telling us if they all failed shortly after the days of Christ!!

Hard headed false doctrine with no basis to be found in the New Testament Scriptures. Jesus paying for our sin is not futuristic, Jesus has already for the sins of the world, He has purchased our salvation with His blood (Gal. 3:13-15) Its historical, not futuristic. Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself when He nailed the sins to His sacrificial Cross. (Col. 2:14)

I think it is your doctrine that is hard headed and false and has no basis in scripture. And you can drop the false accusation that we somehow believe that Jesus did not come and is yet to come in the future to atone for sin. We do not believe that and you are making that up. Nothing but a lie.

Jesus having paid for the sins of the world while becoming the first born to defeat death/hades is historical....Jesus was resurrected after 3 days. "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." -- 2 Cor. 5:21 Details matter........this text is past tense, not future tense, its US/WE (mankind) that "might" become righteous by applying the truthful words of the Christ (scripture) to our lives.

Again, and Again, and Again nobody in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the atonement of Jesus is yet in the future. Not sure where you are getting this from but it is a lie and absolutely false.

Everything required pertaining to "LIFE AND GODLINESS" already existed in the 1st century.........no future revelations are required (2 Peter 1:3) The Faith has been delivered by the saints of the 1st century......ONCE (Jude 3)

And there was a great apostasy of the church shortly after the era of the Apostles and a restoration of all things would need to occur at some future date.

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Thus revelation was necessary to restore the Church and gospel to the earth. And it was necessary to restore the church and priesthood to the earth also.
Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

This occurred and the church and gospel needed to be restored. Thus a restitution of all things was needed and it came by Christ establishing his church again upon the earth in these latter days.

Jesus knew no sin as the Son of Man, He committed no sin, yet become sin, for our sake He paid for our sins (1 Peter 2:22)........Jesus who was equal to God and thought it not robbery, gave up His deity and become human in order to be tempted as all men in becoming the the 1st born to defeat the grave/hades. (Phil. 2:6-10)

The atonement of Christ was made when Jesus first came to the earth as the son of Mary. But a great apostasy away from the church and its doctrines occurred and necessitated that Jesus restore his church and priesthood. The atonement has always been in effect for all mankind since the beginning of the world even though Jesus didn't come until the meridian of time. His faithfulness in doing his mission could be relied upon even before it occurred.

Its the duty of the Bride of Christ......the church, not to become gods equal, but to serve the God of creation in heaven, the Bride Church enters New Jerusalem in heaven and becomes the PEOPLE of God (Rev. 21:2-4), NEW JERUSALEM exists in heaven as a spiritual city, not a literal city.

Jesus himself taught:

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If we as mortal fallen men are considered by Jesus to be gods then why would you say we could never become a god. True we are not the God of this world nor the God of this universe, but as the children of God, God himself considers us, as his offspring, to be gods.

Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

And as I have stated before, we have the potential to become perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we can become as perfect as our Father in Heaven, wouldn't you think that we too would become Gods? The Apostle John has also taught us the following:

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Here we learn that we have the potential to become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with the Father and share in the same glory by being made perfect in one. If we are to become one with God even as Jesus is one with God would we not become equal with Him? If we have the potential to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, would we not be equal with Him? I think God wants his children to grow up to become just like himself.

,There is only 1 Father, 1 Son, 1 FAITH church/kingdom (Eph. 4:5) There was not one faith in the 1st century with a new faith to come 2000 years later. Again....you can't ADD NEW TRUTH TO ALL TRUTH that was revealed once to the Apostles of Christ in the 1st century. (John 16:13) .....just as its impossible to ADD new revelation to the already existing "PERFECT (completed/whole) LAW OF LIBERTY" -- James 1:25 Joseph Smith and the entire supposed Latter Day Saints are nothing short of con-artists taking advantage of the poor in spirit.

It's not a new faith 2000 years later but a restoration of what came before after a great falling away which necessitated a restoration or restitution of all things. You assume that God revealed all that He ever intended to reveal in the 1st century. Can you show me that in the Bible?

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Here we learn that through the gift of the Holy Ghost we can learn all truth. But this does not say that all truth was recorded in the Bible. We believe that many truths were not recorded and many were lost and needed to be restored.

