Israeli Apartheid

[Roudy]

The same people that support the Israeli left, are the ones that also support the American left. Which means they do not have the best interests of Israel, or the United States in their minds. Leftist ideology supersedes everything, faith, life, liberty, and country.

 

[Billo_Really]

Thread please There will not be one

I'm not your organ monkey!

 

[Rigby5]

The same people that support the Israeli left, are the ones that also support the American left. Which means they do not have the best interests of Israel, or the United States in their minds. Leftist ideology supersedes everything, faith, life, liberty, and country.

Basic principles, like rights, freedom, representation, property ownership, etc., are all that should count, NOT "the interests of Israel, or the United States".

And clearly the Levant is NOT a Jewish homeland, but no religion should ever control any country.
The Hebrew illegally invaded the Levant around 1000 BC and were so corrupt that they were quickly defeated and kicked out by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Romans, and anyone else who was an actual native or had any interests there.
The native of the Levant were the Canaanites, and it is obvious who the Bad Guy was when Joshua massacred Canaanite women and children in Jericho.

The facts are that census data around WWI shows an insignificant Jewish population in the Levant.
The current Jews in Israel are all descendants of recent immigrants, mostly there illegally.

 

[Grau]

The same people that support the Israeli left, are the ones that also support the American left. Which means they do not have the best interests of Israel, or the United States in their minds. Leftist ideology supersedes everything, faith, life, liberty, and country.

I'm an American Veteran and Second Amendment supporter who has little to do with leftist causes.
Additionally, I walked and hitch hiked around the Middle East for 10 - 11 months and have followed Middle East events for 60 years.

After spending plenty of time in America's V.A. hospitals with much younger, severely wounded Veterans, I strongly oppose Israel's provocations that could do easily escalate into a major conflict with young American GIs in the middle.

Did you know that there are already thousands of American GIs already in Israel who will be put under Israeli command in the event of hostilities?

Are you OK with that?

Thanks,

 

[USAF 2023]

I'm not your organ monkey!

Because such a link doesn’t exist; You liar.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: An Alternative View of Reality
※→ Rigby5, et al,

Basic principles, like rights, freedom, representation, property ownership, etc., are all that should count, NOT "the interests of Israel, or the United States".

(COMMENT)

This is a rather utopian idea. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all know that they all have the same Supreme Being in common (The God of Abraham). They all have some sacred scripture of a similar nature (The Bible, The Torah, and The Koran). And they all believe that they serve the Supreme Being in a very proper way. Getting them to agree on the "Proper Way" is another matter. In reality, there is no set pathway to conflict resolution.

The nature of the generally accepted principles, rights, and freedoms you espouse or outlined in the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)(1966 → a half-century ago). The Levant has been a troubled land for more than three millennia.

And clearly the Levant is NOT a Jewish homeland, but no religion should ever control any country.

The Hebrew illegally invaded the Levant around 1000 BC

(COMMENT)

Ask yourself: What is a "homeland?" Like religions, the individual impression of where a homeland is → "is up to the people" (Self-Determination: Part I • Article 1 • First sentence • CCPR) who establish self-government institutions, sovereignty, and the "Rule of Law."

Many of The American Indian Tribes believed that "no religion should ever control any country." That is a controversial concept.

The facts are that census data around WWI shows an insignificant Jewish population in the Levant.
The current Jews in Israel are all descendants of recent immigrants, mostly there illegally.

(COMMENT)

The entire concept of what is legal (?) is debatable. Knowing that you cannot apply the concepts of the 21st Century to the time when the Pope Crowned Kings; or when the Pope unilaterally ordered the death of the Knights Templar, and approved the Holy Inquisition.

A good analysis must include a look at the current reality of the situation.

✦ What do the treaties say? ​

​

✦ Who are the actors in the mix?​

​

Trying to determine what is relevant prior to 1948 is going to swivel the logic.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: An Alternative View of Reality
※→ Rigby5, et al,

(COMMENT)

This is a rather utopian idea. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all know that they all have the same Supreme Being in common (The God of Abraham). They all have some sacred scripture of a similar nature (The Bible, The Torah, and The Koran). And they all believe that they serve the Supreme Being in a very proper way. Getting them to agree on the "Proper Way" is another matter. In reality, there is no set pathway to conflict resolution.

The nature of the generally accepted principles, rights, and freedoms you espouse or outlined in the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)(1966 → a half-century ago). The Levant has been a troubled land for more than three millennia.


