Zone1 Jesus believed in sola scriptura

[onefour1]

I pay no attention to a religion that was not created until 19 hundred years after the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who was made both Lord and Christ in the 1st century (Acts 2:36).....not false prophets such as exists within the ranks of the Latter Day Saints. Jesus Christ authorized His hand picked Apostles to establish doctrine for the church/kingdom of Christ......no one else. (Matthew 16.......what is bound on earth (by the Apostle), will be bound in Heaven).

Jesus stated that after His death and resurrection, He would lead His Apostles into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit of Truth is promised, not to the world (which cannot receive it -- John 14:17 Again, its impossible to add anything to ALL. Details matter. Jesus declared that the Holy Spirit of Truth would repeat what Jesus was speaking from His throne at the right hand of God in Heaven. (John 16:13). Just as Jesus communicated with the Apostle John to write the book of revelation (Rev.1)..........the others books of the N.T. were directed by Jesus Christ Himself though inspiration from the Spirit of Truth. The words of the Apostles are the words of Christ Jesus.

Details such as revealed by the Apostle Paul who lacked in nothing in being a true Apostle of Christ .......as Peter declared that Paul spoke with words of Wisdom delivered by the Spirit of Truth (God). Peter declares the unlearned or unstable twist Paul's words, as they do other scriptures to their own destruction. -- 2 Peter 3:15-16

The Apostle Paul declared the supernatural gifts of the Spirit would soon fail, when that which is perfect comes (the completed Law of Liberty, the Holy Scriptures)........that same Greek Word "Teleios"/Perfect means made whole or complete. Its the same Greek word used by James 2:15. After these gifts of the Spirit fail.......there will remain only 3 gifts of the spirit, Faith, Hope and Charity/Love. (1 Cor. 13)

The faith of Christianity was delivered "ONCE"..........not many times, thousands of years removed from those who established doctrine as inspired by the Spirit of God...the Saints of the 1st century delivered the faith. ONCE -- Jude 3

There is no "Sola Scriptura" possible when the attempt is made to add unto the "perfect law of liberty". The perfect law of liberty existed in the 1st century, therefore its impossible to add content to a law that is described as PERFECT. The "Perfect" in question is translated from the Greek "Teleios": meaning, made whole, complete, finished (James 1:25)

THE PERFECT in the New Testament is self described. The Law of Christ is His word (which will be used to judge everyone on the last day -- John 12:48). The Law of Christ is the truth which makes men free (John 8:32). It is the Perfect Law of Liberty will convert the soul of men (not a law that did not exist until the 19th century) -- James 1:25, Ps. 19:7

The Perfect Law of Liberty exists within the inspired word of God, i.e, the Holy Scriptures. The scriptures are capable/sufficient to perfect the Doctrine that leads men into ALL GOOD WORKS. -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Its impossible for Modern Day Apostles to exist........thus the false doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, because the canon of the N.T. contradicts Mormonism, JWs, Islam....etc., Far Eastern religions, Human secularism

The Apostle Paul, who was hand picked by Jesus himself, taught the following:

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we learn that Apostles and Prophets along with other offices of priesthood are given to be part of Christ's church till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. In other words, until we come to the measure and stature of the fulness of Christ we are to have Apostles and Prophets in the church along with others who are authorized to teach the gospel. The reason that this practice has not been followed throughout all the days since Christ came upon the earth is because man has fallen away from the teaching of Christ and the Church that Christ established fell into a state of apostacy. The protestants figured this out and broke away from the Catholic church but they did not have the authority of the priesthood to establish the priesthood leadership in the church. The Lord, through the prophet Joseph Smith, restored the church again upon the face of the earth with all the priesthood keys and powers in these latter days. Whenever the true church of Jesus Christ is to be found on the earth, it will have Apostles and Prophets to to lead the members toward becoming a more Christ like people as Paul has so clearly taught.

 

[Clyde 154]

The Sola Scriptura premise is that all important religious truth is found in the Bible.

Jesus would certainly not have believed this, nor claimed this, because during the time that He was here among us, the Bible did not exist, as a single unified body of text; and much of what is contained now in the Bible was written after Jesus' time among us. Indeed, Jesus Himself taught many things that were not in what scripture existed at the time.

Sola Scriptura depends on a related premise that the canon of scripture is closed that God has revealed all to us that he is going to reveal, and that there will be no more revelation after that point.

Like many of the Protestant, specific doctrines, this one was created in reaction to the practice that the Catholic church had taken of making stuff up that is not found in scripture nor supported thereby, and which is often at odds with what is found in scripture, and promoting that as religious truth. Reaction to one error, by erring in the opposite direction.


Ironically, Sola Scriptura disproves itself. It declares that the Bible contains all religious truth, that any doctrine not found in the Bible is false. But Sola Scriptura is, itself not found nor supported in the Bible, so by its own logic, it declares itself to be a false doctrine. It reduces to the logical equivalent of the Liar Paradox.

You are just as guilty as the religious leaders of Jesus' days, Teaching the traditions that come from men, making the scriptures, the Word of God of no effect.

Strange that you would declare that the scriptures did not exist (when the Old Testament Bible has existed for 3500 years).......because Jesus was teaching of the New Testament Covenant....His Kingdom which would soon come with power. Your false premise? Jesus did not quote from any existing Bible because the Bible did not exist yet? Really? Jesus lived by THE LAW without sin......how can Jesus live by the letter of the Law if the letters never existed?

Example: the Lords prayer is an example of Jesus prediction of the coming New Testament Kingdom, "Your (Gods) Kingdom Come........" (Matt. 6:9),which means the kingdom did not yet exist. But Jesus informed those He was addressing that, "Assuredly, I say to you (those Jesus was speaking to) that some standing here will not taste of death until they see the kingdom of God come with power..." -- Mark 9:1 And the kingdom did come........with power (Acts 2)

Reality: Jesus was born of a woman, born under the LAW. Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and practiced the LAW and the PROPHETS ........."without sin". (Gal. 4:4, 2 Cor. 5:21)
To suggest that the Bible did not exist and Jesus did not quote from the Scriptures is more than ABSURD. Jesus often quoted from the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament text.......this Greek Translation from the Original Hebrew tongue came from 72 Hebrew scholars from 15 different tribes of Hebrews.......this Bible preexisted the birth of Jesus, the bible was translated in the 3rd century B.C. Koine Greek was the universal language of the day.......

