Israel Rescues Another Hostage

[Shusha]

Oh brother.

It is an interesting thought and not impossible. The difficulties would be many.

The Palestinians would need to make a cultural shift from an identity rooted in conflict and hatred towards Jews to something else. Changing their educational system for a start, to remove the ideology of violence while still preserving their culture, identity and history. Heavy lift.

100% agree.

The Israeli’s would have to address their own demons. The inequalities and anti-Arab bigotry in their own system, and like it or not, acknowledging that events like Nakba are part of their shared history as well.

Mostly agree. The Arabs will have to acknowledge their own accountability for the Nakba.

But the real obstacle imo? Religion. On both sides.

Agree. But not a "both sides" issue. A one side issue. Muslims will have to, at the least, share (like for real, not status quo) the Temple Mount. They will have to recognize and respect Jewish history.

 

[Lisa558]

Hamas CAN be (and largely has been) defeated by military means.

Hamas is not an idea. It's a government (now dismantled). It is a terrorist group (mostly "martyred"). It is a group of people with the capacity for violence (largely incapacitated).

The idea that needs to be defeated is the idea that Israel should or can be destroyed. That idea is only going to be defeated through close and peaceful and sustained contact with Israelis and Jews. And that can only happen under Israeli sovereignty.

We have the solution. We've had it for a hundred years. We just need the guts to implement it.

In retrospect, Israel was being too kind by allowing the so-called Palestinians to govern themselves. They elected HAMAS terrorists whose main objective is to destroy Israel.

After the ‘67 war, Israel should have moved in with total control over these people. If they had, they would have eliminated the anti-Jew brainwashing by now, but of course they wanted to appease the world, already chock-full of antisemites, by showing a more generous approach and allowing the Palestinians to govern themselves.

They will not make that mistake again. If no Arab country is willing to take these people in, then Israel needs to take over control.

 

[Lisa558]

Look. I get that you hate Muslims, ok? You hate a lot of groups. So do others. That’s part of the problem. Hate (and ignorance and fear) drives violence and whether you acknowledge it or not, the numbers don’t lie. You can pretend it isn’t a problem but it is. Talk to those affected.

It isn’t a competition.

And I’m not sure what this diversion has to do with Hamas or ethnic cleansing.

Stop focusing on painting me as a “hater,” and focus on the problem: HAMAS cockroaches that have unleashed a torrent of antisemitism, where Israel is blamed for what the monsters did. You have more disdain for ME because I won’t kowtow to the anti-Israel liberal mindset than you do for evil people.

We get that you hate Israel and have hostile attitudes toward Jews who won’t shut up about being victims of antisemitism, and that’s because you side with Muslims. As does Harris.

 

[Coyote]

Hamas CAN be (and largely has been) defeated by military means.

Hamas is not an idea. It's a government (now dismantled). It is a terrorist group (mostly "martyred"). It is a group of people with the capacity for violence (largely incapacitated).

The idea that needs to be defeated is the idea that Israel should or can be destroyed. That idea is only going to be defeated through close and peaceful and sustained contact with Israelis and Jews. And that can only happen under Israeli sovereignty.

We have the solution. We've had it for a hundred years. We just need the guts to implement it.

What I bolded, I strongly agree. When separation increased, through physical barriers, restrictions, check points etc. so did demonization and alienation. And now we have several generations who have lived that way. When you are working together, eating together, it is easier to acknowledge a shared humanity.

 

[Lisa558]

What I bolded, I strongly agree. When separation increased, through physical barriers, restrictions, check points etc. so did demonization and alienation. And now we have several generations who have lived that way. When you are working together, eating together, it is easier to acknowledge a shared humanity.

Not if one group has been taught from toddlerhood that it is admirable to want to kill Jews, and to want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.

The problem is that you see Palestinians and Israelis as equals in terms of morals, upbringing, and attitudes. There is nowhere is the Hebrew Bible that talks about Muslims negatively. But Mohammed called Jews the offspring of rats and apes.

The two groups of people are not equals. It’s a leftist thing to see people as all equals, which is why we get the “both sides do it” remark all the time.

 

[Coyote]

Not if one group has been taught from toddlerhood that it is admirable to want to kill Jews, and to want Israel wiped off the face of the Earth.

It is easier to combat and prevent those beliefs when people interact more.

The problem is that you see Palestinians and Israelis as equals in terms of morals, upbringing, and attitudes. There is nowhere is the Hebrew Bible that talks about Muslims negatively. But Mohammed called Jews the offspring of rats and apes.

When it comes to religion there is a lot contradiction, violence, misogyny and acts of hatred against other communities, often called for or done by God. There is a lot of evil done in the name of God. When you have worldwide religions you also have cultural differences among followers.

