Israel / Palestine Peace Plan

[Coyote]

The situation you described in Haiti reminded me of the banning of two israeli arab political parties on the grounds they "questioned the jewish character of the state of Israel".

The decision was later overturned by Israel's Supreme Court but only because palestinian political parties do not represent any serious threat to the "jewish character" of Israel.

How many Arab and Muslim countries have Jewish political parties or even have Jews in their governments? Where can we find you protesting that situation, dummy?

Yet another senseless point: because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".

 

[Marc39]

Yet another senseless point: because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".

"They" are far worse, so, get your ass in gear and start fighting for reform in the backward, fascist and racist Arab Muslim shithole countries.

 

[Coyote]

Originally Posted by P F Tinmore
Sometimes what may look like a democracy is a dictatorship. If we look at Haiti, for example, we will see a country whose president was taken out of his country on a US plane at the point of a gun. Then they had an "election" for the people to vote in a new leader.

OK, so they are going to democratically elect a new leader. The problem is that the president's party, Lavalas, that would win hands down was banned from running by our interim government. Could you call that a democracy?

The real problem, Tinmore, is that people are totally obsessed with "elections" to the point of equating them with democracy itself instead of an element of that political system.

I totally agree. Elections are the END result of a democratic system. In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place. You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation, the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations. If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.

This leads to absurd conclusions like the ones we are seeing here:

South Africa and Israel, whose elections excluded more than 70% and 50% of all the people legitimately entitled to be South African and Israeli citizens can be called democratic states.

They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".

States that herd its undesirable population in ethnic enclaves denying them any kind of political participation suddenly become beacons of democracy when you accept the formula PERIODIC ELECTIONS = DEMOCRACY.

These are some of the insane conclusions you innevitably arrive at when you equate the entire democratic state with the holding of periodic elections.

The truth of the matter is that Israel lack one of the fundamental elements of the democratic state, equality before the law, without which truly democratic political representation cannot exist regardless of any electoral process.

While that is definately the ideal- democracy does not have to have that to be a democratic form of government.

 

[Coyote]

Yet another senseless point: because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".

"They" are far worse, so, get your ass in gear and start fighting for reform in the backward, fascist and racist Arab Muslim shithole countries.

Ok. Let's see....

State A: Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B: is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.

 

[Marc39]

State A: Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B: is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.

The internet chat room dummy is clueless that Israel has no legal or moral obligations
vis-s-vis his inane comment about "disenfranchised, stateless non-citizens under its control". The dummy thinks he's impressing others by weighing in on the Middle East, but, the dummy really has no idea what the fuck he's even talking about.

Dummy, maybe, you ought to post elsewhere about other topics, such as knitting or girl's volleyball.

 

[Coyote]

State A: Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B: is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.

The internet chat room dummy is clueless that Israel has no legal or moral obligations
vis-s-vis his inane comment about "disenfranchised, stateless non-citizens under its control". The dummy thinks he's impressing others by weighing in on the Middle East, but, the dummy really has no idea what the fuck he's even talking about.

Dummy, maybe, you ought to post elsewhere about other topics, such as knitting or girl's volleyball.

Yes. You really ought to.

Lets recap a bit shall we?

Marc makes claims.
Marc refuses to back up claims with facts or sources.
Marc obfuscates when confronted by his deficiencies.
Marc resorts to ad hominum arguments.

Conclusion: Marc is dummy.

 

[The Rabbi]

Jeezus are you stupid and/or ignorant.

You tell me how an Amharic speaking Ethiopian, an Arabic speaking Iraqi, a Russian speaking member of the FSU, an English speaking American, and a Hebrew speaking Israeli all share the same ethnicity.

Your inability to read even a rudimentary definition is astounding considering I set the bar for you very low to begin with.

What part of...

An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2] This shared heritage may be based upon putative common ancestry, history, kinship, religion, language, shared territory, nationality or physical appearance. Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness


do you not understand?

I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other. So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group. Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group. Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
What a fucking loser.

 

[CMike]

Yet another senseless point: because "they" are worse, that means it's ok for us to be "almost as bad".

"They" are far worse, so, get your ass in gear and start fighting for reform in the backward, fascist and racist Arab Muslim shithole countries.

Ok. Let's see....

State A: Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B: is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.

State B doesn't exist.

The so called disenfranchised people

1) don't accept Israel's right to exist

2) refuse to even go to the negotiating table

3) try to blow up as many Israeli civilians as possible.

They are entitled to nothing.