Jesus did not quote Old Testament Scripture? Laughable. The New Testament document Jesus' use of the Septuagint Bible. Examples: These passages are quoted from the Septuagint translated Bible. 1. quoted from (Isa. 7:14) N.T. passage (Matt.1:23) 2. Hosea (6:6) quoted in (Matt. 12:7, 9:13) 3. quoted from (Isa. 40:3) quoted in (Matt. 3:3, John 1:23, Mark 1:3) 4. (Isa. 42:4) quoted in (12:21) 5. (Isa. 6:10) quoted in (Matt. 13:15) 6. (Isa.40:4-5) quoted in (Matt. Luke 3:56). 7. (Isa. 29:13) quoted directly in the Septuagint text in (Mark 7:6-8). 8. (Ps. 8:20) quoted in (Matt. 21:16)

In Mark 7:6-7) Jesus quotes directly from LXX(Septuagint) -- Isa. 29:13, when Jesus says, "Well did Isaiah prophecy of you hypocrites, AS IT IS WRITTEN.......the people honors Me (the Lord) with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me; in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the PRECEPTS OF MEN......."

 

[Clyde 154]

The Apostle Paul, who was hand picked by Jesus himself, taught the following:

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here we learn that Apostles and Prophets along with other offices of priesthood are given to be part of Christ's church till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. In other words, until we come to the measure and stature of the fulness of Christ we are to have Apostles and Prophets in the church along with others who are authorized to teach the gospel. The reason that this practice has not been followed throughout all the days since Christ came upon the earth is because man has fallen away from the teaching of Christ and the Church that Christ established fell into a state of apostacy. The protestants figured this out and broke away from the Catholic church but they did not have the authority of the priesthood to establish the priesthood leadership in the church. The Lord, through the prophet Joseph Smith, restored the church again upon the face of the earth with all the priesthood keys and powers in these latter days. Whenever the true church of Jesus Christ is to be found on the earth, it will have Apostles and Prophets to to lead the members toward becoming a more Christ like people as Paul has so clearly taught.

And this nullifies 1 Cor. 13 which declares that supernatural gifts of the Spirit would fail when the "Perfect Law of Liberty" comes? Hardly....all the scriptures come from the same Spirit of Truth the scriptures never contradict other passages of scriptures. The Apostle is addressing the Gifts of the Spirit that would help establish the infant church of Christ with Doctrine from Heaven.........when the church matured, the need for these supernatural gifts would cease, "For when I was a child, I spake as a Child, I understood as a Child, I thought as a Child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.." When The N.T Scriptures were completed in the 1st century......the gifts failed. The faith has been delivered ONCE by the saints of the 1st century. -- Jude 3 Again.........Perfection can't be added unto (James 1:25) All Truth cannot be added unto (John 16:13)

Mormons are nothing but CHILDREN............pretending to be in possession of the these Gifts that ceased when the last Apostle of Christ died 2000 years ago. I suggest you grow up, and realize that God has no respect of person.......Mormons are not in special possession of NEW scripture......a great deal of the Book of Mormon is parroted from the antiquated King James Translation of the New Testament. I call that plagiarism. INTELLECTUAL THEFT.

Book of Mormon and the King James Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Revelation 22:18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:18, just as ninja posted

Do you understand that many of the books of the New Testament were written after Revelation was written? And the various books that make up the Bible were not compiled into a single volume until much later.

If you're trying to argue that this passage means that the whole canon of scripture is closed, that God has revealed to us all that He will, and that he will reveal no more, then you are very badly mistaken.

See, also, Deuteronomy 4:2—a very similar passage early in the Old Testament. By the logic that you are trying to apply to Revelation 22:18, Deuteronomy 4:2 must mean that the Canon was supposed to be closed then, and would invalidate all that has been revealed after that point.

God never stopped trying to speak to Mankind, to reveal more to us that we need to know. Mankind arrogantly stopped listening.

 

[onefour1]

And this nullifies 1 Cor. 13 which declares that supernatural gifts of the Spirit would fail when the "Perfect Law of Liberty" comes? Hardly....all the scriptures come from the same Spirit of Truth the scriptures never contradict other passages of scriptures. The Apostle is addressing the Gifts of the Spirit that would help establish the infant church of Christ with Doctrine from Heaven.........when the church matured, the need for these supernatural gifts would cease, "For when I was a child, I spake as a Child, I understood as a Child, I thought as a Child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.." When The N.T Scriptures were completed in the 1st century......the gifts failed. The faith has been delivered ONCE by the saints of the 1st century. -- Jude 3 Again.........Perfection can't be added unto (James 1:25) All Truth cannot be added unto (John 16:13)

Mormons are nothing but CHILDREN............pretending to be in possession of the these Gifts that ceased when the last Apostle of Christ died 2000 years ago. I suggest you grow up, and realize that God has no respect of person.......Mormons are not in special possession of NEW scripture......a great deal of the Book of Mormon is parroted from the antiquated King James Translation of the New Testament. I call that plagiarism. INTELLECTUAL THEFT.

Book of Mormon and the King James Bible - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Having Apostles and Prophets in the church does not nullify 1 Corinthians 13. The reason Apostles and Prophets were given was for

Ephesians 4:12-14
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So my question to you is have we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ? NO!!! We haven't! Thus we still need Apostles and Prophets and other ministers of the gospel for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. These things were not done away with. The Apostles were replaced such as in the case of Judas Iscariot and other were added as in the case of Mathias and Paul. Only after apostasy were these things lost.

 

[BreezeWood]

B. Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.

1. Never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
2. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.

not in the 4th century christian bible that is written by the crucifiers for their own nefarious purposes using the name of jesus without a single word included written by jesus.

the scriptures written in all the desert bibles are every one of them from oral tradition ... o p is beyond accountability.

- and indeed during the true 1st century events - the scriptures are never valued positively.

