5stringJeff
Senior Member
I think I'll pray for peace to come to Israel in the form of the surrounding countries cracking down on terrorists and normal diplomatic negotitations between Israel and its neighbors.
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Israel / Palestine
- Thread starter Bry
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
T
TRIVILINA68
Guest
ABUSIVE SALVAGE, ISRAEL CRIMINALS USE YOUR POWER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. GOD WILL PUNISH ISRAEL ..
Originally posted by TRIVILINA68
ABUSIVE SALVAGE, ISRAEL CRIMINALS USE YOUR POWER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. GOD WILL PUNISH ISRAEL ..
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Have another toke, dude! :finger:
J
janeeng
Guest
Who gives a crap what Isreal is doing! is the USA supposed to jump in there too? Sorry, enough is enough in my eyes! you want to kill one another, then have fun! I will agree with Jeff though!
Originally posted by jimnyc
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Have another toke, dude! :finger:
Some may wonder why I laughed at you. Would you like to tell them, Trivilina68?
As Bugs Bunny would say, "what a maroon"!
ABUSIVE SALVAGE, ISRAEL CRIMINALS USE YOUR POWER TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. GOD WILL PUNISH ISRAEL ..
I just hate it when someone calls me salvage. I prefer to think of myself as USDA Choice Beefcake!
My wife can verify this, btw.
Obviously you think Israel is misbehaving - what would you do if your citizens were being blown up by the busload? Send them flowers with an apologetic note asking not to kill any more?
Personally, I think the Palestinians are being duped by Arafat into attacking & killing women and children in the name of Allah. The Palestinian leadership needs to go so that peace can be achieved - 30 years of bloodshed is too much.
Barring the deportation idea, Arafat needs to be neutralized with a bullet. Better that he die than the next 17 year old kid suckered into strapping C4 around his waist and stepping onto a bus or a club with 78 civilian innocents.
D
dickdear2003
Guest
You mispeak...
Shron is indeed an obstacle to peace....
but he is not a convicted War Criminal
And your characterisation of Israel is biased...and terribly
disproportionate
it is the only democracy in the mideast....it has Arabs in its Knesset (compare this to any of the Arab countries)
and while there are some understandable restrictions on its Arab citizens (based on the suspect loyalty of some) they are citizens nonetheless....
AND ARE THE ONLY ARABS IN THE WORLD WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE... THE RIGHT OF ASSEMBLY..... THE RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH...
Shron is indeed an obstacle to peace....
but he is not a convicted War Criminal
And your characterisation of Israel is biased...and terribly
disproportionate
it is the only democracy in the mideast....it has Arabs in its Knesset (compare this to any of the Arab countries)
and while there are some understandable restrictions on its Arab citizens (based on the suspect loyalty of some) they are citizens nonetheless....
AND ARE THE ONLY ARABS IN THE WORLD WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE... THE RIGHT OF ASSEMBLY..... THE RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH...
D
dickdear2003
Guest
Dear bry
Sharon is no angel...and probably an obstacle to peace....but he is NOT a convicted war criminal.
And your charcterization of Israel with second class citizens
is a canard:
1. The few restrictions on Arab Israelis required by security are guite logical...and they still have the right to vote, free speech,
religion, assembly, press and to criticize the government...AND TO SIT IN THE KNESSET.
2. Name an Arab counry that gives ANY of these rights to
Any of its citizens
Sharon is no angel...and probably an obstacle to peace....but he is NOT a convicted war criminal.
And your charcterization of Israel with second class citizens
is a canard:
1. The few restrictions on Arab Israelis required by security are guite logical...and they still have the right to vote, free speech,
religion, assembly, press and to criticize the government...AND TO SIT IN THE KNESSET.
2. Name an Arab counry that gives ANY of these rights to
Any of its citizens
M
mr.conti
Guest
Paul Findley, US Congressman of 22 years wrote this article.
Every American should read it:
http://www.mediamonitors.net/findley2.html
by Paul Findley
Nine-eleven would not have occurred if the U.S. government had refused to help Israel humiliate and destroy Palestinian society. Few express this conclusion publicly, but many believe it is the truth. I believe the catastrophe could have been prevented if any U.S. president during the past 35 years had had the courage and wisdom to suspend all U.S. aid until Israel withdrew from the Arab land seized in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
The U.S. lobby for Israel is powerful and intimidating, but any determined president-even President Bush this very day-could prevail and win overwhelming public support for the suspension of aid by laying these facts before the American people:
Israel's present government, like its predecessors, is determined to annex the West Bank-biblical Judea and Samaria - so Israel will become Greater Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who maintain a powerful role in Israeli politics, believe the Jewish Messiah will not come until Greater Israel is a reality. Although a minority in Israel, they are committed, aggressive, and influential. Because of deep religious conviction, they are determined to prevent Palestinians from gaining statehood on any part of the West Bank.
In its violent assaults on Palestinians, Israel uses the pretext of eradicating terrorism, but its forces are actually engaged advancing the territorial expansion just cited. Under the guise of anti-terrorism, Israeli forces treat Palestinians worse than cattle. With due process nowhere to be found, hundreds are detained for long periods and most are tortured. Some are assassinated. Homes, orchards, and business places are destroyed. Entire cities are kept under intermittent curfew, some confinements lasting for weeks. Injured or ill Palestinians needing emergency medical care are routinely held at checkpoints for an hour or more. Many children are undernourished. The West Bank and Gaza have become giant concentration camps. None of this could have occurred without U.S. support. Perhaps Israeli officials believe life will become so unbearable that most Palestinians will eventually leave their ancestral homes.
Once beloved worldwide, the U.S. government finds itself reviled in most countries because it provides unconditional support of Israeli violations of the United Nations Charter, international law, and the precepts of all major religious faiths.
How did the American people get into this fix?
Nine-eleven had its principal origin 35 years ago when Israel's U.S. lobby began its unbroken success in stifling debate about the proper U.S. role in the Arab-Israeli conflict and effectively concealed from public awareness the fact that the U.S. government gives massive uncritical support to Israel.
Thanks to the suffocating influence of Israel's U.S. lobby, open discussion of the Arab-Israeli conflict has been non-existent in our government all these years. I have firsthand knowledge, because I was a member of the House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee in June 1967 when Israeli military forces took control of the Golan Heights, a part of Syria, as well as the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza. I continued as a member for 16 years and to this day maintain a close watch on Congress.
For 35 years, not a word has been expressed in that committee or in either chamber of Congress that deserves to be called debate on Middle East policy. No restrictive or limiting amendments on aid to Israel have been offered for 20 years, and none of the few offered in previous years received more than a handful of votes. On Capitol Hill, criticism of Israel, even in private conversation, is all but forbidden, treated as downright unpatriotic, if not anti-Semitic. The continued absence of free speech was assured when those few who spoke out-Senators Adlai Stevenson and Charles Percy, and Reps. Paul "Pete" McCloskey, Cynthia McKinney, Earl Hilliard, and myself-were defeated at the polls by candidates heavily financed by pro-Israel forces.
As a result, legislation dealing with the Middle East has been heavily biased in favor of Israel and against Palestinians and other Arabs year after year. Home constituencies, misled by news coverage equally lop-sided in Israel's favor, remain largely unaware that Congress behaves as if it were a subcommittee of the Israeli parliament.
However, the bias is widely noted beyond America, where most news media candidly cover Israel's conquest and generally excoriate America's complicity and complacency. When President Bush welcomed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, sometimes called the Butcher of Beirut, as "my dear friend" and "a man of peace" after Israeli forces, using U.S.-donated arms, completed their devastation of the West Bank last spring, worldwide anger against American policy reached the boiling point.
The fury should surprise no one who reads foreign newspapers or listens to BBC. In several televised statements long before 9/11, Osama bin Laden, believed by U.S. authorities to have masterminded 9/11, cited U.S. complicity in Israel's destruction of Palestinian society as a principal complaint. Prominent foreigners, in and out of government, express their opposition to U.S. policies with unprecedented frequency and severity, especially since Bush announced his determination to make war against Iraq.