 

[Marc39]

State A: Has a claims to have a Western style democracy, recieves beaucoup aid from us, has millions of disenfranchised stateless non-citizens under it's control; has an unequal system of land distribution and expansion and immigration for it's Arab and Jewish citizens, unequal schooling for it's Arab and Jewish citizens....

State B: is worse so that magically means State A is just fine and we should ignore anything they do.

Surely that means that the pedophile who raped his daughter should be ignored becuase, after all he didn't kill her so spend your time and energy tracking down real killers.

The internet chat room dummy is clueless that Israel has no legal or moral obligations
vis-s-vis his inane comment about "disenfranchised, stateless non-citizens under its control". The dummy thinks he's impressing others by weighing in on the Middle East, but, the dummy really has no idea what the fuck he's even talking about.

Dummy, maybe, you ought to post elsewhere about other topics, such as knitting or girl's volleyball.

Yes. You really ought to.

Lets recap a bit shall we?

Marc makes claims.
Marc refuses to back up claims with facts or sources.
Marc obfuscates when confronted by his deficiencies.
Marc resorts to ad hominum arguments.

Conclusion: Marc is dummy.

Sucks to have me burst your little bubble here trying to fake knowing what you're talking about.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Coyote
I totally agree. Elections are the END result of a democratic system. In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place. You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation, the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations. If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.

They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".

While that is definately the ideal- democracy does not have to have that to be a democratic form of government.

Ok then Coyote....

It seems to me our debate on what kind of state Israel should be included is for the most part a debate about names.

The "meat" of this whole issue is the fact that in South Africa and Israel we had/have millions of individuals elligible to become citizens of those states who are kept as politically disenfranchised as any citizen of North Korea by authoritarian legislation approved by the Israeli legislative branch, uphold by the Judiciary and enforced by the Executive through brute force.

Since we both agree on these "hard facts" I think we should all be free to call Israel whatever we want to call it.

Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )

 

[José]

And now the much-missed Bee Gees younger brother jumps into the debate to tell us we shouldn't worry too much about how to properly label Israel.

 

[José]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J7LkZDE6tI]YouTube - Andy Gibb - Words[/ame]

(IT'S ONLY) WORDS​

Smile an everlasting smile
a smile can bring you near to me
Don't ever let me find you gone
cause that would bring a tear to me
And This world has lost its glory
let's start a brand new story now, my love
Cuz right now, there'll be no other time
And I can show you how, MY LOVE

Talk in everlasting words
and dedicate them all to me
And I will give you all my life
I'm here if you should call to me
You think that I don't even mean
a single word I say

It's only words
and words are all I have
to take your heart away

I want you to sing with me, come on

da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da
da da da da da da da da da da

You think that I don't even mean
a single word I say

It's only words
and words are all I have
to take your heart away

It's only words
and words are all I have
to take your heart

It's only words
and words are all I have
to take your heart away

 

[Marc39]

Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )

You're another big dummy. All Israeli citizens are accorded equal rights that are constitutionally guaranteed.

Israel's penal code has stringent anti-racism and anti-discrimination laws that assure anyone with a grievance the right to petiition the government.

Israel is as strong a democracy as the US.

And, you're a weak ass.

 

[Coyote]

I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other. So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group. Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group. Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
What a fucking loser.

Because you are incapable of discerning who is and is not a mental midget based on your own limitations.

I did not make the definition. Here is another:

Oxford English Dictionary
Ethnic
a[djective]

...
2.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]

...
3 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
—Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

Unlike Lutherans, Jews also defined themselves through matrilineal heritage. Unlike your condo association members - Jews do share a distinctive culture, religion and even language.

You can't have it both ways - you can't define yourself as an ethnic group for the purposes of minority protections against discrimmination on the one hand yet claim not be an ethnic group for the purposes of denying those same protections to another group by trying to claim they are all the same.

It amazes me the lengths you will go to defend a system that is inherently wrong.

 

[Coyote]

Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )

You're another big dummy. All Israeli citizens are accorded equal rights that are constitutionally guaranteed.

Wrong.

On NPR's All Things Considered, William Quandt (U. VA) said:

Israel was established as a state for Jews. It has of course an Arab minority who have citizenship rights, but the specific way in which land is owned in Israel is predominantly that the Jewish Agency purchases land on behalf of the Jewish people and then leases it out to its Jewish citizens.

Arabs cannot have access to that land that's owned by the Jewish Agency. They can keep land they have privately owned before the State of Israel was created. There's a small amount of private property that can be traded and Arabs can buy that as well as Jews, but most land is held in trust for the Jewish people, so yes there is a legal basis for what we would flat out call discriminatory practices.