James 1:25
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This verse also does not suggest that God has revealed all truth and that we are to close the heavens and never again reveal truth to mankind. The perfect law of liberty is the law of the gospel. It is perfect because it will bring the greatest amount of liberty unto our souls if we follow it. We would no more be subject to the devil and we could potentially become as free as our Father in Heaven by abiding by those laws. Even though we have the law, God could reveal other truths that are not part of the law of which truths we currently do not have. If we were in possession of all truth, I suppose we would all know that God exists and that he is our Father in Heaven. Although we can guess at the process by which God accomplishes all things, we are only speculating without God revealing his knowledge unto us.

I think that Clyde, you are the con-artist here and are trying to sell the idea that God has shut the heavens and is expecting us to only rely strictly on the Bible for truth. You have also tried to suggest a few false notions about my faith which are completely false.

For those who would like to read more about the Great Apostasy that occurred shortly after the era of the Apostles, you can listen to the following audiobook on youtube:

 

[Foxfyre]

I. The example of Jesus: Quoted scripture, never tradition:
A. Jesus defeated the three temptations of the Devil with, "it is written", not "I say". Mt 4:1-11

1. The Temptation of Jesus: Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: "IT IS WRITTEN" Read it for yourself! If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture. We just with that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches held scripture alone in the same high regard!
2. Traditionalists have simply not comprehended just how devastating it is that Jesus never appealed to his own authority in his 40 days temptation in the wilderness with the Devil.
3. Three times Jesus was tempted, three times Jesus replied, "It is written".
4. If oral tradition, or the authority of the church was valid, then Jesus would have at least one time referred to oral tradition, or used himself as the authority, as the Catholics, Orthodox and JW's use the church organization as an authority.

B. Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.

1. Never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
2. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.
3. The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)

C. Jesus made over 100 references to scripture. Jesus never relies upon oral traditions but scripture alone. Let's follow the Lord's pattern of relying upon scripture!

1. "Have you not read" Matthew 12:3
2. "have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5
3. "Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

D. Jesus expected the scriptures to be understood by the average man, even his enemies:

1. "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" (Luke 10:26)
2. Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24)
3. But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)
4. "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" There were any oral traditions as to who the messiah was. All were wrong! Some thought he was merely a king, some merely a prophet, some merely a priest! (Matthew 26:24)
5. "What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? (Luke 20:17)
6. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me (John 5:39)
7. "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 26:54)

II. The example of the apostles using Sola Scriptura:
A. Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth. Oral tradition is worthless without the witness of scripture!

1. And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2)
2. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. (Acts 17:11-12)
3. "Apollos powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." (Acts 18:28)

B. Scriptures were read in the churches every Lord's Day:

1. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:13)

III. Powerful Sola Scriptura proof texts:

A. Abide only within scripture to the exclusion of oral tradition:1 Corinthians 4:6

the rcc catechism is a book of traditions and man made commentary, mostly total opposite of the plain bible meaning/reading.

1. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6
2. Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build My church" and Paul warned: "in building the church, do not exceed scripture!"
3. 
   Click for detailed outline on 1 Cor 4:6 to prove sola Scriptura!

Um, the written Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, were almost certainly all created from oral tradition. There were no reporters with video cameras or stenographers taking shorthand following the people of the Bible around and writing it down as it happened. The one exception were the letters that can be attributed to Paul which were in fact letters and not intended to be manuscripts used in the congregations as the Gospels were.

There were no New Testament manuscripts of any sort in Jesus time on Earth however and the Old Testament Canon was already closed with nothing added to it when Jesus was born. So the priests and rabbis had the written Old Testament manuscripts by the First Century A.D. and while they almost certainly had much of the oral tradition committed to memory, as Jesus did, it had all been written down by that time.

 

[ninja007]

Um, the written Scriptures, both Old and New Testament, were almost certainly all created from oral tradition. There were no reporters with video cameras or stenographers taking shorthand following the people of the Bible around and writing it down as it happened. The one exception were the letters that can be attributed to Paul which were in fact letters and not intended to be manuscripts used in the congregations as the Gospels were.

There were no New Testament manuscripts of any sort in Jesus time on Earth however and the Old Testament Canon was already closed with nothing added to it when Jesus was born. So the priests and rabbis had the written Old Testament manuscripts by the First Century A.D. and while they almost certainly had much of the oral tradition committed to memory, as Jesus did, it had all been written down by that time.

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

[surada]

Of course.....when you adhere to a false doctrine you must find fault with the actual words of the Holy Bible that contradict your claimed holy books. All Jesus' prophecies came to pass to include His prophecy in predicting the "abonination of desolation" that He predicted would come upon Israel in that very generation. Lies do not come to pass. (Matthew 24:15)

Its simple to determine if any of the Gospel Writers "embellished" the truth. Point to one writer that contradicted another writer within any book of the New Testament. The Bible was written by MEN......men make mistakes, point out the mistakes these embellishing men made.