The lobby's intimidation remains pervasive. It seems to reach every government center and even houses of worship and revered institutions of higher learning. It is highly effective in silencing the many U.S. Jews who object to the lobby's tactics and Israel's brutality.
Nothing can justify 9/11. Those guilty deserve maximum punishment, but it makes sense for America to examine motivations promptly and as carefully as possible. Terrorism almost always arises from deeply-felt grievances. If they can be eradicated or eased, terrorist passions are certain to subside.
Today, a year after 9/11, President Bush has made no attempt to redress grievances, or even to identify them. In fact, he has made the scene far worse by supporting Israel's religious war against Palestinians, an alliance that has intensified anti-American anger. He seems oblivious to the fact that nearly two billion people worldwide regard the plight of Palestinians as today's most important foreign-policy challenge. No one in authority will admit a calamitous reality that is skillfully shielded from the American people but clearly recognized by most of the world: America suffered 9/11 and its aftermath and may soon be at war with Iraq, mainly because U.S. policy in the Middle East is made in Israel, not in Washington.
Israel is a scofflaw nation and should be treated as such. Instead of helping Sharon intensify Palestinian misery, our president should suspend all aid until Israel ends its occupation of Arab land Israel seized in 1967. The suspension would force Sharon's compliance or lead to his removal from office, as the Israeli electorate will not tolerate a prime minister who is at odds with the White House.
If Bush needs an additional reason for doing the right thing, he can justify the suspension as a matter of military necessity, an essential step in winning international support for his war on terrorism. He can cite a worthy precedent. When President Abraham Lincoln issued the proclamation that freed only the slaves in states that were then in rebellion, he make the restriction because of "military necessity."
If Bush suspends U.S. aid, he will liberate all Americans from long years of bondage to Israel's misdeeds.
Mr. Paul Findley, who served as a Republican congressman from Illinois for 22 years, is the author of 'They Dare to Speak Out' and a member of the American Educational Trust's Foreign Relations Committee.
Every American should read it:
http://www.mediamonitors.net/findley2.html
by Paul Findley
Nine-eleven would not have occurred if the U.S. government had refused to help Israel humiliate and destroy Palestinian society. Few express this conclusion publicly, but many believe it is the truth. I believe the catastrophe could have been prevented if any U.S. president during the past 35 years had had the courage and wisdom to suspend all U.S. aid until Israel withdrew from the Arab land seized in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
The U.S. lobby for Israel is powerful and intimidating, but any determined president-even President Bush this very day-could prevail and win overwhelming public support for the suspension of aid by laying these facts before the American people:
Israel's present government, like its predecessors, is determined to annex the West Bank-biblical Judea and Samaria - so Israel will become Greater Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews, who maintain a powerful role in Israeli politics, believe the Jewish Messiah will not come until Greater Israel is a reality. Although a minority in Israel, they are committed, aggressive, and influential. Because of deep religious conviction, they are determined to prevent Palestinians from gaining statehood on any part of the West Bank.
In its violent assaults on Palestinians, Israel uses the pretext of eradicating terrorism, but its forces are actually engaged advancing the territorial expansion just cited. Under the guise of anti-terrorism, Israeli forces treat Palestinians worse than cattle. With due process nowhere to be found, hundreds are detained for long periods and most are tortured. Some are assassinated. Homes, orchards, and business places are destroyed. Entire cities are kept under intermittent curfew, some confinements lasting for weeks. Injured or ill Palestinians needing emergency medical care are routinely held at checkpoints for an hour or more. Many children are undernourished. The West Bank and Gaza have become giant concentration camps. None of this could have occurred without U.S. support. Perhaps Israeli officials believe life will become so unbearable that most Palestinians will eventually leave their ancestral homes.
Once beloved worldwide, the U.S. government finds itself reviled in most countries because it provides unconditional support of Israeli violations of the United Nations Charter, international law, and the precepts of all major religious faiths.
How did the American people get into this fix?
Nine-eleven had its principal origin 35 years ago when Israel's U.S. lobby began its unbroken success in stifling debate about the proper U.S. role in the Arab-Israeli conflict and effectively concealed from public awareness the fact that the U.S. government gives massive uncritical support to Israel.
Thanks to the suffocating influence of Israel's U.S. lobby, open discussion of the Arab-Israeli conflict has been non-existent in our government all these years. I have firsthand knowledge, because I was a member of the House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee in June 1967 when Israeli military forces took control of the Golan Heights, a part of Syria, as well as the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza. I continued as a member for 16 years and to this day maintain a close watch on Congress.
For 35 years, not a word has been expressed in that committee or in either chamber of Congress that deserves to be called debate on Middle East policy. No restrictive or limiting amendments on aid to Israel have been offered for 20 years, and none of the few offered in previous years received more than a handful of votes. On Capitol Hill, criticism of Israel, even in private conversation, is all but forbidden, treated as downright unpatriotic, if not anti-Semitic. The continued absence of free speech was assured when those few who spoke out-Senators Adlai Stevenson and Charles Percy, and Reps. Paul "Pete" McCloskey, Cynthia McKinney, Earl Hilliard, and myself-were defeated at the polls by candidates heavily financed by pro-Israel forces.
As a result, legislation dealing with the Middle East has been heavily biased in favor of Israel and against Palestinians and other Arabs year after year. Home constituencies, misled by news coverage equally lop-sided in Israel's favor, remain largely unaware that Congress behaves as if it were a subcommittee of the Israeli parliament.
However, the bias is widely noted beyond America, where most news media candidly cover Israel's conquest and generally excoriate America's complicity and complacency. When President Bush welcomed Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, sometimes called the Butcher of Beirut, as "my dear friend" and "a man of peace" after Israeli forces, using U.S.-donated arms, completed their devastation of the West Bank last spring, worldwide anger against American policy reached the boiling point.
The fury should surprise no one who reads foreign newspapers or listens to BBC. In several televised statements long before 9/11, Osama bin Laden, believed by U.S. authorities to have masterminded 9/11, cited U.S. complicity in Israel's destruction of Palestinian society as a principal complaint. Prominent foreigners, in and out of government, express their opposition to U.S. policies with unprecedented frequency and severity, especially since Bush announced his determination to make war against Iraq.
The lobby's intimidation remains pervasive. It seems to reach every government center and even houses of worship and revered institutions of higher learning. It is highly effective in silencing the many U.S. Jews who object to the lobby's tactics and Israel's brutality.
Nothing can justify 9/11. Those guilty deserve maximum punishment, but it makes sense for America to examine motivations promptly and as carefully as possible. Terrorism almost always arises from deeply-felt grievances. If they can be eradicated or eased, terrorist passions are certain to subside.
Today, a year after 9/11, President Bush has made no attempt to redress grievances, or even to identify them. In fact, he has made the scene far worse by supporting Israel's religious war against Palestinians, an alliance that has intensified anti-American anger. He seems oblivious to the fact that nearly two billion people worldwide regard the plight of Palestinians as today's most important foreign-policy challenge. No one in authority will admit a calamitous reality that is skillfully shielded from the American people but clearly recognized by most of the world: America suffered 9/11 and its aftermath and may soon be at war with Iraq, mainly because U.S. policy in the Middle East is made in Israel, not in Washington.
Israel is a scofflaw nation and should be treated as such. Instead of helping Sharon intensify Palestinian misery, our president should suspend all aid until Israel ends its occupation of Arab land Israel seized in 1967. The suspension would force Sharon's compliance or lead to his removal from office, as the Israeli electorate will not tolerate a prime minister who is at odds with the White House.
If Bush needs an additional reason for doing the right thing, he can justify the suspension as a matter of military necessity, an essential step in winning international support for his war on terrorism. He can cite a worthy precedent. When President Abraham Lincoln issued the proclamation that freed only the slaves in states that were then in rebellion, he make the restriction because of "military necessity."
If Bush suspends U.S. aid, he will liberate all Americans from long years of bondage to Israel's misdeeds.
Mr. Paul Findley, who served as a Republican congressman from Illinois for 22 years, is the author of 'They Dare to Speak Out' and a member of the American Educational Trust's Foreign Relations Committee.
