Jahi McMath 13 years old

[Vox]

The child is dead. While anyone could appreciate the pain this family went through, there has been plenty of time to come to grips with their loss. So far no facility will take the girl and no doctor will assume the responsibility. The hospital where she is wants a waiver. The family keeps saying they have a facility and a doctor though none has come forward. The family still needs money to pay for the transfer and ongoing care. The hospital has issued a death certificate. No insurance company in the world is going to pay for medical care after a death certificate has been issued. Not even to be nice.

From a litigation standpoint, the family is insisting the girl is alive. If she gets to a destination and that facility says they examined her and she's dead, when did she die and who is responsible?

They are collecting every day for her care. If the hospital in California caused her death, the family is limited to $250,000 recovery for medical malpractice. If they claim she "died" in another state without tort limitations recovery has the potential of being a million or more.

It looks like this started out in an overabundance of grief and changed to something quite different along the way.

to be fair I think it is their lawyer's idea...

 

[alan1]

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

I don't see many answers to my original question, but then, I didn't offer an answer of my own in the OP.

I will now.

If Jahi was my child, I would pull the plug and end it.

Such a decision is never made lightly and it may be made more difficult because she is so young. We can see it weighs heavily on the family and I am sure it weighed heavily on the hospital staff before they rendered their decision.
I don't think it is the hospitals decision or a courts decision as to the final outcome in this situation. It is the family's decision. I disagree with the choice they have made, but it is their choice to make, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court. Theirs.

 

[Noomi]

Jahi McMath's family, Oakland hospital discussing girl's transfer - CNN.com

A California court hearing concluded Friday with the family of Jahi McMath -- a 13-year-old girl on a ventilator who has been declared dead by doctors -- and a hospital agreeing on a protocol for the release of the girl to another facility.

The hospital says she is dead and wants to pull the plug.
The mother believes she may recover and wants care to continue.

I've been involved in the decision of whether or not to cut off life support for a loved one. It's not an easy choice.

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

If she was my child I would respect what they have said and acknowledge the fact that my child was dead, and remove her life support.

 

[Noomi]

Vox is right, in a way. The longer the child remains on life support, the longer her story features in the media. The more sympathy the family get for their cause, and the more money is donated.

I don't think the parents are purposefully wanting to make money off their dad daughter, but the fact is, they are making money off her, intentionally or not. ts just to say goodbye, put aside this irrational belief that she will recover, and let her go to the big man in the sky.

 

[Vox]

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

I don't see many answers to my original question, but then, I didn't offer an answer of my own in the OP.

I will now.

If Jahi was my child, I would pull the plug and end it.

Such a decision is never made lightly and it may be made more difficult because she is so young. We can see it weighs heavily on the family and I am sure it weighed heavily on the hospital staff before they rendered their decision.
I don't think it is the hospitals decision or a courts decision as to the final outcome in this situation. It is the family's decision. I disagree with the choice they have made, but it is their choice to make, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court. Theirs.

nope. it is not theirs.

when the patient is dead - it is not the family decision anymore.

she is dead and has been almost a month.

If one does not like the definition of death by "brain death"( and it is very confusing to many, obviously) - change the definition, not make the circus of money making from the death.

It is a bad precedent, and I can guarantee you that because of this family many more families will get hurt because I can also guarantee you this precedent is followed closely by all hospitals in the US to make sure such a debacle never happens to them.

Or you think hospitals all over the US would make sure they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars to ventilate corpses until the family members make up their minds?

 

[Vox]

Vox is right, in a way. The longer the child remains on life support, the longer her story features in the media. The more sympathy the family get for their cause, and the more money is donated.

I don't think the parents are purposefully wanting to make money off their dad daughter, but the fact is, they are making money off her, intentionally or not. ts just to say goodbye, put aside this irrational belief that she will recover, and let her go to the big man in the sky.

I might give the family a benefit of the doubt ( as they are not very educated, for sure) that the extension of this circus and the decision to move the body to another state is, most probably, the legal team's idea.
If the scenario goes as Katzndogs described - 30-40% of millions is much better than 30-40% of 250.000$.

 

[Noomi]

Vox is right, in a way. The longer the child remains on life support, the longer her story features in the media. The more sympathy the family get for their cause, and the more money is donated.

I don't think the parents are purposefully wanting to make money off their dad daughter, but the fact is, they are making money off her, intentionally or not. ts just to say goodbye, put aside this irrational belief that she will recover, and let her go to the big man in the sky.