 

[ding]

I. The example of Jesus: Quoted scripture, never tradition:
A. Jesus defeated the three temptations of the Devil with, "it is written", not "I say". Mt 4:1-11

1. The Temptation of Jesus: Matthew 4:1-11. Three times Jesus was tempted by the Devil and each time Jesus replied exactly the same three dangerous words that defeated the Devil: "IT IS WRITTEN" Read it for yourself! If any one could have used oral tradition, it was Jesus, yet he chose the only safe and sure way to defeat Satan: Scripture. We just with that the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches held scripture alone in the same high regard!
2. Traditionalists have simply not comprehended just how devastating it is that Jesus never appealed to his own authority in his 40 days temptation in the wilderness with the Devil.
3. Three times Jesus was tempted, three times Jesus replied, "It is written".
4. If oral tradition, or the authority of the church was valid, then Jesus would have at least one time referred to oral tradition, or used himself as the authority, as the Catholics, Orthodox and JW's use the church organization as an authority.

B. Never did Jesus refer to oral tradition to prove or defend truth.

1. Never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
2. Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.
3. The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them: 'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.' "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)

C. Jesus made over 100 references to scripture. Jesus never relies upon oral traditions but scripture alone. Let's follow the Lord's pattern of relying upon scripture!

1. "Have you not read" Matthew 12:3
2. "have you not read in the Law" Matthew 12:5
3. "Did you never read in the Scriptures" Matthew 21:42

D. Jesus expected the scriptures to be understood by the average man, even his enemies:

1. "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?" (Luke 10:26)
2. Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? (Mark 12:24)
3. But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)
4. "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him" There were any oral traditions as to who the messiah was. All were wrong! Some thought he was merely a king, some merely a prophet, some merely a priest! (Matthew 26:24)
5. "What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'? (Luke 20:17)
6. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me (John 5:39)
7. "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?" (Matthew 26:54)

II. The example of the apostles using Sola Scriptura:
A. Even though the apostles were inspired with genuine oral revelation, they always directed people to the scriptures for the final determination of truth. Oral tradition is worthless without the witness of scripture!

1. And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures (Acts 17:2)
2. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. (Acts 17:11-12)
3. "Apollos powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." (Acts 18:28)

B. Scriptures were read in the churches every Lord's Day:

1. Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. (1 Timothy 4:13)

III. Powerful Sola Scriptura proof texts:

A. Abide only within scripture to the exclusion of oral tradition:1 Corinthians 4:6

the rcc catechism is a book of traditions and man made commentary, mostly total opposite of the plain bible meaning/reading.

1. Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. 1 Corinthians 4:6
2. Jesus said, "upon this rock I will build My church" and Paul warned: "in building the church, do not exceed scripture!"
3. 
   Click for detailed outline on 1 Cor 4:6 to prove sola Scriptura!

Then why don’t you follow his command in John 6:53-56

 

[ninja007]

Then why don’t you follow his command in John 6:53-56

Once again, if we believe upon Jesus, i.e., eat Him so-to-speak, we will have ETERNAL LIFE. The people were talking about physical life; Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL life. Remember, when asked what we have to do, to do the works of God, Jesus said ...

"He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting LIFE."

When we believe on Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit of God actually comes to live inside of us, never to be purged like the physical bread of the Eucharist (which goes out in the dung)! A Catholic who believes they are digesting Jesus at Eucharist, must also believe that Jesus is in their feces! This is how ridiculous the Catholic religion is!


Because I believe, Jesus lives in me.


JOHN 6, VERSES 52 THROUGH 69


This caused the unbelieving Jews to say, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" They are still thinking about physical life and physical bread. Jesus is talking about spiritual life and spiritual bread. He has told them over and over that the work of God is to believe on Him and they repeatedly refuse to believe on Him and persist in seeking physical bread.


In vs. 55, Jesus said, "My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Many people were offended at the thought of what they perceived as cannibalism. Because of their unbelief, they were still thinking in the physical realm.


What about the disciples that left him? Was it because they had to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood? No! They left because they did not believe the claims that Jesus made, just like the greedy people, who didn't believe either. Because they did not believe, they could not understand what Jesus was saying (see 1st Corinthians 2:14).


In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that He was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NIL, NADA--NOTHING!


The Catholic religion purposely leaves out verses 63-64 when claiming that John 6 is about the Eucharist. The word, "Eucharist" is not even in the Bible. There is no concept of the Eucharist in Bible--but there is in pagan religion...

 

[ding]

Once again, if we believe upon Jesus, i.e., eat Him so-to-speak, we will have ETERNAL LIFE. The people were talking about physical life; Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL life. Remember, when asked what we have to do, to do the works of God, Jesus said ...




When we believe on Jesus Christ as our personal Saviour, the Holy Spirit of God actually comes to live inside of us, never to be purged like the physical bread of the Eucharist (which goes out in the dung)! A Catholic who believes they are digesting Jesus at Eucharist, must also believe that Jesus is in their feces! This is how ridiculous the Catholic religion is!


Because I believe, Jesus lives in me.


JOHN 6, VERSES 52 THROUGH 69


This caused the unbelieving Jews to say, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" They are still thinking about physical life and physical bread. Jesus is talking about spiritual life and spiritual bread. He has told them over and over that the work of God is to believe on Him and they repeatedly refuse to believe on Him and persist in seeking physical bread.


In vs. 55, Jesus said, "My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Many people were offended at the thought of what they perceived as cannibalism. Because of their unbelief, they were still thinking in the physical realm.


What about the disciples that left him? Was it because they had to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood? No! They left because they did not believe the claims that Jesus made, just like the greedy people, who didn't believe either. Because they did not believe, they could not understand what Jesus was saying (see 1st Corinthians 2:14).


In verse 63, Jesus asked the disciples that murmured, "Doth this offend you? It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth (gives life); THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life." He told them plainly that He was not talking literally. He said, "...the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT." He also told them here that the physical flesh profits NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NIL, NADA--NOTHING!


The Catholic religion purposely leaves out verses 63-64 when claiming that John 6 is about the Eucharist. The word, "Eucharist" is not even in the Bible. There is no concept of the Eucharist in Bible--but there is in pagan religion...

Sounds like you don't believe in Sola scripture at all if you have to change his words to suit your sensibilities.