There's a former U.S. congressman running around the world these days blaming America for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
His name is Paul Findley, and from 1961 through 1983, he served as a Republican member of the House of Representatives from the state of Illinois.
Last year, he said President Bush had it all wrong when he told the nation that we were attacked by evil and fanatical Islamic terrorists on Sept. 11. The real cause of the devastation our nation experienced that day was because of our unjustified support for the nation of Israel, he explained.
Findley shares that view with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Syrian President Bashar Assad, the mullahs of Iran, the sheikhs of Hamas and the fanatical terrorists of Hezbollah.
Just before Sept. 11, Findley released a book called "Silent No More," an attempt to improve the image of Islam in the United States and vilify his arch-enemy Israel. Obviously, the book didn't do very well in post-Sept. 11 America. But don't feel sorry for Findley. He seems to find enough money to travel the world and give speeches particularly in the Middle East.
Findley has never gotten over the fact that he was turned out of office because of his own somewhat fanatical support of Yasser Arafat in 1982, even while serving as a senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Recently, in Saudi Arabia, Findley explained the Bush administration had "overreacted" to the Sept. 11 attacks. Overreacted. He thinks most Americans don't understand the complexities of the Middle East debate because they have been hoodwinked and deceived.
"They have been misled by the American media, which is controlled by the Jewish lobby," he said.
Findley thinks he was defeated by the Jewish lobby, and he thinks Americans are deceived by the Jewish lobby.
He couldn't be more wrong.
The truth is there weren't enough Jews in his congressional district to vote him out of office in 1982 even if every single one of them opposed him. And the truth is there aren't enough Jews in this country to generate the broad political support Israel enjoys in every single public opinion survey done over the last 50 years.
Findley was turned out of office not by Jews, but by Christians. And Israel gets most of its political support in the United States not from Jews but from Christians.
Therefore, it's not the Jewish lobby that gets the credit for defeating this clown and for supporting the only free country in the Middle East, it's the Christian lobby.
Why do American Christians support Israel so loyally and enthusiastically?
The strong evangelical church in America can read the Bible and see that the Jews' only historic home is in Israel.
Most Christians understand that Jesus was a Jew who lived in a Jewish state, albeit one under the colonial rule of the Roman Empire.
They understand that God chose to reveal Himself to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.
They don't see a nation of Palestine mentioned in the Old Testament or New with good reason: It never existed before or since, except in the imaginations of people like Yasser Arafat.
They believe God made certain promises to the nation of Israel and that today's Jewish state is a manifestation of those promises.
They understand that their Holy Scriptures indicate God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse it. They don't want to be on the wrong side of that spiritual equation.
They understand their own salvation, in the person of Jesus, chose to come through the House of David and minister principally to the Jews.
They grasp that the Jews alone with the help of God, of course have made the deserts bloom in that Holy land, just as the prophets predicted.
They comprehend that the Jews alone formed a free society in the Middle East.
They can see that Israel has been an ally to the United States and a friend to the free world throughout its 50-year history of rebirth.
In other words, Christians can see what people like Findley can't. Anti-Semites like Findley aren't only at war with a few million Jews, they are doing battle with hundreds of millions of Christians. And, more importantly, they are doing battle with the will of God.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30690
His name is Paul Findley, and from 1961 through 1983, he served as a Republican member of the House of Representatives from the state of Illinois.
Last year, he said President Bush had it all wrong when he told the nation that we were attacked by evil and fanatical Islamic terrorists on Sept. 11. The real cause of the devastation our nation experienced that day was because of our unjustified support for the nation of Israel, he explained.
Findley shares that view with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Syrian President Bashar Assad, the mullahs of Iran, the sheikhs of Hamas and the fanatical terrorists of Hezbollah.
Just before Sept. 11, Findley released a book called "Silent No More," an attempt to improve the image of Islam in the United States and vilify his arch-enemy Israel. Obviously, the book didn't do very well in post-Sept. 11 America. But don't feel sorry for Findley. He seems to find enough money to travel the world and give speeches particularly in the Middle East.
Findley has never gotten over the fact that he was turned out of office because of his own somewhat fanatical support of Yasser Arafat in 1982, even while serving as a senior member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Recently, in Saudi Arabia, Findley explained the Bush administration had "overreacted" to the Sept. 11 attacks. Overreacted. He thinks most Americans don't understand the complexities of the Middle East debate because they have been hoodwinked and deceived.
"They have been misled by the American media, which is controlled by the Jewish lobby," he said.
Findley thinks he was defeated by the Jewish lobby, and he thinks Americans are deceived by the Jewish lobby.
He couldn't be more wrong.
The truth is there weren't enough Jews in his congressional district to vote him out of office in 1982 even if every single one of them opposed him. And the truth is there aren't enough Jews in this country to generate the broad political support Israel enjoys in every single public opinion survey done over the last 50 years.
Findley was turned out of office not by Jews, but by Christians. And Israel gets most of its political support in the United States not from Jews but from Christians.
Therefore, it's not the Jewish lobby that gets the credit for defeating this clown and for supporting the only free country in the Middle East, it's the Christian lobby.
Why do American Christians support Israel so loyally and enthusiastically?
The strong evangelical church in America can read the Bible and see that the Jews' only historic home is in Israel.
Most Christians understand that Jesus was a Jew who lived in a Jewish state, albeit one under the colonial rule of the Roman Empire.
They understand that God chose to reveal Himself to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel.
They don't see a nation of Palestine mentioned in the Old Testament or New with good reason: It never existed before or since, except in the imaginations of people like Yasser Arafat.
They believe God made certain promises to the nation of Israel and that today's Jewish state is a manifestation of those promises.
They understand that their Holy Scriptures indicate God will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse it. They don't want to be on the wrong side of that spiritual equation.
They understand their own salvation, in the person of Jesus, chose to come through the House of David and minister principally to the Jews.
They grasp that the Jews alone with the help of God, of course have made the deserts bloom in that Holy land, just as the prophets predicted.
They comprehend that the Jews alone formed a free society in the Middle East.
They can see that Israel has been an ally to the United States and a friend to the free world throughout its 50-year history of rebirth.
In other words, Christians can see what people like Findley can't. Anti-Semites like Findley aren't only at war with a few million Jews, they are doing battle with hundreds of millions of Christians. And, more importantly, they are doing battle with the will of God.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30690
The more I research Findley, the less I like him. There doesn't seem to be mainstream discussion about him that I can find, which is curious. This character is controversial, to say the least.
I get a strong sense of anti-semitism from reading his works...
The site also promotes "Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam," a wretched book by professional Israel-basher Paul Findley, a former Republican congressman from Illinois. Findley's book came out in the summer of 2001, which did not prove a propitious moment for a work that gushes over Osama bin Laden. Findley writes, "Outsiders do not seem to recognize that bin Laden is one of the pre-eminent heroes of Afghans, occupying a role similar to the Marquis de Lafayette, a Frenchman who fought at the side of the Colonials during America's Revolutionary War."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/464ijlvz.asp
I get a strong sense of anti-semitism from reading his works...
The site also promotes "Silent No More: Confronting America's False Images of Islam," a wretched book by professional Israel-basher Paul Findley, a former Republican congressman from Illinois. Findley's book came out in the summer of 2001, which did not prove a propitious moment for a work that gushes over Osama bin Laden. Findley writes, "Outsiders do not seem to recognize that bin Laden is one of the pre-eminent heroes of Afghans, occupying a role similar to the Marquis de Lafayette, a Frenchman who fought at the side of the Colonials during America's Revolutionary War."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/464ijlvz.asp
This is fascinating stuff, now that we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Inflections and comments in parenthesis are mine - NT
Speaking Out
Emerson's Jihad in America
by Paul Findley
March 1995, pg. 20
The campaign to defame Islam in America is alive and robust. As I watched Steven Emerson's hour-long production, "Jihad in America," broadcast recently over national television, a sage comment by an eminent Jew came to mind.
The late I.F. "Izzy" Stone, author, lecturer, commentator, historian and for many years publisher of a weekly newsletter, once told me, "Jews never had it so good as they've had it in the United States." But, discussing their concern about Israel's position in the Mideast, he cautioned, "They are afraid about the future. They feel they are at war, and many of them feel they have to fight and keep fighting." He added, "When people are at war it is normal for civil liberties to suffer."