Seems to me.........that seems to me is a very subjective piece of ad hominem rhetoric. I present nothing that can't be backed by the book, chapter and verse of the Holy Scriptures.

The abomination of Desolation is not controversial.

 

[Clyde 154]

The abomination of Desolation is not controversial.

Strange that you argue one day that's Jesus was not speaking of Daniel's prophecy concerning the "abomination of desolation"......now there is no controversy? Which face are you arguing out of today? As Jesus stated, "You know not who you worship.....woman" -- John 4:22-24 Jesus instructed Salvation comes first to the Jew.......then to the Gentile. I can't find Mohammad anyone in the Holy Scriptures. (Romans 1:16) "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first and then to the gentile."

There is no salvation possible outside of Christ Jesus, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6

I can see where any Muslim must preach about the Holy Scriptures being corrupted.......there is no path to salvation through Mohammad/Islam contained within the scriptures.

The scriptures are constant.......there is no variation of its content, the scriptures are the only source of calibrating TRUTH, as it, unlike you remains constant.

 

[Foxfyre]

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

I believe in the Holy Spirit. And I also believe that oral tradition among the ancient Jews was so prevalent and so meticulous in the telling that they wrote it down pretty accurately per the telling. And it was the ancient Jews who wrote down the words in both the Old and New Testaments.

Memorizing phrases of prose and poetry, people and dates of history etc. was strongly emphasized when I was in school, every bit as much as memorizing the multiplication tables and such And now all these decades later I still recall much of what I memorized as well as the wonderful fantasies, fairy tales of wicked witches and princes and princesses and dragons etc. that I loved to read and still can tell the stories. If I had continued to do that all these years I would have all of it mostly committed to memory.

And then as now, I can mentally compartmentalize all that separating fact from fiction, fantasy from reality, the teaching stories that were made up from the legends that are art of history. As I believe the ancient ones also could also do as the Bible is an amazing collection of manuscripts containing history, law, allegory/parable, metaphor, wisdom sayings, poetry, prophecy, etc.

It is also important that the Bible scholar understand that their time, their culture, their knowledge of the world, their experience was very different from ours and the words and imagery they used reflected that. If we do not read the Bible through their eyes rather than through our 21st Century experience/knowledge, we will miss much of the message.

But despite so many efforts over the millennia to destroy it, ban it, suppress it, dismiss it from the first manuscripts laboriously hand copied onto animal skin or clay tablets to now, the Bible has and remains the best selling and most read 'book' in the world. I have to believe it is of God.

And I also think we should be careful in putting our own interpretation on the words different from what they originally were intended to say. I look to the Holy Spirit to help in that regard but always allow that my own fixed ideas or prejudices or preferences or whatever can get in the way of that.

 

[surada]

Strange that you argue one day that's Jesus was not speaking of Daniel's prophecy concerning the "abomination of desolation"......now there is no controversy? Which face are you arguing out of today? As Jesus stated, "You know not who you worship.....woman" -- John 4:22-24 Jesus instructed Salvation comes first to the Jew.......then to the Gentile. I can't find Mohammad anyone in the Holy Scriptures. (Romans 1:16) "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first and then to the gentile."

There is no salvation possible outside of Christ Jesus, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6

I can see where any Muslim must preach about the Holy Scriptures being corrupted.......there is no path to salvation through Mohammad/Islam contained within the scriptures.

The scriptures are constant.......there is no variation of its content, the scriptures are the only source of calibrating TRUTH, as it, unlike you remains constant.

The temple was defiled by Antiochus IV Epiphanies. It became the Abomination of Desolation.

After his death the Jews cleaned and rededicated the temple. That's where Chanukah comes from.

 

[surada]

Strange that you argue one day that's Jesus was not speaking of Daniel's prophecy concerning the "abomination of desolation"......now there is no controversy? Which face are you arguing out of today? As Jesus stated, "You know not who you worship.....woman" -- John 4:22-24 Jesus instructed Salvation comes first to the Jew.......then to the Gentile. I can't find Mohammad anyone in the Holy Scriptures. (Romans 1:16) "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first and then to the gentile."

There is no salvation possible outside of Christ Jesus, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6

I can see where any Muslim must preach about the Holy Scriptures being corrupted.......there is no path to salvation through Mohammad/Islam contained within the scriptures.

The scriptures are constant.......there is no variation of its content, the scriptures are the only source of calibrating TRUTH, as it, unlike you remains constant.