 

[Clyde 154]

Having Apostles and Prophets in the church does not nullify 1 Corinthians 13. The reason Apostles and Prophets were given was for

Ephesians 4:12-14
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

So my question to you is have we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ? NO!!! We haven't! Thus we still need Apostles and Prophets and other ministers of the gospel for the perfecting of the saints and the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. These things were not done away with. The Apostles were replaced such as in the case of Judas Iscariot and other were added as in the case of Mathias and Paul. Only after apostasy were these things lost.

You declare your doctrine of modern day apostles and modern day prophecies do not contradict 1 Cor. 13?

You are attempting to apply documented History from the 1st century in order make the scriptures fit your false doctrine. You are pretending that the historical description of the New Testament infant church still applies today. When the Apostle of Christ declared, "LOVE NEVER ENDS.......As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues (speaking in a language you have never learned via miraculous gift of the spirit, such as exampled in Acts 2), they will cease; as for knowledge (supernatural) it will pass away. For now (in the 1st century) we know in part (the purpose of the gifts were to establish doctrine in the New Church/Kingdom of God covenant.....each person with a gift shared this knowledge with the entire church). But when THE PERFECT COMES (perfect........its not a person, its an adj. describing Completeness or having become Whole)......that which is in part (all the gifts from different individuals).........shall be done away with."

Again........I suggest you Mormon Children stop playing 1st century church..........GROW UP and stop thinking and reasoning like Children (1 Cor. 13:11-12)

The word for Perfect used in 1 Cor. 13 by the Apostle is the same Creek word for perfection (Teleios) used to describe the completed N.T. revelations as the "Perfect Law of Liberty". In other words when the faith was once delivered and recorded for future generations as the Apostle Peter declared was his mission......the special offices and supernatural gifts ceased to be needed. As anyone and everyone can simply read the completed/perfect Law of Liberty (the words of Jesus Christ) in the completed Holy Bible.

Peter declared that as his death approached...........He would record all that he had seen/witnessed, along with the supernatural revelations given to Him by the Lord through the Spirit of Truth as promised to the Apostles that the world could not receive. (John 14:17) Yet here you are, you and your cult declaring you have received that which you were never promised.

"For this reason (Peter's approaching death) I will not neglect to remind you of these things, through you know and are established in the truth (the church was nearing perfection....in revelation from heaven) in the present truth. Yes I think it right, as long as I am in this tent (body), to stir you up by reminding you. Knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. MOREOVER I WILL BE CAREFUL TO ENSURE THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE A REMINDER OF THESE THINGS AFTER MY DECEASE." -- 2 Peter 1:12-15





Your false premise? No one is perfect via how you are attempting to define the word Perfect found in the New Testament scriptures. I must point out again that no one scripture will contradict another inspired revelation of scriptures as "All Scripture is inspired by God...." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Within this scripture the word "perfect" is used......the original Koine Greek word of Perfect is "Teleios" (which means, reached it end.....made whole, complete) Its the scriptures that make the man of God complete (perfect) in his/her attempt to walk righteously in this life........not the person.

Your doctrine falsifies the Apostle John's inspired scripture, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US." -- 1 John: 8-10.

Clear with no ambiguity whatsoever.....HIS WORD (THE SCRIPTURES INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND RECORDED BY SAINTS OF THE 1ST CENTURY.....THE FAITH IS ONCE DELIVERED BY THE SAINTS -- Jude 3. The Holy Spirit of Truth lives in you when you obey the Holy Scriptures that He inspired to PERFECTION (Teleios: completion, made whole).

ESV: Modern English Translation: "All scripture is (Inspired: Breathed Out By God) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training (training, not perfection) in righteousness, THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE (perfect in the old King James translation....complete in the original Koine Greek), equipped for every good work." EQUIPPED.......its the scriptures that make the man of God complete/perfect in the training to become righteous and do good works." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17



No human can obtain perfection in this physical state of reality because no human possesses the omniscience (total knowledge) as does our Lord and Christ (we all make poor life decisions from time to time which results in sin, either sin of omission or commission).........perfection the way you are attempting to define the text would be.........one must be able to totally emulate the Christ and walk this earth without sin. The scriptures declare that YOU ARE A LIAR and deceive yourself if you take this self centered "narcissistic" attitude and you make a the Lord out to be a liar.

 

[Clyde 154]

More.........if men are to become perfect in the eyes of God, and gods themselves, our Lord and Christ, Jesus, has sacrificed in vain....as His blood is not required to cover our sins, all we need to do is walk in perfection to the letter of the Law......the very reason that a New Covenant unlike the Covenant of Moses was required. (Jer. 31:31-34). The Law was and is perfect...man is not perfect and can never be perfect in making perfect life decisions (judgements). The scriptures declare why a New Covenant was required, one written in the hearts of men instead of written literally on stone........its because men were always breaking the righteous commandments of God. Men are tempted everyday in this reality as the god of this world is Satan and those who follow after him, his disciples (2 Cor. 4:4.... Satan, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." -- 1 Peter 5:8


The Old Law required a perfect blood sacrifice to fulfill....bring to completion. Jesus Christ was that perfect blood sacrifice............THE LAMB OF GOD (John 1:29) that would take the sins of the world upon Himself even though He walked this life sin free. Jesus BECAME sin in order take away the sins of the world (2 Cor. 5:21)

What? Did God fail mankind and allow Satan to rule on earth? Of course not..........its the spirit/soul of man that God is interested in saving. God had a plan to save the souls of mankind and defeat death/hades before the worlds were formed or before time itself began. (1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9). The scriptures tell us this plan remained hidden from mankind for awhile, until God decided to reveal it to mankind (Eph.3:5,6).......this plan was hidden even from the prophets who foretold it....they did not comprehend what they had prophesied (1 Peter 1:10-12)

This plan would be revealed to the Apostles and Prophets by the Holy Spirit of Truth at the correct time in history (Eph. 3:5, 1 Peter 1:12) We are told by God that when we read the revealed mystery in the Holy Scriptures we may understand/comprehend it. (Eph. 3:4). God would have all men come to this knowledge of the truth and find the path to salvation (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Mystery is revealed........it has been revealed for over 2000 years, the kingdom of God was established in the 1st century A.D. (Eph. 3:1-6). What is this truth and mystery that is rejected by many? There is only one path to fellowship with the Father, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6

 

[onefour1]

You declare your doctrine of modern day apostles and modern day prophecies do not contradict 1 Cor. 13?