When I interviewed him, although in declining health and with failing eyesight, he was still one of America's most respected journalists, a hero to academics.
"Israel," he said, peering through the thick lenses of his eyeglasses, "is on the wrong course. This period is the blackest in the history of the Jewish people. Arabs need to be dealt with as human beings."
If alive today, Stone would have cited Emerson's television production as wartime propaganda. Because many Israelis see Islam as an enemy, Emerson seems constrained to see Islam as his own enemy.
One of Emerson's techniques is casting the word jihad in the worst possible light. Emerson fails to note that in common Arab usage jihad means struggle, not military onslaught. Literally, jihad means to strive, struggle and exert effort. It is a basic Islamic concept that covers, at one extreme, struggles against evil inclinations within oneself and, at the other, stuggling on the battlefield if absolutely necessary for self-defense. Acts of individual, group or state terrorism are alien to Islam.
Jihad can involve military action only when legitimate states use force to defend the weak, protect society or establish justice. But Emerson presents it only as violent, explosive, indiscriminate carnage. This sets it apart from campaigns familiar to Americans that are entirely nonviolent like "wars" on poverty and illiteracy, a usage much like the use of "jihad" by Muslims.
The film is replete with unsupported scare tactics. At one point Emerson declares that Muslims want to establish an "Islamic empire," but offers no proof whatever. At another he warns that the single, isolated bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City is a certain forerunner of terrible acts of destructive violence nationwide. (Sounds like Emerson was on the mark here)
He puts a false interpretation on a few emotional scenes videotaped at programs to raise funds to finance Muslim struggles in Afghanistan. Without any proof he presents them as sinister, subversive schemes to finance "Islamic terrorism" here "on American soil."
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), based in Washington, DC, concludes: "From beginning to end, 'Jihad in America' and its producer, Steven Emerson, offered nothing but distorted snippets of fiery rhetoric, unsupported allegations and spurious juxtapositions to build a case against the Muslim community in America.
Acts of individual, group or state terrorism are alien to Islam.
"The film was portrayed as factual and educational, while it contained many factual errors. The most obvious error was defining jihad as 'holy war.' We see this documentary as just one aspect of a recent trend toward anti-Islamic 'McCarthyism' by the media. In terms of potential hate crimes, it is now 'open season' on Muslims in America."
Emerson's recurring theme is that big trouble is brewing here because of the "radicalism of Islam" and the clandestine methods he attributes to it. He warns of "Islamic extremists committed to jihad in America." The only evidence he offers to support this forecast, according to CAIR's word-by-word examination of the transcript, consists of sound bites--brief cuttings from filmed coverage of meetings--in which U.S. Muslims were being urged to help finance Islamic struggles, but, contrary to Emerson's portrayal, the struggles were in other parts of the world, not in America.
Emerson deserts the truth in his zeal to misrepresent Islam as a barbaric, underground movement. For example, he leaves the impression that he was able to gain access to secret video tapes of clandestine meetings. In truth, almost all of the videos from which he clipped have been available routinely to the public. They were taken at public, not secret, meetings attended by locally elected mayors and other public officials, including, on one occasion, a representative of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Emerson tries to give Islam an unjustified ugly, gruesome appearance by quoting an Islamic militant as follows: "Allah's religion, may He be praised, must offer skulls, must offer martyrs. Blood must flow. There must be widows, there must be orphans. Hands and limbs must be cut..." This suggests to viewers a dreadful jihad in America. An examination of the entire video makes clear that the speaker, a recruiter for volunteers to help the Afghans, referred only to Afghanistan and the awful price Muslims there have been paying. Had Emerson explained that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, viewers would have avoided the false impression that the Muslim God is different from the Christian God.
In two brief interludes of the program, Emerson said only a few Muslims are terrorists, but this caveat was so fleeting it would register only with viewers who watched intently. These gestures to peace-loving U.S. Muslims were quickly obliterated. At one point Emerson declared, "Our investigation has uncovered more than 30 groups that fund radical Islamic activities and operate under tax-exempt status." (As it turns out, there were quite a few more than that, that were recently shut down & had assets frozen)
By failing to identify the 30 groups, Emerson has put all Muslim charitable organizations under a cloud of suspicion.
No Link to Terrorism
To his credit, a few days after the presentation, Ambassador Philip Wilcox, coordinator of the Office of Counter-Terrrism of the U.S. Department of State, declared: "There is no link between Islam and violence and terrorism. That is a canard which we want to dismiss at the outset. Nor is there a worldwide Islamic network somehow waging jihad against the West. This is a concept that's brooded about sometimes, and there is virtually no intelligence information to suggest that such a network exists." (The Clinton Administration : Working harder every day to suck less.)
In a commentary in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Jack Shaheen, professor emeritus at Southern Illinois University, calls the Emerson program "perilous television, pandering to stereotypes that feed collective hatreds. The program's poisonous images encourage Americans to believe that all Muslims in the United States and their charitable and academic organizations are laundering money for a holy war in the Mideast. As a result...some peace-loving Muslims who genuinely respect the United States will likely be victimized by vicious slurs or hate crimes."
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0395/9503020.htm
Speaking Out
Emerson's Jihad in America
by Paul Findley
March 1995, pg. 20
The campaign to defame Islam in America is alive and robust. As I watched Steven Emerson's hour-long production, "Jihad in America," broadcast recently over national television, a sage comment by an eminent Jew came to mind.
The late I.F. "Izzy" Stone, author, lecturer, commentator, historian and for many years publisher of a weekly newsletter, once told me, "Jews never had it so good as they've had it in the United States." But, discussing their concern about Israel's position in the Mideast, he cautioned, "They are afraid about the future. They feel they are at war, and many of them feel they have to fight and keep fighting." He added, "When people are at war it is normal for civil liberties to suffer."
When I interviewed him, although in declining health and with failing eyesight, he was still one of America's most respected journalists, a hero to academics.
"Israel," he said, peering through the thick lenses of his eyeglasses, "is on the wrong course. This period is the blackest in the history of the Jewish people. Arabs need to be dealt with as human beings."
If alive today, Stone would have cited Emerson's television production as wartime propaganda. Because many Israelis see Islam as an enemy, Emerson seems constrained to see Islam as his own enemy.
One of Emerson's techniques is casting the word jihad in the worst possible light. Emerson fails to note that in common Arab usage jihad means struggle, not military onslaught. Literally, jihad means to strive, struggle and exert effort. It is a basic Islamic concept that covers, at one extreme, struggles against evil inclinations within oneself and, at the other, stuggling on the battlefield if absolutely necessary for self-defense. Acts of individual, group or state terrorism are alien to Islam.
Jihad can involve military action only when legitimate states use force to defend the weak, protect society or establish justice. But Emerson presents it only as violent, explosive, indiscriminate carnage. This sets it apart from campaigns familiar to Americans that are entirely nonviolent like "wars" on poverty and illiteracy, a usage much like the use of "jihad" by Muslims.
The film is replete with unsupported scare tactics. At one point Emerson declares that Muslims want to establish an "Islamic empire," but offers no proof whatever. At another he warns that the single, isolated bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City is a certain forerunner of terrible acts of destructive violence nationwide. (Sounds like Emerson was on the mark here)
He puts a false interpretation on a few emotional scenes videotaped at programs to raise funds to finance Muslim struggles in Afghanistan. Without any proof he presents them as sinister, subversive schemes to finance "Islamic terrorism" here "on American soil."
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), based in Washington, DC, concludes: "From beginning to end, 'Jihad in America' and its producer, Steven Emerson, offered nothing but distorted snippets of fiery rhetoric, unsupported allegations and spurious juxtapositions to build a case against the Muslim community in America.
Acts of individual, group or state terrorism are alien to Islam.
"The film was portrayed as factual and educational, while it contained many factual errors. The most obvious error was defining jihad as 'holy war.' We see this documentary as just one aspect of a recent trend toward anti-Islamic 'McCarthyism' by the media. In terms of potential hate crimes, it is now 'open season' on Muslims in America."