I might give the family a benefit of the doubt ( as they are not very educated, for sure) that the extension of this circus and the decision to move the body to another state is, most probably, the legal team's idea.
If the scenario goes as Katzndogs described - 30-40% of millions is much better than 30-40% of 250.000$.

How is it even legal to transport a corpse across state lines?

 

[alan1]

Jahi McMath's family, Oakland hospital discussing girl's transfer - CNN.com

A California court hearing concluded Friday with the family of Jahi McMath -- a 13-year-old girl on a ventilator who has been declared dead by doctors -- and a hospital agreeing on a protocol for the release of the girl to another facility.

The hospital says she is dead and wants to pull the plug.
The mother believes she may recover and wants care to continue.

I've been involved in the decision of whether or not to cut off life support for a loved one. It's not an easy choice.

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

If she was my child I would respect what they have said and acknowledge the fact that my child was dead, and remove her life support.

You are one of the few that has answered the question. Thank you.
Do you have children, Noomi?
From previous posts you've made, I'm thinking the answer is no.

 

[Vox]

Vox is right, in a way. The longer the child remains on life support, the longer her story features in the media. The more sympathy the family get for their cause, and the more money is donated.

I don't think the parents are purposefully wanting to make money off their dad daughter, but the fact is, they are making money off her, intentionally or not. ts just to say goodbye, put aside this irrational belief that she will recover, and let her go to the big man in the sky.

I might give the family a benefit of the doubt ( as they are not very educated, for sure) that the extension of this circus and the decision to move the body to another state is, most probably, the legal team's idea.
If the scenario goes as Katzndogs described - 30-40% of millions is much better than 30-40% of 250.000$.

How is it even legal to transport a corpse across state lines?

I don't know. Per reports in the media thy are all the time claiming that some facility in NY or else is willing to take the body to continue to ventilate.

The original one was a facility in Southern California but the facility wanted a tracheostomy and a PEG tube placed before they accept the body.
Obviously nobody performs traheostomies and PEG placements on corpses and therefore the facility refused ( or learned what they are dealing with - nobody will pay for the care of the LEGALLY and MEDICALLY dead person).

I do not think there ever will be any facility to take a body for a long term care, unless that is some charitable religious facility - but even them, despite their beliefs have legal and financial responsibilities and there is no possibility except charity to get funds to take care of the LEGALLY dead body.

 

[Noomi]

Jahi McMath's family, Oakland hospital discussing girl's transfer - CNN.com


The hospital says she is dead and wants to pull the plug.
The mother believes she may recover and wants care to continue.

I've been involved in the decision of whether or not to cut off life support for a loved one. It's not an easy choice.

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

If she was my child I would respect what they have said and acknowledge the fact that my child was dead, and remove her life support.

You are one of the few that has answered the question. Thank you.
Do you have children, Noomi?
From previous posts you've made, I'm thinking the answer is no.

I do not have children yet. I have a great respect for doctors, though, and it is clear that in this case, doctors have done all they can to save this little girl, to no avail. For the doctors to diagnose brain death, and the parents to ignore this, is just a slap in the face to the many healthcare workers who worked around the clock trying to save Jahi.

 

[alan1]

If Jahi was your child, what would you think?

I don't see many answers to my original question, but then, I didn't offer an answer of my own in the OP.

I will now.

If Jahi was my child, I would pull the plug and end it.

Such a decision is never made lightly and it may be made more difficult because she is so young. We can see it weighs heavily on the family and I am sure it weighed heavily on the hospital staff before they rendered their decision.
I don't think it is the hospitals decision or a courts decision as to the final outcome in this situation. It is the family's decision. I disagree with the choice they have made, but it is their choice to make, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court. Theirs.

nope. it is not theirs.

when the patient is dead - it is not the family decision anymore.

she is dead and has been almost a month.

I respectfully disagree. It is their decision, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court and not yours.

If one does not like the definition of death by "brain death"( and it is very confusing to many, obviously) - change the definition, not make the circus of money making from the death.

It is a bad precedent, and I can guarantee you that because of this family many more families will get hurt because I can also guarantee you this precedent is followed closely by all hospitals in the US to make sure such a debacle never happens to them.

Or you think hospitals all over the US would make sure they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars to ventilate corpses until the family members make up their minds?

I honestly do not know the financial aspects in this case. But no, the hospital should not bear the financial burden if the family cannot pay for medical care. My (potentially false) assumption is that the family is paying for medical care.