Absolutely!

You are attempting to apply documented History from the 1st century in order make the scriptures fit your false doctrine. You are pretending that the historical description of the New Testament infant church still applies today. When the Apostle of Christ declared, "LOVE NEVER ENDS.......As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues (speaking in a language you have never learned via miraculous gift of the spirit, such as exampled in Acts 2), they will cease; as for knowledge (supernatural) it will pass away. For now (in the 1st century) we know in part (the purpose of the gifts were to establish doctrine in the New Church/Kingdom of God covenant.....each person with a gift shared this knowledge with the entire church). But when THE PERFECT COMES (perfect........its not a person, its an adj. describing Completeness or having become Whole)......that which is in part (all the gifts from different individuals).........shall be done away with."

I am not pretending that the doctrines of the NT still apply but know that they still apply. When a being reaches perfection (not in this life) that being will not need prophesy because he/she will know all truth and will not need prophesy. He/she will also not need the gift of tongues because the perfected in Christ will all speak the same language and probably be able to read each others thoughts. When one is perfected in knowledge they have no more need to gain knowledge. So all these things will be done away because of a beings perfection. However, charity, which is the pure love of Christ, will continue in perfected beings and will have no end. That is the true meaning of what is spoken of in 1 Cor. 13. You try to make it into something it is not. You try to make it into a false "sola scriptura" balony that is not even taught in scripture. If what you say is true, there would be no need for anyone to preach the gospel or anyone to have authority in the priesthood to administer the ordinances of the gospel such as baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. According to you all that is necessary is the scriptures and nothing else. Christ set up his church and never said anything about doing away with the work and ministry of the gospel unless we were to all come to a unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

According to your made up doctrine we would need absolutely nothing but the scriptures. We would no longer need to pray unto God and not even need God Himself but only the scriptures. No pastors or evangelists or teachers either would be needed since we have already come to a unity of the faith and perfect beings in Christ Jesus because we have the Bible. What a joke!!

Again........I suggest you Mormon Children stop playing 1st century church..........GROW UP and stop thinking and reasoning like Children (1 Cor. 13:11-12)

The word for Perfect used in 1 Cor. 13 by the Apostle is the same Creek word for perfection (Teleios) used to describe the completed N.T. revelations as the "Perfect Law of Liberty". In other words when the faith was once delivered and recorded for future generations as the Apostle Peter declared was his mission......the special offices and supernatural gifts ceased to be needed. As anyone and everyone can simply read the completed/perfect Law of Liberty (the words of Jesus Christ) in the completed Holy Bible.

What need do I have to listen to you when I have the Bible? Isn't that the "doctrine of sola scriptura"? Why are there some 22,190 or more denomination of protestants? If they have all come to the unity of the faith, why are they not a single denomination? Your doctrine suggests that nothing that Jesus set up as his church is needed anymore but that all we need is the Bible only. Really??? You reject the organization of the church that Jesus himself established? You reject the priesthood that was set up by the Master himself? Please show me where in the Bible it ever teaches that all we ever need is the Bible. That is a made up farce to do away with all that Jesus established over a doctrine not even taught in the Bible itself.

Peter declared that as his death approached...........He would record all that he had seen/witnessed, along with the supernatural revelations given to Him by the Lord through the Spirit of Truth as promised to the Apostles that the world could not receive. (John 14:17) Yet here you are, you and your cult declaring you have received that which you were never promised.

"For this reason (Peter's approaching death) I will not neglect to remind you of these things, through you know and are established in the truth (the church was nearing perfection....in revelation from heaven) in the present truth. Yes I think it right, as long as I am in this tent (body), to stir you up by reminding you. Knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me. MOREOVER I WILL BE CAREFUL TO ENSURE THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE A REMINDER OF THESE THINGS AFTER MY DECEASE." -- 2 Peter 1:12-15

Yes the scriptures are important and they are part of the learning of the gospel but the organization and priesthood of the church of Jesus was not simply set up to bring about the Bible. It was set up as a continuing organization that no where came near perfection. There were many signs of apostasy already being seen in the days of the apostles of Christ. No where near perfect!

• changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24:5.
• this people draw near me with their mouth, Isa. 29:13.
• darkness shall cover the earth, Isa. 60:2.
• a famine … of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8:11.

• his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, Matt. 13:25.
• saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many, Matt. 24:5.
• shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, Matt. 24:24.
• his disciples went back, and walked no more with him, John 6:66.
• shall grievous wolves enter in among you, Acts 20:29.
• there be divisions among you, 1 Cor. 11:18.
• I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him, Gal. 1:6.
• who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey, Gal. 3:1.
• shall not come, except there come a falling away first, 2 Thes. 2:3.
• some having swerved have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6.
• giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1.
• all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15.
• Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18.
• Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5.
• turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4.
• profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16.
• From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1.
• false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1.
• being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17.
• now are there many antichrists, 1 Jn. 2:18.
• many false prophets are gone out into the world, 1 Jn. 4:1.
• certain men crept in … denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4.
• which say they are apostles, and are not, Rev. 2:2.
• thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, Rev. 3:16.
• to make war with the saints, Rev. 13:7.

The Apostles in the church just after Christ's death and resurrection were all killed except one. This lead the church into a great apostasy. Protestants themselves are evidence that the Catholics were not the true church of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter even taught that there would be a need for the restitution of all things in the latter days.

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Your false premise? No one is perfect via how you are attempting to define the word Perfect found in the New Testament scriptures. I must point out again that no one scripture will contradict another inspired revelation of scriptures as "All Scripture is inspired by God...." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Within this scripture the word "perfect" is used......the original Koine Greek word of Perfect is "Teleios" (which means, reached it end.....made whole, complete) Its the scriptures that make the man of God complete (perfect) in his/her attempt to walk righteously in this life........not the person.

Your doctrine falsifies the Apostle John's inspired scripture, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US." -- 1 John: 8-10.