Emerson's recurring theme is that big trouble is brewing here because of the "radicalism of Islam" and the clandestine methods he attributes to it. He warns of "Islamic extremists committed to jihad in America." The only evidence he offers to support this forecast, according to CAIR's word-by-word examination of the transcript, consists of sound bites--brief cuttings from filmed coverage of meetings--in which U.S. Muslims were being urged to help finance Islamic struggles, but, contrary to Emerson's portrayal, the struggles were in other parts of the world, not in America.
Emerson deserts the truth in his zeal to misrepresent Islam as a barbaric, underground movement. For example, he leaves the impression that he was able to gain access to secret video tapes of clandestine meetings. In truth, almost all of the videos from which he clipped have been available routinely to the public. They were taken at public, not secret, meetings attended by locally elected mayors and other public officials, including, on one occasion, a representative of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Emerson tries to give Islam an unjustified ugly, gruesome appearance by quoting an Islamic militant as follows: "Allah's religion, may He be praised, must offer skulls, must offer martyrs. Blood must flow. There must be widows, there must be orphans. Hands and limbs must be cut..." This suggests to viewers a dreadful jihad in America. An examination of the entire video makes clear that the speaker, a recruiter for volunteers to help the Afghans, referred only to Afghanistan and the awful price Muslims there have been paying. Had Emerson explained that Allah is simply the Arabic word for God, viewers would have avoided the false impression that the Muslim God is different from the Christian God.
In two brief interludes of the program, Emerson said only a few Muslims are terrorists, but this caveat was so fleeting it would register only with viewers who watched intently. These gestures to peace-loving U.S. Muslims were quickly obliterated. At one point Emerson declared, "Our investigation has uncovered more than 30 groups that fund radical Islamic activities and operate under tax-exempt status." (As it turns out, there were quite a few more than that, that were recently shut down & had assets frozen)
By failing to identify the 30 groups, Emerson has put all Muslim charitable organizations under a cloud of suspicion.
No Link to Terrorism
To his credit, a few days after the presentation, Ambassador Philip Wilcox, coordinator of the Office of Counter-Terrrism of the U.S. Department of State, declared: "There is no link between Islam and violence and terrorism. That is a canard which we want to dismiss at the outset. Nor is there a worldwide Islamic network somehow waging jihad against the West. This is a concept that's brooded about sometimes, and there is virtually no intelligence information to suggest that such a network exists." (The Clinton Administration : Working harder every day to suck less.)
In a commentary in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Jack Shaheen, professor emeritus at Southern Illinois University, calls the Emerson program "perilous television, pandering to stereotypes that feed collective hatreds. The program's poisonous images encourage Americans to believe that all Muslims in the United States and their charitable and academic organizations are laundering money for a holy war in the Mideast. As a result...some peace-loving Muslims who genuinely respect the United States will likely be victimized by vicious slurs or hate crimes."
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0395/9503020.htm
F
FORD
Guest
Originally posted by conserv_man
Israel needs to KILL AFAFAT TONIGHT. Then they need to launch a massive search and destroy throughout PAL infested areas and keep on doing it until the last terrorist is dead!
Pal's don't deserve to live on the face of the earth, they are uncivilized and need to be taught a lesson. I dont feel a bit sorry for them and all the Liberals that plead their cause. The demonstrate they are nothing but DUNG!
As opposed to great humanitarians like Ariel "the butcher of Shatilla" Sharon, right?
M
mr.conti
Guest
Do you have any doubt that our support of Israel had a lot to do with 9/11?
Do you really believe some people on the other side of the globe suddenly decided to kill us because they hate our way of life? Hehe!
The world, not just crazy Arabs, are against our one sided policy which protects and finances lawless nation of Israel and denies a group of people their right to self determination.
Read this fine body of work:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/roguestate.html
Do you really believe some people on the other side of the globe suddenly decided to kill us because they hate our way of life? Hehe!
The world, not just crazy Arabs, are against our one sided policy which protects and finances lawless nation of Israel and denies a group of people their right to self determination.
Read this fine body of work:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/roguestate.html
ajwps
Active Member
originally posted by Mohammad TRIVILINA68
PLEASE PRAY FOR THE PALESTINE PEOPLE , HOW MUCH MORE SUFFERING AND PAIN THEY HAVE TO SUFFER. IT IS SO SAD TO SEE ALL THE CRIME THAT ISRAEL IS DOING AND THE USA DOES NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. I AM ASKING FOR PRAYERS AND TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. EVERYONE LIES ABOUT THE PROBLEM BETWEEN PALESTINE AND ISRAEL. THEY DONT ADMIT THAT ISRAEL HAS THE TOTAL CONTROL , KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE OF ALL AGES . STOP THE CRIME , USA OPEN YOUR EYES IT IS ABOUT TIME THAT YOU ALL KNOW THE TRUTH , ISRAEL CRIMINALS STOP THE ABUSE. GOD WILL PUNISH YOU.
Mr. Muslim tiivial68, who do you think the Arabs who now call themselves palestinians are and where did they come from.
The so-called palestinians were Arabs who in 1968 began with their new name.
You ask for someone to save these murderers so that they can kill the democratic country of Israel and the Jewish people. The IDF has killed no innocent Arabs as they are all soldiers from utero.
Mr. Muslim you speak of a god that will punish. Your god cannot even get himself out of the Cairo museum where he is housed. The time has come for the Arabs living in the country of Israel to depart if they don't want to be oppressed or subjugated by the current owners of Israel.
As far as a 3 billion yearly foreign aid (loans and grants) are concerned, the USA gets ten times that amount back in dollars and the balance in the form of technology in both military, medicine, advancement in new products that are contracted for by US companies. Like Radio Shack has just signed multimillion dollar contracts with an Israeli company for products to sell in American stores and outlets.
Remember Mr. Muslim, Qur'an says that nothing can happen without the will of your moon-god allah. WHY in the world would you have Americans praying to allah to help the murderous Arab land grabbers who blow up their own children?
B
Batamo
Guest
Perhaps I've misread your comments or taken them out of context. So I'll try to temper my response.
The Israeli's kill people. The Palestinians kill people. They kill equally. Thats simply a fact- both sides have gotten out of control, both sides kill intentionally, and both sides are to blame.
"The IDF has killed no innocent Arabs as they are all soldiers from utero."
Are you kidding me? I know a few Arabs, and none of them are 'soldiers' in any sense of the word. Just like all Jews are not 'soliders'. I suggest you make a genuine effort to meet people inspite of your prejudices, and learn who they really are.
In Israel, a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a bus, killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. In response a government fires missiles into a neighborhood killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. Which is worse?
I agree with Paul Findley's observation that the US is creating enemies and hatred through our foreign policy. It is hard to deny the truth of this. But I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say we caused 9/11. It is the truth is that the US has consistently sided with Israel over the Palestinians (and the other Arab Nations). To put it in context, the Arab nations have invaded or attempted to invade Israel numerous times, and have nearly succeeded in
taking back their holy land. So in many respects Israel is alone in the region.
The reason hatred and enemies are so easily cultivated are complex, but it stems from a poor population, often with little to lose, listening to the eloquent words of a fanatic. The leaders of these terrorist groups are very much like Hitler, preying on fears, relying on predjudices, preaching to the destitute, and promising reward. Its easy to twist and manipulate under such circumstances.
And on the flipside, the Israeli's administer an iron fist against the Palestinian people (most of whom are really only concerned with their small lives). Israel fans the flames of the fanatics by killing and oppressing and belitting and imprisoning and manipulating. They do so partly because they feel backed into a corner, but just as equally out of hatred, predjudice, and anger.
The solution is difficult and I can't say I have it. But I will say this. I would much rather see an administration that doesn't address the issue, and focuses on what it feels are the more important and more fixable foreign policy issues elsewhere, than to see an administration offer a token peace process each term.
And this applies just as much to all the 1st world powers, those in the region, etc.
People don't get disillusioned with peace, they get disillusioned with political moves done under the name peace.
The Israeli's kill people. The Palestinians kill people. They kill equally. Thats simply a fact- both sides have gotten out of control, both sides kill intentionally, and both sides are to blame.