(COMMENT)

Ask yourself: What is a "homeland?" Like religions, the individual impression of where a homeland is → "is up to the people" (Self-Determination: Part I • Article 1 • First sentence • CCPR) who establish self-government institutions, sovereignty, and the "Rule of Law."

Many of The American Indian Tribes believed that "no religion should ever control any country." That is a controversial concept.


(COMMENT)

The entire concept of what is legal (?) is debatable. Knowing that you cannot apply the concepts of the 21st Century to the time when the Pope Crowned Kings; or when the Pope unilaterally ordered the death of the Knights Templar, and approved the Holy Inquisition.

A good analysis must include a look at the current reality of the situation.

✦ What do the treaties say? ​

​

✦ Who are the actors in the mix?​

​

Trying to determine what is relevant prior to 1948 is going to swivel the logic.

Most Respectfully,
R

✦ What do the treaties say?

Excellent Question. Only treaties can determine land and borders. The normal residents have the sovereignty inside their defined territory.

You are the expert. Can you list the treaties since WWI that can clarify the questions on this board as to land, borders, and sovereignty?

I await your response.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: An Alternative View of Reality
※→ Rigby5, et al,

Excellent Question. Only treaties can determine land and borders. The normal residents have the sovereignty inside their defined territory.

You are the expert. Can you list the treaties since WWI that can clarify the questions on this board as to land, borders, and sovereignty?

I await your response.

(COMMENT)

Once again, I list for you those treaties. REMEMBER:
Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Done at Vienna on 23 May 1969
Part I • Article I • Paragraph 1a:

(a) “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;​

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement Oslo II (1995)•
◈ Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel •
◈ Golan Heights Law •
◈ Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979) •

United Nations — Treaty Series​

Article II. The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, 1 without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •

Article 3 - International Boundary​

1.​	The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.​
2.​	The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.​
3.​	The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.​
4.​	The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.​
5.​	It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.​
6.​	Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).​
7.​	The parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.​
8.​	Taking into account the special circumstances of the Baqura/Naharayim area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agree to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).​
9.​	With respect to the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

◈ Letter dated 12 June 2000 from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon •

You might notice that the Treaty with Jordan includes the entirety of the West Bank, and Jerusalem. The treaty with Egypt included the entire Gaza Strip. However, Israel abandoned the Gaza Strip.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

(a) “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement Oslo II (1995)•

So then, Palestine is a state.

When did that happen?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: An Alternative View of Reality
※→ Rigby5, et al,


(COMMENT)

Once again, I list for you those treaties. REMEMBER:
Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Done at Vienna on 23 May 1969
Part I • Article I • Paragraph 1a:

(a) “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation;​

◈ Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement Oslo II (1995)•
◈ Basic Law: Jerusalem, Capital of Israel •
◈ Golan Heights Law •
◈ Egypt and Israel Treaty of Peace (1979) •

United Nations — Treaty Series​

Article II. The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, 1 without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​

◈ Jordan-Israeli Peace Treaty (1994) •

​

​

​ Article 3 - International Boundary​

​

1.​	​ The international boundary between Jordan and Israel is delimited with reference to the boundary definition under the Mandate as is shown in Annex I (a), on the mapping materials attached thereto and coordinates specified therein.​
2.​	​ The boundary, as set out in Annex I (a), is the permanent, secure and recognized international boundary between Jordan and Israel, without prejudice to the status of any territories that came under Israeli military government control in 1967.​
3.​	​ The Parties recognize the international boundary, as well as each other's territory, territorial waters and airspace, as inviolable, and will respect and comply with them.​
4.​	​ The demarcation of the boundary will take place as set forth in Appendix (I) to Annex I and will be concluded not later than 9 months after the signing of the Treaty.​
5.​	​ It is agreed that where the boundary follows a river, in the event of natural changes in the course of the flow of the river as described in Annex I (a), the boundary shall follow the new course of the flow. In the event of any other changes the boundary shall not be affected unless otherwise agreed.​
6.​	​ Immediately upon the exchange of the instruments of ratification of this Treaty, each Party will deploy on its side of the international boundary as defined in Annex I (a).​
7.​	​ The parties shall, upon the signature of the Treaty, enter into negotiations to conclude, within 9 months, an agreement on the delimitation of their maritime boundary in the Gulf of Aqaba.​
8.​	​ Taking into account the special circumstances of the Baqura/Naharayim area, which is under Jordanian sovereignty, with Israeli private ownership rights, the Parties agree to apply the provisions set out in Annex I (b).​
9.​	​ With respect to the Al-Ghamr/Zofar area, the provisions set out in Annex I (c) will apply.​

◈ Letter dated 12 June 2000 from the Permanent Representative of Lebanon •

You might notice that the Treaty with Jordan includes the entirety of the West Bank, and Jerusalem. The treaty with Egypt included the entire Gaza Strip. However, Israel abandoned the Gaza Strip.