Knesset rejects bill for equal Arab-Jewish land distribution
Tibi's proposal was intended to counter a bill passed two weeks ago which states that reception committees of Israeli communities can decide who will reside in their towns. One consequence of that bill is that Israeli Arabs would not be able to live in those towns if the reception committees decide so.

Israel's penal code has stringent anti-racism and anti-discrimination laws that assure anyone with a grievance the right to petiition the government.

Does it? Is it enforced or enforceable? If it is then why isn't it?

Palestine - Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture
The Israeli Declaration of Independence states that “the State of Israel ... will maintain full equality of political rights for all its citizens without distinction to religion, race and sex, will ensure freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.” And yet, fifty years later, this remains a dream unfulfilled; in many perspectives, we have not stood by this mandate. To this day, Israel has neither a written constitution nor a bill of rights to protect human rights and the right to equality. The Knesset, the Israeli Parliament, passed two laws in 1992, known as the Basic Laws, “Human Dignity and Liberty,” and “Freedom of Vocation,” which effectively have constitutional force. And yet, even as many consider these Basic Laws to be revolutionary, they do not yet protect all fundamental rights.

This rather surprised me - it was written in 1999, perhaps it has changed in 10 years but I can't find any confirmation of that. According to this article discrimmination and inequality in the government's allocation of resources are a serious problem, along with equal access to land and the ability to expand.

Israel is as strong a democracy as the US.

And, you're a weak ass.

At the very least, in the U.S. - any U.S. citizen has the same right to live in any community, attend any school, buy any land as any other U.S. citizen.

I don't expect much in the way of a coherent reply, much less any real debate from you, but what the hell. It's worth a try.

 

[Coyote]

Originally posted by Coyote
I totally agree. Elections are the END result of a democratic system. In order for democracy (as we desire it) to work you have certain institutions in place. You have to have a certain educational level among enough of the population, an independent judiciary, a way to control corruption, violence and intimidation, the ability to hold the government accountable, a free press and a constitution that protects the rights of minority populations. If you don't have that voting alone is meaningless.

They are still democratic - democracy doesn't have to have to recognize all inhabitants as "citizens".

While that is definately the ideal- democracy does not have to have that to be a democratic form of government.

Ok then Coyote....

It seems to me our debate on what kind of state Israel should be included is for the most part a debate about names.

Names (and words) have meaning - sometimes they are charged with particularly strong connotations. I think we need to respect that. Dictatorship is one such word that has a very specific meaning and it doesn't fit. Dictatorship describes Mugabe's Zimbabwe or Hitler's Germany at one point. It described Iraq under Saddam. A dictatorship has no democratic principles - it's autocratic. Using it lightly is like those who lightly use references to Hitler or accusations of racism to describe situations which bear little resemblence to historical reality. I think it makes people disregard whatever point you are trying to make and you do make good points about ethnocracy. That's my issue with it.

The "meat" of this whole issue is the fact that in South Africa and Israel we had/have millions of individuals elligible to become citizens of those states who are kept as politically disenfranchised as any citizen of North Korea by authoritarian legislation approved by the Israeli legislative branch, uphold by the Judiciary and enforced by the Executive through brute force.

Agreed but not with the comparison to NK. Isreal is at a crucial point. It can't keep making claims to be the only real democracy (democracy in the way the West understands it to be) in the Middle East and still keep control of the occupied territories (and it does have de-facto control) which keeps millions of people without rights or citizenship or self-determination. That is the similarity I see with Apartheid. Now, there are a lot of semantical games concerning the status of the Palestinians and a lot of "blame the victim" mentality (and there is a share of blame due the Palestinians) but that doesn't erase the core reality: millions of people, under foreign control, without rights or citizenship or self-determination. It's a situation that can't continue to exist indefinately.

Since we both agree on these "hard facts" I think we should all be free to call Israel whatever we want to call it.

Whether we prefer to call it a "flawed" democracy, an ethnocracy or a jewish racial dictatorship is just a matter of denomination, a matter of labels, not substance. : )

No....words have meaning

 

[The Rabbi]

I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other. So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group. Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group. Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
What a fucking loser.

Because you are incapable of discerning who is and is not a mental midget based on your own limitations.

I did not make the definition. Here is another:

Oxford English Dictionary
Ethnic
a[djective]

...
2.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]

...
3 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
—Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

Unlike Lutherans, Jews also defined themselves through matrilineal heritage. Unlike your condo association members - Jews do share a distinctive culture, religion and even language.

You can't have it both ways - you can't define yourself as an ethnic group for the purposes of minority protections against discrimmination on the one hand yet claim not be an ethnic group for the purposes of denying those same protections to another group by trying to claim they are all the same.