"The IDF has killed no innocent Arabs as they are all soldiers from utero."
Are you kidding me? I know a few Arabs, and none of them are 'soldiers' in any sense of the word. Just like all Jews are not 'soliders'. I suggest you make a genuine effort to meet people inspite of your prejudices, and learn who they really are.
In Israel, a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a bus, killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. In response a government fires missiles into a neighborhood killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. Which is worse?
I agree with Paul Findley's observation that the US is creating enemies and hatred through our foreign policy. It is hard to deny the truth of this. But I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say we caused 9/11. It is the truth is that the US has consistently sided with Israel over the Palestinians (and the other Arab Nations). To put it in context, the Arab nations have invaded or attempted to invade Israel numerous times, and have nearly succeeded in
taking back their holy land. So in many respects Israel is alone in the region.
The reason hatred and enemies are so easily cultivated are complex, but it stems from a poor population, often with little to lose, listening to the eloquent words of a fanatic. The leaders of these terrorist groups are very much like Hitler, preying on fears, relying on predjudices, preaching to the destitute, and promising reward. Its easy to twist and manipulate under such circumstances.
And on the flipside, the Israeli's administer an iron fist against the Palestinian people (most of whom are really only concerned with their small lives). Israel fans the flames of the fanatics by killing and oppressing and belitting and imprisoning and manipulating. They do so partly because they feel backed into a corner, but just as equally out of hatred, predjudice, and anger.
The solution is difficult and I can't say I have it. But I will say this. I would much rather see an administration that doesn't address the issue, and focuses on what it feels are the more important and more fixable foreign policy issues elsewhere, than to see an administration offer a token peace process each term.
And this applies just as much to all the 1st world powers, those in the region, etc.
People don't get disillusioned with peace, they get disillusioned with political moves done under the name peace.
E
eric
Guest
Batamo, it is no use this guy is over the edge and filled with so much hate it is just useless.
ajwps
Active Member
Originally posted by BatGuano:
Perhaps I've misread your comments or taken them out of context. So I'll try to temper my response.
Do you understand that nothing is taken out of context and that you have not tempered anything including your response?
The Israeli's (sic) kill people. The Palestinians kill people. They kill equally. Thats simply a fact- both sides have gotten out of control, both sides kill intentionally, and both sides are to blame.
So by your superior reasoning the Britons killed people and the Nazis killed people so both sides got out of control and both sides killed intentionally. So Britain was as responsible for Hitler in the WW2 and both were to blame.
In Chunking, the Japanese raped and murdered the Chinese in WW2 but did not kill the Japanese so the Chinese did not get out of control and were not to blame. Israelis and not their land have suicide bombers kill their children and shoot innocent people driving to work while the Israeli army targets only murderers. The Arabs hide behind their family so some family members get killed but no with intention.
Can you use the right side of your brain?
"The IDF has killed no innocent Arabs as they are all soldiers from utero."
Are you kidding me? I know a few Arabs, and none of them are 'soldiers' in any sense of the word. Just like all Jews are not 'soldiers'. I suggest you make a genuine effort to meet people in spite of your prejudices, and learn who they really are.
I lived in Israel for several years and been waited on by many Mohammads and Jabrils. I met many Arabs (Christian and Muslim) living and working in the democratic Jewish State of Israel. To a man and woman and child, they all either carry bombs, guns or hate for their hosts. I suggest that you learn that the religion of Islam is a guide to the death of infidels and even their own rival Islamic brothers. Believe me, the people of Islam are exactly nothing more or less than believers in a religion of DEATH.
"In Israel, a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a bus, killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. In response a government fires missiles into a neighborhood killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. Which is worse?"
In Israel, Muslim children, women or boys (very few over 35 years of age become suicidal killers or shoot at people sitting in a restaurant or praying in a synagogue. The Arabs are now killing Muslim and unbelievers alike around the world with total indifference to human life.
Israel fires missiles from Blackhawk helicopters targeting the leaders and planners of the young suicide bombers and killers. Israel DOES NOT TARGET NON-COMBATANTS INTENTIONALLY. One tank commander refused to shoot a murderer running away because he was afraid of killing those Arabs he was hiding behind. Can't you tell the difference? You seem to believe the Arab propaganda used to distort reality.
"I agree with Paul Findley's observation that the US is creating enemies and hatred through our foreign policy. It is hard to deny the truth of this."
Did the USA create enemies by attacking the Japanese or Germans who attacked first? Did Israel create Arab enemies and hatred by holding on to their 4000 year old land and defending themselves in 5 successful wars with a few thousand Jews against millions of Arabs and their armies? Maybe the US should avoid creating enemies by rolling over and playing dead after a cowardly sneak attack against New York and Washington. Maybe you should think instead of spouting propaganda.... Maybe the god allah is not helping the Muslims with his will.
" But I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say we caused 9/11."
Why would you say that 'you' didn't cause 9/11. Didn't George Bush dare Ossama to attack us while the Jews sat with their popcorn a safe distance away and watch the fireworks/
"It is the truth is that the US has consistently sided with Israel over the Palestinians (and the other Arab Nations). To put it in context, the Arab nations have invaded or attempted to invade Israel numerous times, and have nearly succeeded in
taking back their holy land. So in many respects Israel is alone in the region."
You have got to be working on a single neuron in that microcephalic head. You speak with such authority about the US consistently siding with Israel when in fact the US State Department and George Bush have kept Priminster Sharon from doing exactly what every other Arab country has done with their Arab so-called palestinians. Israel should have transferred them to another empty large Arab country years ago instead of the even handed US policy being forced on Israel. How long would President Bush tolerate an attack by the Mexican people to take back their original southwest part of the USA? I guess about 20 second before he sent in the army and national guard to wipe them out. Don't you think so too?
Exactly when was Israel ever an Arab holy land. Many would like to know exactly when and how this occurred. As you say, Israel is a lone democracy in a sea of dictatorships and murderous believers of Islam. For millennia, civilizations have tried to destroy and remove the Jewish people from Israel. But most have now gone the way of the sands. They no longer exist while Israel and the Jewish people remain. How can that happen?
"The reason hatred and enemies are so easily cultivated are complex, but it stems from a poor population, often with little to lose, listening to the eloquent words of a fanatic. The leaders of these terrorist groups are very much like Hitler, preying on fears, relying on prejudices, preaching to the destitute, and promising reward. Its easy to twist and manipulate under such circumstances."
Yes that is something true but you forgot that the billions meant to build, feed and govern themselves has been put in the bank accounts of Arafat and his close associates. Keeping the Arabs poor, hungry and illiterate with no so eloquent words of hatred breed the fanaticism and murderous attacks on the independent country of Israel.
"And on the flipside, the Israeli's administer an iron fist against the Palestinian people (most of whom are really only concerned with their small lives)."
Really a flipside. Israel has the weapons because it is their own country and the Arabs are occupiers of the Jewish land. The so-called palestinian people are mostly concerned with sending their kids as a sacrifice for allah. They sing, dance and hand out candy when their children die in the fires of allah. If they were truly concerned with their small lives, they would rise up against their PLO leaders. Then they could live in Israel as freemen, with jobs, lives and the ability to raise their heads as human beings. But they are kept in blind ignorance and fed hatred for those who have always been their benefactors. Until the Intifada of the PLO.
"Israel fans the flames of the fanatics by killing and oppressing and belittling and imprisoning and manipulating. They do so partly because they feel backed into a corner, but just as equally out of hatred, prejudice, and anger."
The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace but the Arabs have maintained hatred, prejudice and anger as spoon fed to them by their handlers and the Arab countries who benefit from the palestinian Arabs in a state of war against their host country. Israel will one day wake up and help the Arabs to obtain a real country of their own but not in the holiest site of the Jewish people. The Arabs bow down toward Mecca with the butts facing the Jewish temple mount. This is their supposedly third site. Maybe Israel should take Mecca for a possession and see how the Arabs like it.