We have never claimed that mortals in this world have reached perfection. That is a lie that you are attempting to spread. What we do believe is that we can, through the atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ, eventually in the eternities become perfect. Jesus himself wanted us to pursue this goal:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

To teach that it is impossible for man to become perfect would be to say that Jesus was a false teacher. In this world, YES, we do have sin and have all fallen short. But through the atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ we can receive forgiveness of sin and repent and strive toward that perfection that Jesus teaches us to become.

Clear with no ambiguity whatsoever.....HIS WORD (THE SCRIPTURES INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH AND RECORDED BY SAINTS OF THE 1ST CENTURY.....THE FAITH IS ONCE DELIVERED BY THE SAINTS -- Jude 3. The Holy Spirit of Truth lives in you when you obey the Holy Scriptures that He inspired to PERFECTION (Teleios: completion, made whole).

ESV: Modern English Translation: "All scripture is (Inspired: Breathed Out By God) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training (training, not perfection) in righteousness, THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE COMPLETE (perfect in the old King James translation....complete in the original Koine Greek), equipped for every good work." EQUIPPED.......its the scriptures that make the man of God complete/perfect in the training to become righteous and do good works." -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17

We do not teach against the scriptures being the word of God. We simply do not believe that the scriptures are the summum bonum of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe in continuing revelation and the same church that Jesus himself established and that it was not set up just to bring about the Bible. It along with priesthood offices such as Apostles and Prophets were created to be a part of his church for as long as we have not all come to a unity of the faith.

Ephesians 4:11-14
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

No human can obtain perfection in this physical state of reality because no human possesses the omniscience (total knowledge) as does our Lord and Christ (we all make poor life decisions from time to time which results in sin, either sin of omission or commission).........perfection the way you are attempting to define the text would be.........one must be able to totally emulate the Christ and walk this earth without sin. The scriptures declare that YOU ARE A LIAR and deceive yourself if you take this self centered "narcissistic" attitude and you make a the Lord out to be a liar.

Again, you are spreading a lie about my faith in that you falsely believe that we can become perfect in this life. So NO it is you that is the LIAR. We do however, as I have stated above believe the words of Jesus Christ that we eventually in the eternities can become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect as Jesus so commanded us to be:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you don't believe this, then you do not believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[luiza]

Cultists arbitrarily inventing a code to explain anything and everything on the basis that
We know we are right
Which proves that you are wrong .

Hysterically funny if it were not so sad .

 

[onefour1]

More.........if men are to become perfect in the eyes of God, and gods themselves, our Lord and Christ, Jesus, has sacrificed in vain....as His blood is not required to cover our sins, all we need to do is walk in perfection to the letter of the Law......the very reason that a New Covenant unlike the Covenant of Moses was required. (Jer. 31:31-34). The Law was and is perfect...man is not perfect and can never be perfect in making perfect life decisions (judgements). The scriptures declare why a New Covenant was required, one written in the hearts of men instead of written literally on stone........its because men were always breaking the righteous commandments of God. Men are tempted everyday in this reality as the god of this world is Satan and those who follow after him, his disciples (2 Cor. 4:4.... Satan, "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour." -- 1 Peter 5:8

If men are fallible creatures and subject to sin in this world then in order for them to become perfect in the eyes of God it would be absolutely critical that they receive the forgiveness of sin through the blood of Christ. Your logic seems very skewed. Without Jesus sinful man could never ever reach the stage of perfection. No man except Jesus has ever walked in perfection the letter of the law. Therefore no man can be saved by his own works alone and is in desperate need of the forgiveness of sin and repentance. If you think we believe that we can save ourselves you then know nothing about our beliefs. It is because of the atonement of Jesus Christ that mankind can be forgiven and progress to become more like their Heavenly Father.

The Old Law required a perfect blood sacrifice to fulfill....bring to completion. Jesus Christ was that perfect blood sacrifice............THE LAMB OF GOD (John 1:29) that would take the sins of the world upon Himself even though He walked this life sin free. Jesus BECAME sin in order take away the sins of the world (2 Cor. 5:21)

We believe that it is only in and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that mankind can be saved into the kingdom of heaven. The law of sacrifice of the old testament was type of things to come which was to ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If you think we believe otherwise, then you are gravely mistaken.

What? Did God fail mankind and allow Satan to rule on earth? Of course not..........its the spirit/soul of man that God is interested in saving. God had a plan to save the souls of mankind and defeat death/hades before the worlds were formed or before time itself began. (1 Peter 1:20, 2 Tim. 1:9). The scriptures tell us this plan remained hidden from mankind for awhile, until God decided to reveal it to mankind (Eph.3:5,6).......this plan was hidden even from the prophets who foretold it....they did not comprehend what they had prophesied (1 Peter 1:10-12)

The doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ was not hidden from the prophets and they looked forward to the time the Savior of the world would come and atone for the sins of all the world.

Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

This plan would be revealed to the Apostles and Prophets by the Holy Spirit of Truth at the correct time in history (Eph. 3:5, 1 Peter 1:12) We are told by God that when we read the revealed mystery in the Holy Scriptures we may understand/comprehend it. (Eph. 3:4). God would have all men come to this knowledge of the truth and find the path to salvation (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The plan was reveal long before the days of the Apostles. Isaiah above tells us that he understood the purpose and calling of Jesus Christ.

The Mystery is revealed........it has been revealed for over 2000 years, the kingdom of God was established in the 1st century A.D. (Eph. 3:1-6). What is this truth and mystery that is rejected by many? There is only one path to fellowship with the Father, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6

It has been revealed since the days of Adam. It is that a majority were not willing to come unto Christ and understand.

see Moses 5

 

[Clyde 154]

If men are fallible creatures and subject to sin in this world then in order for them to become perfect in the eyes of God it would be absolutely critical that they receive the forgiveness of sin through the blood of Christ. Your logic seems very skewed. Without Jesus sinful man could never ever reach the stage of perfection. No man except Jesus has ever walked in perfection the letter of the law. Therefore no man can be saved by his own works alone and is in desperate need of the forgiveness of sin and repentance. If you think we believe that we can save ourselves you then know nothing about our beliefs. It is because of the atonement of Jesus Christ that mankind can be forgiven and progress to become more like their Heavenly Father.