 

[skye]

Don't know what I would do in that case.


One thing I know ...I pray to the Highest Power that if that happens to me I would be unplugged immediately...in fact ...I will leave this in writing for the future, just in case, that's how strong I feel about it.

 

[Vox]

I don't see many answers to my original question, but then, I didn't offer an answer of my own in the OP.

I will now.

If Jahi was my child, I would pull the plug and end it.

Such a decision is never made lightly and it may be made more difficult because she is so young. We can see it weighs heavily on the family and I am sure it weighed heavily on the hospital staff before they rendered their decision.
I don't think it is the hospitals decision or a courts decision as to the final outcome in this situation. It is the family's decision. I disagree with the choice they have made, but it is their choice to make, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court. Theirs.

nope. it is not theirs.

when the patient is dead - it is not the family decision anymore.

she is dead and has been almost a month.

I respectfully disagree. It is their decision, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court and not yours.

If one does not like the definition of death by "brain death"( and it is very confusing to many, obviously) - change the definition, not make the circus of money making from the death.

It is a bad precedent, and I can guarantee you that because of this family many more families will get hurt because I can also guarantee you this precedent is followed closely by all hospitals in the US to make sure such a debacle never happens to them.

Or you think hospitals all over the US would make sure they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars to ventilate corpses until the family members make up their minds?

I honestly do not know the financial aspects in this case. But no, the hospital should not bear the financial burden if the family cannot pay for medical care. My (potentially false) assumption is that the family is paying for medical care.

the moment the patient is medically and legally DEAD as is the case here - the family has no say on the matter.
as it should be, because after the definition of death nobody pays for the extended "care".

If the family wants "care" indefinitely - they can pay for it by themselves, but that is not the case here, as is obvious - the family is poor and even not so poor family won't be able to pay for - what, exactly?

In order to let the family have the say on a legally and medically dead patient the way death is defined has to be changed or the way the payments for such a decision are secured has to be changed.

Honestly, I think the family is confused by the legal team, which has their own plans and goals, because even if they benefit from the money they are getting I do not think they are capable of inventing the scheme where much bigger chunk of money is viewed as possible to obtain.

 

[Jackson]

I think what Vox has said makes a great deal of sense in this case. As a parent, I would have had a difficult time letting go of my child, but never a month with the doctors assuring me that my child is brain dead. There is a time when you honor your cgild and let him or her go to the next phase.

Even if as a parent you do not believe in the Here After, a parent begins to dishonor their child's memory letting their body just lie there when the memories should be uppermost in your mind.

It's time and any other distractions just become , after a while, insidious.

 

[tinydancer]

My mother signed a deal. Do not resuscitate.The agony is unreal.

We face ethical questions now that in the past wouldn't exist. Somehow we have to come to terms with our brave new world.

Every so often, you stop speaking in evil tongues and say something quite human and humane.

Our social mores and customs have not kept up with out technology but we have always been pretty cowardly about such things. Even if one signs a DNR, some states (Texasss, for example) can ignore it. Same with some doctors and hospitals. And, of course, if even one family member objects, it all falls apart and you're stuck on a respirator until you rot.

The individual's wishes are routinely ignored in favor of taking a safe way out.

You always have to remember I am a classical liberal

In a heartbeat if I didn't think someone could abuse it I'd rock with Kevorkian. Seen too many beloveds.

My father was reduced to less than 60 pounds and me of all people carrying him back and forth to the toilet.

Daniel Boone my father. I carried him at the end of days. Ever carry your daddy that way at the end?

 

[skye]

My mother signed a deal. Do not resuscitate.The agony is unreal.

We face ethical questions now that in the past wouldn't exist. Somehow we have to come to terms with our brave new world.

Every so often, you stop speaking in evil tongues and say something quite human and humane.

Our social mores and customs have not kept up with out technology but we have always been pretty cowardly about such things. Even if one signs a DNR, some states (Texasss, for example) can ignore it. Same with some doctors and hospitals. And, of course, if even one family member objects, it all falls apart and you're stuck on a respirator until you rot.

The individual's wishes are routinely ignored in favor of taking a safe way out.

You always have to remember I am a classical liberal

In a heartbeat if I didn't think someone could abuse it I'd rock with Kevorkian. Seen too many beloveds.

My father was reduced to less than 60 pounds and me of all people carrying him back and forth to the toilet.

Daniel Boone my father. I carried him at the end of days. Ever carry your daddy that way at the end?