"The solution is difficult and I can't say I have it. But I will say this. I would much rather see an administration that doesn't address the issue, and focuses on what it feels are the more important and more fixable foreign policy issues elsewhere, than to see an administration offer a token peace process each term. "
You are partially right. The US should leave Israel, an independent democratic country, to solve its own problems without interference from the even handed US State Department and Bush. Israel would offer the Arabs no token peace but a real peace outside of Israel. You may ask where. It really doesn't matter as long as they leave the land of the Jewish people.
"And this applies just as much too all the 1st world powers, those in the region, etc. People don't get disillusioned with peace, they get disillusioned with political moves done under the name peace."
Whatever your last statement means is hard to understand? The Arabs talk in English to the west about peace but in Arabic they preach hate and death to the infidels (unbelievers of the earth.
You speak of things which you haven't the slightest idea or concept of the reality on the ground. The reality that Israel is the owner of all Israel and the Arabs live in the occupied territories of the Jewish people for which they really do not have any desire to possess. The Arabs have stated loud and clear to everyone that will listen. We don't want Israel for our country, we want the death of the Jewish people. As long as the Jewish people remain alive, they know that their god allah is nothing more than a stone idol moon god.
Perhaps I've misread your comments or taken them out of context. So I'll try to temper my response.
Do you understand that nothing is taken out of context and that you have not tempered anything including your response?
The Israeli's (sic) kill people. The Palestinians kill people. They kill equally. Thats simply a fact- both sides have gotten out of control, both sides kill intentionally, and both sides are to blame.
So by your superior reasoning the Britons killed people and the Nazis killed people so both sides got out of control and both sides killed intentionally. So Britain was as responsible for Hitler in the WW2 and both were to blame.
In Chunking, the Japanese raped and murdered the Chinese in WW2 but did not kill the Japanese so the Chinese did not get out of control and were not to blame. Israelis and not their land have suicide bombers kill their children and shoot innocent people driving to work while the Israeli army targets only murderers. The Arabs hide behind their family so some family members get killed but no with intention.
Can you use the right side of your brain?
"The IDF has killed no innocent Arabs as they are all soldiers from utero."
Are you kidding me? I know a few Arabs, and none of them are 'soldiers' in any sense of the word. Just like all Jews are not 'soldiers'. I suggest you make a genuine effort to meet people in spite of your prejudices, and learn who they really are.
I lived in Israel for several years and been waited on by many Mohammads and Jabrils. I met many Arabs (Christian and Muslim) living and working in the democratic Jewish State of Israel. To a man and woman and child, they all either carry bombs, guns or hate for their hosts. I suggest that you learn that the religion of Islam is a guide to the death of infidels and even their own rival Islamic brothers. Believe me, the people of Islam are exactly nothing more or less than believers in a religion of DEATH.
"In Israel, a man straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a bus, killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. In response a government fires missiles into a neighborhood killing and wounding dozens of non-combatants. Which is worse?"
In Israel, Muslim children, women or boys (very few over 35 years of age become suicidal killers or shoot at people sitting in a restaurant or praying in a synagogue. The Arabs are now killing Muslim and unbelievers alike around the world with total indifference to human life.
Israel fires missiles from Blackhawk helicopters targeting the leaders and planners of the young suicide bombers and killers. Israel DOES NOT TARGET NON-COMBATANTS INTENTIONALLY. One tank commander refused to shoot a murderer running away because he was afraid of killing those Arabs he was hiding behind. Can't you tell the difference? You seem to believe the Arab propaganda used to distort reality.
"I agree with Paul Findley's observation that the US is creating enemies and hatred through our foreign policy. It is hard to deny the truth of this."
Did the USA create enemies by attacking the Japanese or Germans who attacked first? Did Israel create Arab enemies and hatred by holding on to their 4000 year old land and defending themselves in 5 successful wars with a few thousand Jews against millions of Arabs and their armies? Maybe the US should avoid creating enemies by rolling over and playing dead after a cowardly sneak attack against New York and Washington. Maybe you should think instead of spouting propaganda.... Maybe the god allah is not helping the Muslims with his will.
" But I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say we caused 9/11."
Why would you say that 'you' didn't cause 9/11. Didn't George Bush dare Ossama to attack us while the Jews sat with their popcorn a safe distance away and watch the fireworks/
"It is the truth is that the US has consistently sided with Israel over the Palestinians (and the other Arab Nations). To put it in context, the Arab nations have invaded or attempted to invade Israel numerous times, and have nearly succeeded in
taking back their holy land. So in many respects Israel is alone in the region."
You have got to be working on a single neuron in that microcephalic head. You speak with such authority about the US consistently siding with Israel when in fact the US State Department and George Bush have kept Priminster Sharon from doing exactly what every other Arab country has done with their Arab so-called palestinians. Israel should have transferred them to another empty large Arab country years ago instead of the even handed US policy being forced on Israel. How long would President Bush tolerate an attack by the Mexican people to take back their original southwest part of the USA? I guess about 20 second before he sent in the army and national guard to wipe them out. Don't you think so too?
Exactly when was Israel ever an Arab holy land. Many would like to know exactly when and how this occurred. As you say, Israel is a lone democracy in a sea of dictatorships and murderous believers of Islam. For millennia, civilizations have tried to destroy and remove the Jewish people from Israel. But most have now gone the way of the sands. They no longer exist while Israel and the Jewish people remain. How can that happen?
"The reason hatred and enemies are so easily cultivated are complex, but it stems from a poor population, often with little to lose, listening to the eloquent words of a fanatic. The leaders of these terrorist groups are very much like Hitler, preying on fears, relying on prejudices, preaching to the destitute, and promising reward. Its easy to twist and manipulate under such circumstances."
Yes that is something true but you forgot that the billions meant to build, feed and govern themselves has been put in the bank accounts of Arafat and his close associates. Keeping the Arabs poor, hungry and illiterate with no so eloquent words of hatred breed the fanaticism and murderous attacks on the independent country of Israel.
"And on the flipside, the Israeli's administer an iron fist against the Palestinian people (most of whom are really only concerned with their small lives)."
Really a flipside. Israel has the weapons because it is their own country and the Arabs are occupiers of the Jewish land. The so-called palestinian people are mostly concerned with sending their kids as a sacrifice for allah. They sing, dance and hand out candy when their children die in the fires of allah. If they were truly concerned with their small lives, they would rise up against their PLO leaders. Then they could live in Israel as freemen, with jobs, lives and the ability to raise their heads as human beings. But they are kept in blind ignorance and fed hatred for those who have always been their benefactors. Until the Intifada of the PLO.
"Israel fans the flames of the fanatics by killing and oppressing and belittling and imprisoning and manipulating. They do so partly because they feel backed into a corner, but just as equally out of hatred, prejudice, and anger."
The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace but the Arabs have maintained hatred, prejudice and anger as spoon fed to them by their handlers and the Arab countries who benefit from the palestinian Arabs in a state of war against their host country. Israel will one day wake up and help the Arabs to obtain a real country of their own but not in the holiest site of the Jewish people. The Arabs bow down toward Mecca with the butts facing the Jewish temple mount. This is their supposedly third site. Maybe Israel should take Mecca for a possession and see how the Arabs like it.
"The solution is difficult and I can't say I have it. But I will say this. I would much rather see an administration that doesn't address the issue, and focuses on what it feels are the more important and more fixable foreign policy issues elsewhere, than to see an administration offer a token peace process each term. "
You are partially right. The US should leave Israel, an independent democratic country, to solve its own problems without interference from the even handed US State Department and Bush. Israel would offer the Arabs no token peace but a real peace outside of Israel. You may ask where. It really doesn't matter as long as they leave the land of the Jewish people.
"And this applies just as much too all the 1st world powers, those in the region, etc. People don't get disillusioned with peace, they get disillusioned with political moves done under the name peace."
Whatever your last statement means is hard to understand? The Arabs talk in English to the west about peace but in Arabic they preach hate and death to the infidels (unbelievers of the earth.
You speak of things which you haven't the slightest idea or concept of the reality on the ground. The reality that Israel is the owner of all Israel and the Arabs live in the occupied territories of the Jewish people for which they really do not have any desire to possess. The Arabs have stated loud and clear to everyone that will listen. We don't want Israel for our country, we want the death of the Jewish people. As long as the Jewish people remain alive, they know that their god allah is nothing more than a stone idol moon god.