We believe that it is only in and through the atonement of Jesus Christ that mankind can be saved into the kingdom of heaven. The law of sacrifice of the old testament was type of things to come which was to ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world. If you think we believe otherwise, then you are gravely mistaken.

The doctrine of the atonement of Jesus Christ was not hidden from the prophets and they looked forward to the time the Savior of the world would come and atone for the sins of all the world.

Isaiah 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


The plan was reveal long before the days of the Apostles. Isaiah above tells us that he understood the purpose and calling of Jesus Christ.


It has been revealed since the days of Adam. It is that a majority were not willing to come unto Christ and understand.

see Moses 5

Do you actually think that the God of Creation would condone the Plagiarism of His Words, as does the Book of Mormon that plagiarized the King James Translation......in pretension of New Revelation? Its documented History just as is the strange fact that Mormons once taught that Black Skin People were being punished by God......or that Men, that looked like Mormons lived on the moon, while declaring that bigamy is accepted by God, instead of being the doctrine of men. How gullible does one have to be to buy into this fiction wholesale and attempt to defend it?

Strange that you still attempt to twist the scriptures and defend your false doctrine by presenting scripture...........yet ignoring the clear unambiguous text that contradicts your false claim of modern day miracles and apostleship.....which declares the Supernatural offices and Gifts would soon fail. (1 Cor. 13.......still contradicts your false doctrine, you do not make the words of God vanish away by mistranslation of other scripture. If you attempt to pit one scripture to another in order to make the scriptures fit your doctrine......you are guilty of twisting the scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16)

Hard headed false doctrine with no basis to be found in the New Testament Scriptures. Jesus paying for our sin is not futuristic, Jesus has already for the sins of the world, He has purchased our salvation with His blood (Gal. 3:13-15) Its historical, not futuristic. Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself when He nailed the sins to His sacrificial Cross. (Col. 2:14)

Jesus having paid for the sins of the world while becoming the first born to defeat death/hades is historical....Jesus was resurrected after 3 days. "For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." -- 2 Cor. 5:21 Details matter........this text is past tense, not future tense, its US/WE (mankind) that "might" become righteous by applying the truthful words of the Christ (scripture) to our lives.

Everything required pertaining to "LIFE AND GODLINESS" already existed in the 1st century.........no future revelations are required (2 Peter 1:3) The Faith has been delivered by the saints of the 1st century......ONCE (Jude 3)

Jesus knew no sin as the Son of Man, He committed no sin, yet become sin, for our sake He paid for our sins (1 Peter 2:22)........Jesus who was equal to God and thought it not robbery, gave up His deity and become human in order to be tempted as all men in becoming the the 1st born to defeat the grave/hades. (Phil. 2:6-10)

Its the duty of the Bride of Christ......the church, not to become gods equal, but to serve the God of creation in heaven, the Bride Church enters New Jerusalem in heaven and becomes the PEOPLE of God (Rev. 21:2-4), NEW JERUSALEM exists in heaven as a spiritual city, not a literal city.

,There is only 1 Father, 1 Son, 1 FAITH church/kingdom (Eph. 4:5) There was not one faith in the 1st century with a new faith to come 2000 years later. Again....you can't ADD NEW TRUTH TO ALL TRUTH that was revealed once to the Apostles of Christ in the 1st century. (John 16:13) .....just as its impossible to ADD new revelation to the already existing "PERFECT (completed/whole) LAW OF LIBERTY" -- James 1:25 Joseph Smith and the entire supposed Latter Day Saints are nothing short of con-artists taking advantage of the poor in spirit.

 

[Ace Nova]

The entirety of Jesus' ministry is based on the Law and what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. The reason people followed him was because he gave his disciples a newer, cleaner and streamlined understanding of it all - in an era of corruption.

 

[Clyde 154]

The entirety of Jesus' ministry is based on the Law and what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. The reason people followed him was because he gave his disciples a newer, cleaner and streamlined understanding of it all - in an era of corruption.

If you attempt to live under the Law and the Prophets and justify your faith through THE LAW of MOSES.........you have fallen from grace. (Gal. 5:4). If you attempt to live even by one of the precepts of the Old Law......you must follow the entire doctrine to the letter or be found guilty of ALL. (James 2:10_

Is the history found in the OLD LAW still important today..........should we read and study from the OLD LAW? Of course........its our schoolmaster that historically brings us to Christ Jesus the Messiah (Romans 15:4). But we are to worship in spirit and truth (John 4:24). TRUTH: The LAW and PROPHETS were given to Moses for one nation only, not to the ancestors of Israel, such as Adam, Noah, Abraham......but to Israel only, standing there hearing Moses present the requirements of the Law (Deut. 5:1-4). Not one Gentile has ever been bound by the Law and the Prophets........the LAW was specific to Biblical Israel only.

You hardly presented documented truth, Jesus nailed the Law and the Prophets to His cross (Col. 2:14). The Old Law had to be fulfilled in order for the New Testament Covenant as prophesied in the Old Testament to come into effect. Jeremiah clearly stated that a New Covenant would be introduced to Israel unlike the Law delivered to Moses, as the New Law would be written on the hearts of God's true followers as confirmed in the New Testament (Jer. 31:31-34, Luke 17: 20-21)

Jesus preached of a Kingdom to Come shortly.....with some standing there hearing Him speak not tasting of death until they witnessed the Kingdom of God/Christ/Church (Matt. 16) come with power (Matthew 6:10, Mark 9:1) The Kingdom of God was established with power from Heaven as documented in Acts 2......when Peter used the keys given him by the Christ to bind on earth what was to be bound in Heaven (Matthew 16) Peter opened the entrance to the New Testament Kingdom with the first gospel sermon and informed the Jewish masses before him what they must do to enter the kingdom......."repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". Acts 2:38

As documented the Old Law had to be removed to make way for the New Law/Covenant.....the Apostle of Christ clearly stated that its impossible to be under 2 different covenants/Laws at the same time, that would be committing Spiritual Adultery to attempt to apply New Law while the other Law was still in effect.