Stop talking in tongues damn it!


nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I love you!

 

[alan1]

nope. it is not theirs.

when the patient is dead - it is not the family decision anymore.

she is dead and has been almost a month.

I respectfully disagree. It is their decision, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court and not yours.

If one does not like the definition of death by "brain death"( and it is very confusing to many, obviously) - change the definition, not make the circus of money making from the death.

It is a bad precedent, and I can guarantee you that because of this family many more families will get hurt because I can also guarantee you this precedent is followed closely by all hospitals in the US to make sure such a debacle never happens to them.

Or you think hospitals all over the US would make sure they lose hundreds of thousands of dollars to ventilate corpses until the family members make up their minds?

I honestly do not know the financial aspects in this case. But no, the hospital should not bear the financial burden if the family cannot pay for medical care. My (potentially false) assumption is that the family is paying for medical care.

the moment the patient is medically and legally DEAD as is the case here - the family has no say on the matter.
as it should be, because after the definition of death nobody pays for the extended "care".

If the family wants "care" indefinitely - they can pay for it by themselves, but that is not the case here, as is obvious - the family is poor and even not so poor family won't be able to pay for - what, exactly?

In order to let the family have the say on a legally and medically dead patient the way death is defined has to be changed or the way the payments for such a decision are secured has to be changed.

Honestly, I think the family is confused by the legal team, which has their own plans and goals, because even if they benefit from the money they are getting I do not think they are capable of inventing the scheme where much bigger chunk of money is viewed as possible to obtain.

Even though I think the decision made by the family is incorrect, it is still their decision to make.
If they want to continue paying for "care", let them, or if they can get charitable donations to support the care, let them.
I don't think it is within my right to deny them.

 

[Mr. H.]

My mother signed a deal. Do not resuscitate.The agony is unreal. Standing aside. Oh the poor nurses. And oh poor me. It's horrible.

We face ethical questions now that in the past wouldn't exist. Somehow we have to come to terms with our brave new world.

With me mum, there was no DNR in file.
So they did R. And it prolonged the inevitable. For three days. It was rough watching the monitor as various organs failed.


Sent from my ass using USMessageBoard.com

 

[Vox]

I respectfully disagree. It is their decision, not mine, not the doctors, not the hospital, not the court and not yours.


I honestly do not know the financial aspects in this case. But no, the hospital should not bear the financial burden if the family cannot pay for medical care. My (potentially false) assumption is that the family is paying for medical care.

the moment the patient is medically and legally DEAD as is the case here - the family has no say on the matter.
as it should be, because after the definition of death nobody pays for the extended "care".

If the family wants "care" indefinitely - they can pay for it by themselves, but that is not the case here, as is obvious - the family is poor and even not so poor family won't be able to pay for - what, exactly?

In order to let the family have the say on a legally and medically dead patient the way death is defined has to be changed or the way the payments for such a decision are secured has to be changed.

Honestly, I think the family is confused by the legal team, which has their own plans and goals, because even if they benefit from the money they are getting I do not think they are capable of inventing the scheme where much bigger chunk of money is viewed as possible to obtain.

Even though I think the decision made by the family is incorrect, it is still their decision to make.
If they want to continue paying for "care", let them, or if they can get charitable donations to support the care, let them.
I don't think it is within my right to deny them.

No, it is NOT.
Not in the current medico-legal circumstances.
Change them first - and the family might have that right - in the future. they do not now. the circus enacted through the courts is one of the examples why our medical costs are through the roof and why we are in debt of 17 trillion.

This circus won't be possible in ANY single payer system, btw - nobody would even consider listening to the ridiculous claims the family makes after the patient is declared brain dead.

This would not be possible in the future - as I have previously stated, the hospitals will make sure, they won't lose hundreds of thousands or even millions because uneducated family considers a dead person to be alive.

And we all will pay for that - that's for sure.

 

[Katzndogz]

The family no doubt started off in shock and grief. They initially couldn't accept the girl's death. When the money started coming in, they changed as many people do.

The proper course of action that a reputable attorney would recommend would be to have an autopsy as soon as possible to determine what if anything was done wrong that caused her death. To see an attorney wanting additional operating on a body that has basically become potential evidence in a malpractice case is like seeing some dumbo say "Hell yeah we want that evidence to be tampered with."

A death certificate has been issued. If the family is going to insist that she's still alive, she obviously isn't going to arrive at any destination alive. Will they then claim she died in transit and they need money to bring her home?