B
Batamo
Guest
first off, the ancestors of the Jews and the Arabs have lived and co-existed in what is now Israel for a very long time. You cannot say who was there first, because frankly I don't think it is even known.
As for Israel's superior military, I'd just ask you who you think gave it to them? There is a reason they were able to repell all the Arab attacks, and it isn't solely on the military technology the US has provided. Had the US not come in to help with armed forces, there would be no Jewish state.
I'd also like to distinguish the Palestinians from the rest of the Arab world. Because lets face it, you don't see any of the local Arab nations offering to house or provide land for a free Palestine. They view the Palestinians as barely above the Jews. The Arab solidarity against Israel is political, and little else. Afterall, did you hear any outcries when Muslims were being slaughtered in the former Yugoslavia? No you didn't.
"The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace..."
Do you seriously stand by this statement? Everyone has hated, its human nature. And the efforts that the Israeli's have put forth toward granting freedom to the Palestinians are very often nothing more than words, much like the 'token peace process' I mentioned in my previous post. Under Barak there was a close and I feel genuine effort at peace. But who undermined it? The Jews, by voting him out.
The coin has two sides
As for Israel's superior military, I'd just ask you who you think gave it to them? There is a reason they were able to repell all the Arab attacks, and it isn't solely on the military technology the US has provided. Had the US not come in to help with armed forces, there would be no Jewish state.
I'd also like to distinguish the Palestinians from the rest of the Arab world. Because lets face it, you don't see any of the local Arab nations offering to house or provide land for a free Palestine. They view the Palestinians as barely above the Jews. The Arab solidarity against Israel is political, and little else. Afterall, did you hear any outcries when Muslims were being slaughtered in the former Yugoslavia? No you didn't.
"The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace..."
Do you seriously stand by this statement? Everyone has hated, its human nature. And the efforts that the Israeli's have put forth toward granting freedom to the Palestinians are very often nothing more than words, much like the 'token peace process' I mentioned in my previous post. Under Barak there was a close and I feel genuine effort at peace. But who undermined it? The Jews, by voting him out.
The coin has two sides
ajwps
Active Member
BatGuano posts
"irst off, the ancestors of the Jews and the Arabs have lived and co-existed in what is now Israel for a very long time. You cannot say who was there first, because frankly I don't think it is even known."
"As for Israel's superior military, I'd just ask you who you think gave it to them?"
"There is a reason they were able to repel all the Arab attacks, and it isn't solely on the military technology the US has provided. Had the US not come in to help with armed forces, there would be no Jewish state."
"I'd also like to distinguish the Palestinians from the rest of the Arab world. Because lets face it, you don't see any of the local Arab nations offering to house or provide land for a free Palestine. They view the Palestinians as barely above the Jews."
"The Arab solidarity against Israel is political, and little else."
http://www.iris.org.il/images/arabwld3.gif
"After all, did you hear any outcries when Muslims were being slaughtered in the former Yugoslavia? No you didn't."
"The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace..."
"Do you seriously stand by this statement? Everyone has hated, its human nature."
"And the efforts that the Israeli's have put forth toward granting freedom to the Palestinians are very often nothing more than words, much like the 'token peace process'
"I mentioned in my previous post. Under Barak there was a close and I feel genuine effort at peace. But who undermined it? The Jews, by voting him out."
"The coin has two sides"
"irst off, the ancestors of the Jews and the Arabs have lived and co-existed in what is now Israel for a very long time. You cannot say who was there first, because frankly I don't think it is even known."
What you don't know would fill a library of books. The Arabs did co-exist in Israel as free men and women, had good jobs, prayed in their mosques and enjoyed the western civilization of Israel's democracy. But then the PLO and their Intifada came against those who treated them as equals.
As for who was there first, the answer lies in both archeology and in the 2000 year old Dead Sea Scrolls. The Hebrews entered the land of Cannan and displaced the small kingdoms present in the land because of their evil. The Canannites, Jebuzites, etc no longer exist simply because their religions, like the Muslims of today, prayed to stone gods and threw their children into the fires of the god Molach. The Arab nomadic tribes wandered in and out of the land of Israel for centuries but never had a country with an established government, a constitution, public services or anything that would make a country. This land was a protectorate of many foreign powers for periods of time but eventually the indigenous population of Jews formed a stable government and a western type civilization that was also recognized by the United Nations in 1948 by a majority vote.
The fact that Israel is owned by the Jewish people right now is the equivalent of the United States owned by the population of free Americans. The land belonged to the Indian peoples but unlike Israel was taken from them. Would you say the American Indian people should retake their USA land by a guerilla war?
"As for Israel's superior military, I'd just ask you who you think gave it to them?"
Initially Israel purchased their first weapons from Czechoslovakia then from France and now they buy American weaponry that they modify to make the most potent in the world. Actually nobody gave Israel anything as Israel alone has paid for everything they have used to protect their land from the Muslim and foreign invaders. Israel had made itself one of the most military superior powers in the world. The same cannot be said for the Arab countries for they rely on technology produced by western societies including Israel.
"There is a reason they were able to repel all the Arab attacks, and it isn't solely on the military technology the US has provided. Had the US not come in to help with armed forces, there would be no Jewish state."
Uh, pardon me, when exactly did the US come to help Israel with armed United States military forces? Any date or facts would be greatly appreciated. You are right, it wasn't solely the military technology the US sold to Israel but the Israeli modifications they made to the weapons systems and most of all the only soldiers who fought and died were the Israeli people and their IDF. But without Israel's main Ally, (not the USA), Israel would have long ago vanished from the earth by constant attacks from foreign powers whose only goal was to destroy Israel and the Jewish people. Your desire to see an end to Israel will meet the same end of all the rest of the old and new civilizations that have done just that. Simply there is no chance in this galaxy.
"I'd also like to distinguish the Palestinians from the rest of the Arab world. Because lets face it, you don't see any of the local Arab nations offering to house or provide land for a free Palestine. They view the Palestinians as barely above the Jews."
How very nice of the Arab nations seeing the Arabs of Israel as sub-human beings like they see the Jews. Israel has taken in all the expelled Jews from the Arab lands and incorporated them into the modern state of Israel while not one Arab country has taken the Israel occupiers into their countries but to the contrary expelled them from each and every one of the surrounding Arab countries.
"The Arab solidarity against Israel is political, and little else."
What are you saying? The Arab solidarity has little to do with politics. Israel is a sliver of land along the Mediterranean Sea.
Take a little look at the map below. Tell me if you see any political motivation for the destruction of the Jewish people and their land mass the size of Rhode Island?
http://www.iris.org.il/images/arabwld3.gif
"After all, did you hear any outcries when Muslims were being slaughtered in the former Yugoslavia? No you didn't."
No outcries when Muslims blow up Turkey's hotels and kill Muslims, when they kill the Hindus of India, or attacking their own neighbors or hanging their brother Muslims upside down and shooting them dead and mutilating their bodies. Not one word is said when the Arabs in Israel bomb restaurants or kill Israelis in the streets but bruise a Muslim murderer and Europe screams oppression.
"The Jews have never hated anyone including the Arabs. Israel has tried so many times to give away their own land to make peace..."
"Do you seriously stand by this statement? Everyone has hated, its human nature."
Yes most individuals are capable of hate but we are speaking about the nation of Israel and not individuals.
"And the efforts that the Israeli's have put forth toward granting freedom to the Palestinians are very often nothing more than words, much like the 'token peace process'
Do you mean the same OSLO peace process that Arafat turned down which would have granted him 99% of everything he wanted? Do you mean the Israel land that Israel is ready to give away in exchange for a right to live on the earth? Do you know the meaning of the word token?
"I mentioned in my previous post. Under Barak there was a close and I feel genuine effort at peace. But who undermined it? The Jews, by voting him out."
What the devil are you saying? Barak offered the Israel's west Bank and Gaza, the Arabs turned it down flat and the Israeli and Arab citizens of Israel voted him out because his attempt at capitulation failed miserably.
"The coin has two sides"
Yes and both sides of the coin are tails!
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