It is also worth noting that Islam did not exist until several thousand years after the Hebrew Bible was written.

I doubt anyone was psychic enough to write about Muslims. I am quite sure my Muslim (Bangladeshi) coworker is as “moral” as any Christian or a Jew.

The two groups of people are not equals. It’s a leftist thing to see people as all equals, which is why we get the “both sides do it” remark all the time.

Woah…so equality is now “leftist”. There is too much to unpack here so I’ll leave it.

 

[Matted Joybeard]

The least odious solution is a sovereign Israel. It's going to suck for 50 years. For everyone. But 50 years from now, the Gazan Arabs of Israel will be proud of their nation in the same way that Arab Israelis are now. They will be fighting for it, instead of fighting against it.

And maybe, one day, after many decades of peace, if they still want it, the people of Gaza can secede from Israel and form their own state.

How does Israel absorb the Palestinians of Gaza as citizens? What happens to the West Bank?

 

[Mac-7]

Look. I get that you hate Muslims, ok? You hate a lot of groups. So do others. That’s part of the problem. Hate (and ignorance and fear) drives violence and whether you acknowledge it or not, the numbers don’t lie. You can pretend it isn’t a problem but it is. Talk to those affected.

It isn’t a competition.

And I’m not sure what this diversion has to do with Hamas or ethnic cleansing.

I dont hate muslims

But I’m not ready for the submit-or-die thing either

So I prefer Muslims in the old country instead of here

 

[westwall]

As of 28 August 2024, 117 hostages had been returned alive to Israel, with 105 being released in a prisoner exchange deal, four released by Hamas unilaterally and eight rescued by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).[17][18


IDF doesn’t have a very good record here, nor does Netanyahu, but no surprise. His political survival is more important than the lives of the hostages or the slaughter of civilians.

Oh? I think it's pretty damned good. Hostages are ASSUMED to have been murdered from day one.

That's what your terrorists do.

That and rape and torture the female hostages.

 

[Shusha]

How does Israel absorb the Palestinians of Gaza as citizens?

Its not going to be easy. It can't be instantaneous and all-encompassing. It would have to be a process of integration. Maybe some sort of provincial system with mixed local government and federal government? Israel ensures external and internal security and administrates education, medical care, basic infrastructure. Israel collects taxes and then redistributes those taxes based on the needs of the Province of Gaza. Israel encourages economic stability and good trade partnerships. Give it 50 years or so of prosperity and economic growth and eventually Gaza is just part of Israel. Or, if there emerges a strong desire for independence, a peaceful referendum.

What happens to the West Bank?

Up to the West Bank. They can skip the horrible commission of atrocities and the resulting war and go straight to the peaceful referendum part of the equation. Or not.

 

[Coyote]

I dont hate muslims

But I’m not ready for the submit-or-die thing either

So I prefer Muslims in the old country instead of here

I don’t personally know any Muslims here calling for a submit or die thing but I am sure plenty of extremists of all faiths reside here.

 

[Coyote]

Oh? I think it's pretty damned good. Hostages are ASSUMED to have been murdered from day one.

That's what your terrorists do.

That and rape and torture the female hostages.

I don’t have any terrorists.

Do you?

 

[westwall]

I don’t have any terrorists.

Do you?

You seem to support ham-ass.

 

[Coyote]

You seem to support ham-ass.

You seem to lack reading comprehension. I make no bones about supporting the rights of Palestinians to self determination and freedom from occupation. I do not support any violence towards civilians whatsoever nor do I support the consistent dehumanizing directed at Palestinians or Jews here. How you get “supporting Hamas” out of that is baffling but it is certainly a well used tactic to shut down any attempts to discuss the Palestinians outside of a subhuman context.

How about you? To use your logic…you seem to support killing kids.

 

[Coyote]

Its not going to be easy. It can't be instantaneous and all-encompassing. It would have to be a process of integration. Maybe some sort of provincial system with mixed local government and federal government? Israel ensures external and internal security and administrates education, medical care, basic infrastructure. Israel collects taxes and then redistributes those taxes based on the needs of the Province of Gaza. Israel encourages economic stability and good trade partnerships. Give it 50 years or so of prosperity and economic growth and eventually Gaza is just part of Israel. Or, if there emerges a strong desire for independence, a peaceful referendum.

Well thought out…I could go for that.

Up to the West Bank. They can skip the horrible commission of atrocities and the resulting war and go straight to the peaceful referendum part of the equation. Or not.

Hard disagree. You only charge the Palestinians with making meaningful change here when the problem is as much on Israel as the West Bank Palestinians:

Increased violence directed at tbe Palestinian civilians.
A history of the government looking the way and now condoning it, encouraging it and even arming those who are committing that violence. Vigilantism.