Muhammad never claimed to be a savior. He was a messenger. He told the Arabs to return to the God of Abraham.

 

[surada]

I. The example of Jesus: Quoted scripture, never tradition:
A. Jesus defeated the three temptations of the Devil with, "it is written", not "I say". Mt 4:1-11

1. The Temptation of Jesus: Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: "IT IS WRITTEN" Read it for yourself! If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture. We just with that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches held scripture alone in the same high regard!
2. Traditionalists have simply not comprehended just how devastating it is that Jesus never appealed to his own authority in his 40 days temptation in the wilderness with the Devil.
3. Three times Jesus was tempted, three times Jesus replied, "It is written".
4. If oral tradition, or the authority of the church was valid, then Jesus would have at least one time referred to oral tradition, or used himself as the authority, as the Catholics, Orthodox and JW's use the church organization as an authority.

B. Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.

1. Never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
2. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.
3. The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)

C. Jesus made over 100 references to scripture. Jesus never relies upon oral traditions but scripture alone. Let's follow the Lord's pattern of relying upon scripture!

1. "Have you not read" Matthew 12:3
2. "have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5
3. "Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

D. Jesus expected the scriptures to be understood by the average man, even his enemies:

1. "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" (Luke 10:26)
2. Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24)
3. But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)
4. "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" There were any oral traditions as to who the messiah was. All were wrong! Some thought he was merely a king, some merely a prophet, some merely a priest! (Matthew 26:24)
5. "What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? (Luke 20:17)
6. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me (John 5:39)
7. "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 26:54)

II. The example of the apostles using Sola Scriptura:
A. Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth. Oral tradition is worthless without the witness of scripture!

1. And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2)
2. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. (Acts 17:11-12)
3. "Apollos powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." (Acts 18:28)

B. Scriptures were read in the churches every Lord's Day:

1. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:13)

III. Powerful Sola Scriptura proof texts:

A. Abide only within scripture to the exclusion of oral tradition:1 Corinthians 4:6

the rcc catechism is a book of traditions and man made commentary, mostly total opposite of the plain bible meaning/reading.

1. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6
2. Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build My church" and Paul warned: "in building the church, do not exceed scripture!"
3. 
   Click for detailed outline on 1 Cor 4:6 to prove sola Scriptura!

Problem is that the gospels were written long after the resurrection.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Jesus did not believe in sola scriptura.

 

[surada]

Can you spell out exactly what the belief of "sola scriptura" is?

Sola scriptura (Latin for 'by scripture alone') is a Christian theological doctrine held by most Protestant Christian denominations, in particular the Lutheran and Reformed traditions, that posits the Bible as the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia

 

[K9Buck]

The Bible is complete, authoritative, and true. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16).

The verse that follows says "that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus and the Apostles failed to provide all of the doctrines that a Christian needs to be "complete" as Paul stated.

I was an ignorant Catholic for 50 years. Now, I know better. Jesus's church is his body of faithful followers, not a "worldly" institution.

 

[K9Buck]

Jesus did not believe in sola scriptura.

Verse?

 

[theHawk]

Revelation 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

That refers to the book John was writing, The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The Bible is a collection of books and wasn’t even put together yet at that time.

 

[theHawk]

Problem is that the gospels were written long after the resurrection.

So?

The Quran was written long after the illiterate pedophile prophet died.

 

[K9Buck]

Thus, it claims, any doctrine not found in the Bible is a false doctrine.

Who is making that claim?

I know many Catholics observe All Saints Day. As a Christian I do NOT observe it's not Biblical.

Besides, why should followers of Christ heap praise, glory, and worship on fellow men rather than on God alone?

The Catholic Church is a false system because it often takes God out of the relationship with his people.

The Bible tells us to pray to God. The RCC tells us to pray to Mary and to their "saints". You don't need God, they say, instead pray to dead people!

You mustn't seek forgiveness directly from God. Instead, speak to a RCC priest.

And who does the RCC honor and exalt when they come up with names for their churches and schools? Not God, at least not usually. Their churches and schools are named after people.

As well, the RCC is loved and adored by the world because it is "of the world" and NOT of God. However, there are many Godly people in that system and I believe they will go straight to Heaven.

 

[K9Buck]

So?

The Quran was written long after the illiterate pedophile prophet died.

The Muslims should have listened to Paul instead of the demonic entity who appeared to them pretending to be the angel Gabriel.

Galatians 1:8

English Standard Version

​

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.