"For the married woman (Christians are considered to be the Bride of Christ -- Eph. 5:25-27) is bound by Law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the Law concerning her husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the Law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is married to another man. THEREFORE MY CHILDREN, YOU WERE ALSO MADE TO DIE TO THE OLD LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF THE CHRIST, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE JOINED TO ANOTHER, TO HIM WHO WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, IN ORDER THAT WE MAY BEAR FRUIT FOR GOD." -- Romans 7:2-4

It is through the symbolic act (a work) of being baptized in water.......that represents your death to the Old Law and its regulations, so that you might arise again.....free from the bondage of the literal letter of the Old Law.......to rise, from the watery grave born again, as a new born free from all previous sins regulated under the old law......a new creature, freed to become a citizen in the kingdom of God whose Lord and Christ is Jesus (Acts 2:39) you are now free from any bond that existed in the Law and the Prophets....because the Law was nailed to the Cross of Jesus' blood sacrifice as the Lamb of God, without spot nor blemish, as predicted in (Exodus 12:5) with John the Baptist confirming that Jesus is that Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

 

[Ace Nova]

Hardly the documented truth. Jesus nailed the Law and the Prophets to His cross (Col. 2:14). The Old Law had to be fulfilled in order for the New Testament Covenant as prophesied in the Old Testament to come into effect. Jeremiah clearly stated that a New Covenant would be introduced to Israel unlike the Law delivered to Moses, as the New Law would be written on the hearts of God's true followers as confirmed in the New Testament (Jer. 31:31-34, Luke 17: 20-21)

Jesus preached of a Kingdom to Come shortly.....with some standing not tasting death until they witnessed the Kingdom of God/Christ/Church (Matt. 16) come with power (Matthew 6:10, Mark 9:1)

As documented the Old Law had to be removed to make way for the New Law/Covenant.....the Apostle of Christ clearly stated that its impossible to be under 2 different covenants/Laws at the same time, that would be committing Spiritual Adultery to attempt to apply New Law while the other Law was still in effect.

"For the married woman (Christians are considered to be the Bride of Christ -- Eph. 5:25-27) is bound by Law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the Law concerning her husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the Law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is married to another man. THEREFORE MY CHILDREN, YOU WERE ALSO MADE TO DIE TO THE OLD LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF THE CHRIST, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE JOINED TO ANOTHER, TO HIM WHO WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, IN ORDER THAT WE MAY BEAR FRUIT FOR GOD." -- Romans 7:2-4

It is through the symbolic act (a work) of being baptized in water.......that represents your death to the Old Law and its regulations, so that you might arise again.....free from the bondage of the literal letter of the Old Law.......to rise, from the watery grave born again, as a new born free from all previous sins regulated under the old law......a new creature, freed to become a citizen in the kingdom of God whose Lord and Christ is Jesus (Acts 2:39) you are no free to any bound that existed in the Law and the Prophets....because the Law was nailed to the Cross of Jesus' blood sacrifice as the Lamb of God, without spot nor blemish, as predicted in (Exodus 12:5) with John the Baptist confirming that Jesus is that Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. (John 1:29)

Very nice, Clyde.

What does this mean to you?

 

[Clyde 154]

Very nice, Clyde.

What does this mean to you?

Simple: You must worship in Spirit (your mind) and Truth (Truth is located only in one place..........the Word of God -- John 17:17) Its THE TRUTH that sets you free (John 8:32)

If you don't worship in truth, you worship in vain (You are to hear the voice of Jesus as recorded in scripture.....EVERYONE THAT IS OF THE TRUTH HEARS THE VOICE OF CHRIST -- John 18:37. To present truth from heaven was the reason that Jesus was born. If you do not hear that truth.......you worship in vain.

 

[surada]

You are just as guilty as the religious leaders of Jesus' days, Teaching the traditions that come from men, making the scriptures, the Word of God of no effect.

Strange that you would declare that the scriptures did not exist (when the Old Testament Bible has existed for 3500 years).......because Jesus was teaching of the New Testament Covenant....His Kingdom which would soon come with power. Your false premise? Jesus did not quote from any existing Bible because the Bible did not exist yet? Really? Jesus lived by THE LAW without sin......how can Jesus live by the letter of the Law if the letters never existed?

Example: the Lords prayer is an example of Jesus prediction of the coming New Testament Kingdom, "Your (Gods) Kingdom Come........" (Matt. 6:9),which means the kingdom did not yet exist. But Jesus informed those He was addressing that, "Assuredly, I say to you (those Jesus was speaking to) that some standing here will not taste of death until they see the kingdom of God come with power..." -- Mark 9:1 And the kingdom did come........with power (Acts 2)

Reality: Jesus was born of a woman, born under the LAW. Jesus was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and practiced the LAW and the PROPHETS ........."without sin". (Gal. 4:4, 2 Cor. 5:21)
To suggest that the Bible did not exist and Jesus did not quote from the Scriptures is more than ABSURD. Jesus often quoted from the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament text.......this Greek Translation from the Original Hebrew tongue came from 72 Hebrew scholars from 15 different tribes of Hebrews.......this Bible preexisted the birth of Jesus, the bible was translated in the 3rd century B.C. Koine Greek was the universal language of the day.......

Jesus did not quote Old Testament Scripture? Laughable. The New Testament document Jesus' use of the Septuagint Bible. Examples: These passages are quoted from the Septuagint translated Bible. 1. quoted from (Isa. 7:14) N.T. passage (Matt.1:23) 2. Hosea (6:6) quoted in (Matt. 12:7, 9:13) 3. quoted from (Isa. 40:3) quoted in (Matt. 3:3, John 1:23, Mark 1:3) 4. (Isa. 42:4) quoted in (12:21) 5. (Isa. 6:10) quoted in (Matt. 13:15) 6. (Isa.40:4-5) quoted in (Matt. Luke 3:56). 7. (Isa. 29:13) quoted directly in the Septuagint text in (Mark 7:6-8). 8. (Ps. 8:20) quoted in (Matt. 21:16)

In Mark 7:6-7) Jesus quotes directly from LXX(Septuagint) -- Isa. 29:13, when Jesus says, "Well did Isaiah prophecy of you hypocrites, AS IT IS WRITTEN.......the people honors Me (the Lord) with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me; in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the PRECEPTS OF MEN......."

It gets a little messy since the gospels were written decades after the crucifixion.