Huge inequalities in justice when it comes to Jewish terrorists committing the same acts - no stone throwing youths get shot in the legs: no homes of terrorists get bulldozed; no administrative detention of youths and adults without charges, trials or the ability of family members visiting.
No raids and mass roundups of civilians.
As long as you have a system where one set of civilians are subject to military justice and other to a civilian system these inequalities of rights and Justice will never be resolved.


The West Bank was relatively peaceful for a long time…what’s been happening, what has changed? If civilians can’t even count on the government to protect their rights, safety etc. what are they supposed to do? You can blame the corrupt PA government, you can blame the Palestinian civilians yet in the end Israel has the power to override anything or take anyone with out explanation or any transparency and only Israel has power over their own civilians.

 

[Slyhunter]

Its not going to be easy. It can't be instantaneous and all-encompassing. It would have to be a process of integration. Maybe some sort of provincial system with mixed local government and federal government? Israel ensures external and internal security and administrates education, medical care, basic infrastructure. Israel collects taxes and then redistributes those taxes based on the needs of the Province of Gaza. Israel encourages economic stability and good trade partnerships. Give it 50 years or so of prosperity and economic growth and eventually Gaza is just part of Israel. Or, if there emerges a strong desire for independence, a peaceful referendum.

Up to the West Bank. They can skip the horrible commission of atrocities and the resulting war and go straight to the peaceful referendum part of the equation. Or not.

The end of the Jewish state of Israelis.

 

[Meathead]

Its not going to be easy. It can't be instantaneous and all-encompassing. It would have to be a process of integration. Maybe some sort of provincial system with mixed local government and federal government? Israel ensures external and internal security and administrates education, medical care, basic infrastructure. Israel collects taxes and then redistributes those taxes based on the needs of the Province of Gaza. Israel encourages economic stability and good trade partnerships. Give it 50 years or so of prosperity and economic growth and eventually Gaza is just part of Israel. Or, if there emerges a strong desire for independence, a peaceful referendum.

Up to the West Bank. They can skip the horrible commission of atrocities and the resulting war and go straight to the peaceful referendum part of the equation. Or not.

The onus on getting rid of Hamas is on the Gazans, but they won't. They are either fanatics, cowards or both..

 

[Mac-7]

I don’t personally know any Muslims here calling for a submit or die thing but I am sure plenty of extremists of all faiths reside here.

The entire religion is based on violence

According to the Koran mohammed spread islam by putting unbelievers to death

 

[Lisa558]

A big problem the anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian posters (who are 95% leftists) are making is that they are assuming Palestinians are mostly decent non-antisemitic people who will accept being under the control of a Jewish-controlled government. IOW, due to the leftists’ bias in favor of Muslims, they are giving them too much credit.

MOST support what HAMAS did to the poor Jews on October 7th, and many in fact are aiding HAMAS - or have a relative involved with HAMAS. They are driven by their indoctrination that the goal is to wipe out Israel and all her Jews.

CERTAIN leftists will castigate any Jew who brings up the above - “you hate Muslims….you're a bigot…..etc.,” but their pro-Muslim bias won’t allow them to face the facts that what I’ve said is true.

It will be a long, arduous struggle to “normalize” the Palestinians, and it will likely take two full generations. It is also likely that the Palestinians will ATTEMPT to initiate attacks during the first years of the transition, which is why in addition to the Israeli government being placed there, there will be a strong military presence.

OF course, the naive pro-Palestinians will continue to cry that these “innocent” people are “oppressed,” but their lives will be better with normal education and better infrastructure.

 

[Mac-7]

A big problem the anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian posters (who are 95% leftists) are making is that they are assuming Palestinians are mostly decent non-antisemitic people who will accept being under the control of a Jewish-controlled government. IOW, due to the leftists’ bias in favor of Muslims, they are giving them too much credit.

MOST support what HAMAS did to the poor Jews on October 7th, and many in fact are aiding HAMAS - or have a relative involved with HAMAS. They are driven by their indoctrination that the goal is to wipe out Israel and all her Jews.

CERTAIN leftists will castigate any Jew who brings up the above - “you hate Muslims….you're a bigot…..etc.,” but their pro-Muslim bias won’t allow them to face the facts that what I’ve said is true.

It will be a long, arduous struggle to “normalize” the Palestinians, and it will likely take two full generations. It is also likely that the Palestinians will ATTEMPT to initiate attacks during the first years of the transition, which is why in addition to the Israeli government being placed there, there will be a strong military presence.

OF course, the naive pro-Palestinians will continue to cry that these “innocent” people are “oppressed,” but their lives will be better with normal education and better infrastructure.

Libs seem to think Hamas fighters are space aliens from some place other than Gaza and the West Bank

Hamas fighters are Pals themselves