It amazes me the lengths you will go to defend a system that is inherently wrong.

Wow what an ignoramus you are. But we knew that already.
It doesn't matter whether you wrote the definition or not. You are the one quoting it to bolster your case. You are responsible for it. And it fails.
Israelis do not define themselves through matrilineal descent. The Law of Return allows anyone with a Jewish grandparent to become a citizen. That isn't Judaism. And I already pointed out that Ethiopian Israelis, Yemenite Israelis, American Israelis and FSU Israelis hardly share the same language, customs, foods or any other marker of an ethnic group.
The system (whatever that means) is not inherently wrong. It is only wrong to morons like you who want to see every conflict as a replay of some other conflict they may or may not understand.

 

[Coyote]

I dont understand why I continue to respond to an obvious mental midget.
When you make a definition that broad you include virtually everybody in some kind of "ethnic" group or other. So on that basis, Lutherans constitute an ethnic group. Members of a condo association constitute an ethnic group. Virtually any group that shares any characteristic that distinguishes it from other people would constitute an ethnic group.
What a fucking loser.

Because you are incapable of discerning who is and is not a mental midget based on your own limitations.

I did not make the definition. Here is another:

Oxford English Dictionary
Ethnic
a[djective]

...
2.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]

...
3 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
—Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."[23]

Unlike Lutherans, Jews also defined themselves through matrilineal heritage. Unlike your condo association members - Jews do share a distinctive culture, religion and even language.

You can't have it both ways - you can't define yourself as an ethnic group for the purposes of minority protections against discrimmination on the one hand yet claim not be an ethnic group for the purposes of denying those same protections to another group by trying to claim they are all the same.

It amazes me the lengths you will go to defend a system that is inherently wrong.

Wow what an ignoramus you are. But we knew that already.
It doesn't matter whether you wrote the definition or not. You are the one quoting it to bolster your case. You are responsible for it. And it fails.
Israelis do not define themselves through matrilineal descent. The Law of Return allows anyone with a Jewish grandparent to become a citizen. That isn't Judaism. And I already pointed out that Ethiopian Israelis, Yemenite Israelis, American Israelis and FSU Israelis hardly share the same language, customs, foods or any other marker of an ethnic group.
The system (whatever that means) is not inherently wrong. It is only wrong to morons like you who want to see every conflict as a replay of some other conflict they may or may not understand.

You are hilarious. And stupid. But I'll forgive you that and assume it's only willful arrogance from a pretend Rabbi.

We were not talking about Israeli's as an "ethnic group". We were talking about Jews as an "ethnic group". Nothing you said changes anything thus far nor does it change the status Jews as an ethnic group and the non-Jewish Arab-Israeli as a seperate ethnic group.

Even if we go with your claim - notice that Israeli's still require some form of blood relation.

 

[Marc39]

Agreed but not with the comparison to NK. Isreal is at a crucial point. It can't keep making claims to be the only real democracy (democracy in the way the West understands it to be) in the Middle East and still keep control of the occupied territories (and it does have de-facto control) which keeps millions of people without rights or citizenship or self-determination.

Dummy, Israel is occupying no one. The West Bank is not sovereign Arab land and international law fully permits Jews to reside throughout the territory.

Understand this concept, dummy.

That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.

Wrong, dummy. Apartheid is systematic, governmentally sanctioned discrimination and segregation of its population. No such policy exists in Israel.

Dummy, you need to become familiarized with apartheid before spouting off about it. You look like a moron.

Now, there are a lot of semantical games concerning the status of the Palestinians and a lot of "blame the victim" mentality (and there is a share of blame due the Palestinians) but that doesn't erase the core reality: millions of people, under foreign control, without rights or citizenship or self-determination. It's a situation that can't continue to exist indefinately.

Dummy, the Oslo Accords transferred authority over the West Bank to the PA. Oslo permits an IDF presence. Oslo permits Israeli settlements.

You know nothing of the matter, so, why do you even bother posting, dummy?

Pwned.

 

[jillian]

That is the similarity I see with Apartheid.

for something to be 'apartheid', there has to be a separation of ones CITIZENS. Arab Israelis have all of the rights of citizenship except they have the right to opt out of military service, which Jews aren't allowed to do.

you should also know, that's one of those phrases/words that have meanings that tell us, when reading them, that the person who makes that analogy has issues with Israel that have nothing to do with fairness...

pals aren't israelis. they have no rights of citizenship because they aren't citizens... any more that controlling our borders makes us 'apartheid'.