Most Respectfully,
R

None of those are border treaties with Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Oslo Accords did NOT create a State.

So then, Palestine is a state.

When did that happen?

(COMMENT)

The Oslo Accords represent an Interim Agreement Government of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). It is not an agreement concluded between States. It is an agreement between a state and the PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

None of those are border treaties with Palestine.

(QUESTION)

There was no sovereignty called Palestine at the time. What entity do you call Palestine? Even today, the Palestinians are a fractured and splintered disorganized entity.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Likkmee]

IsNtReal will be under two meters of blood. Make sure your cameras are fully charged.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

The Oslo Accords did NOT create a State.


(COMMENT)

The Oslo Accords represent an Interim Agreement Government of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO). It is not an agreement concluded between States. It is an agreement between a state and the PLO.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where did the PLO get the authority to make an agreement for the Palestinians?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

(QUESTION)

There was no sovereignty called Palestine at the time. What entity do you call Palestine? Even today, the Palestinians are a fractured and splintered disorganized entity.

Most Respectfully,
R

So then, who is going to sign all of these final status agreements?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

(QUESTION)

There was no sovereignty called Palestine at the time. What entity do you call Palestine? Even today, the Palestinians are a fractured and splintered disorganized entity.

Most Respectfully,
R

From the river to the sea Palestine will be free is chanted around the world. What Palestine are they talking about?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Oslo Accords did NOT create a State.

I never said they did.

 

[Roudy]

Basic principles, like rights, freedom, representation, property ownership, etc., are all that should count, NOT "the interests of Israel, or the United States".

And clearly the Levant is NOT a Jewish homeland, but no religion should ever control any country.
The Hebrew illegally invaded the Levant around 1000 BC and were so corrupt that they were quickly defeated and kicked out by the Babylonians, Assyrians, Romans, and anyone else who was an actual native or had any interests there.
The native of the Levant were the Canaanites, and it is obvious who the Bad Guy was when Joshua massacred Canaanite women and children in Jericho.

The facts are that census data around WWI shows an insignificant Jewish population in the Levant.
The current Jews in Israel are all descendants of recent immigrants, mostly there illegally.

Of course that is made up bullshit, but we‘ve lost count. It’s the Muslims that have invaded, occupied, looted, etc. other people’s lands in order to “Islamicize” the land. Also, you need to study your history, Islam came after Judaism and Christianity, which means the people they invaded and brutalized were already there…duh.

 

[Roudy]

From the river to the sea Palestine will be free is chanted around the world. What Palestine are they talking about?

Refugees misled and brainwashed thinking they somehow own a land they squatted on, they have zero rights to.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Israeli Apartheid
SUBTOPIC: Agreement
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Where did the PLO get the authority to make an agreement for the Palestinians?

(COMMENT)

Seventh Arab League Summit Conference
Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974

" To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;"​

From the river to the sea Palestine will be free is chanted around the world. What Palestine are they talking about?

(COMMENT)

This is a chant of "wishful Thinking" on the part of the anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian associates. At every opportunity given to the Arab Palestinians, from (basically) 1920 to the present, rejected to participate in any move to attain self-determination. Now they have an internal squabble between the two principles (Gaza 'vs' Rahmalla Governments) and are caught in a dictatorship in both portions of the territory Gaza Strip (HAMAS) 'vs' West Bank (PA). Just about the only sovereignty the Arab Palestinians can claim is the Gaza Strip that the Israelis threw away, and Area "A" (and even that is questionable). The "river to the sea" mantra refers to a territory that is, for all practical purposes, not under Arab Palestinian control and/or sovereignty - or Palestinian Government that can stand alone.

In the seven-decade of donor contributions, any progress the Arab Palestinians have made was either accidental, dumb luck, or made possible by some outside influence. The stock answer to this is: that they were kept down by the Israelis.

It is not reasonable to assume that the Arab Palestinians can assemble a viable government in the next decade that is even partially self-sufficient (no matter how much money the donors throw at them). It would take a supernatural happening to achieve that degree of success.

(Figure the odds!)

Most Respectfully,
R