Israel demolished 467 buildings and displaced 700 Palestinians in 2012

[Saigon]

Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.

I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930, and all of the material written at the time by kibbutzniks uses the term 'Palestinian' for the local people.

David Fromkin's 'Peace to End All Peace' covers this, as does Edward Säid's 'Orientalism', which very poster should read. It is one of the most important book on this conflict.

 

[irosie91]

try again saigon-----you claimed that the book written by FROMKIN ie peace to end all peace---- WRITTEN IN THE 1920s describes arab muslims living in palestine as PALESTINIANS -----in fact the book was written in the 1990s Now you quote SAID in what century did he live in your delusional mind? are you referring to the New York professor incessant arabist propagandaist I recall an interview he had with the ever patient Charlie Rose who got so messed up by SAID's stupidiy------that he got almost hysterical-----first time I ever saw Charlie throw anyone off the program

some kibbutz in which you have a share has records describing arab muslims as "palestinians" ok great----name the kibbutz-----I will investigate ----I got family in kibbutzim

 

[Saigon]

iRosie -

The Fromkin book was published in 1989. It is probably the best book on this topic, though it obviously focuses in other areas.

Everyone posting on this topic should read Säid, IMO. He is one of the most literate spokespeople for the Palestinian people.

Basically ANY reputable source reporting from the area in the 1920s will use the word Palestinian. Not universally, of course, but very widely. 'Palestinian Arab' is also used very widely.

 

[SAYIT]

Hossfly -

That doesn't make books wrong.

There is absolutely no question at all that the term Palestine was used in its current uage during the 1920s.

It sure was and it referred to the geographical region but the only people who were called Palestinians were the region's Jews. Today's "Palestinians" didn't take that name until the mid-'60s.

I am not going to argue a moot point. The Palestinians are the people of the defined place called Palestine. They are the ones with the right to self determination inside those international borders without external interference. They are the ones with the right to form their own government. They are the ones with the right to declare a state.

Foreigners do not have those rights. External interference that denies them their rights is illegal.

A name designation means nothing.

Fair enough, but to designate all of the original 711,000 "refugees" as having been "Palestinian" with legit land rights is bogus. Many of them were not indigenous to Palestine and the agencies empowered to register and assist them required only a 2 year residency of them (1946-1948) and even that, I suspect, was not rigidly enforced.
The fact is, they are and have been wards of the UN for so long it is impossible to separate their "right to self-determination without external interference" from the responsibilities of the UNRWA.
UNRWA, whose sole purpose is to serve the needs of those "refugees," has a yearly budget in excess of $600 mil.

 

[SAYIT]

Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.

I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...

You have a kibbutz?

 

[irosie91]

Poor Saigon had to back pedal his way across this thread OVER AND OVER again

in sum----he has no basis for his idiot claim that in the 1920s ARAB MUSLIMS LIVING IN PALESTINE WERE REFERRED TO AND REFERRED TO THEMSELVES AS "PALESTINIANS" Anyone who wants to KNOW and has lots of time in his hands---got to a LARGE OLD LIBRARY----and look up words like PALESTINE and PALESTINIAN Find travel articles, or even medical reports from ----the middle east which use the word PALESTINIAN in reference to a persons or groups of persons I have no doubt that some person referred to PALESTINIAN FLORA in reference to plants that grow there-----but "that palestinian man over there" ----is a jew In fact that "PALESTINIAN CLINIC" over there-----is also a jewish place in 1922 In New York City the PALESTINIAN RESTAURANT in 1920 was kosher and not halal

 

[Hossfly]

Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.

I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...

You have a kibbutz?

A kibbutz in Helsinki no doubt.

 

[Saigon]

Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.

I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...

You have a kibbutz?

I lived on a kibbutz, yes.

 

[irosie91]

Saigon claims that he lived on a KIBBUTZ that has been in existence since 1930 and in their records since 1930 ---they referred to ARAB MUSLIMS LIVING in the BRITISH MANDATE PALESTINE as "PALESTINIANS" He did not mention if they wrote that in Hebrew or arabic or english or whatever language Saigon and the people there speak or spoke. He has---thus far not named this putative Kibbutz I do have distant and by marriage relatives and friends who have lots of KIBBUTZ family dating back generations I can check over to you SAIGON I have read many books written by jews-----about palestine----first hand stuff published long ago---like in the 1920s In all of them "palestinian" meant a jew living in Palestine. Even organizations titled "Palestinian ______" referred to jewish organizations only

 

[P F Tinmore]

iRosie -

The Fromkin book was published in 1989. It is probably the best book on this topic, though it obviously focuses in other areas.

Everyone posting on this topic should read Säid, IMO. He is one of the most literate spokespeople for the Palestinian people.

Basically ANY reputable source reporting from the area in the 1920s will use the word Palestinian. Not universally, of course, but very widely. 'Palestinian Arab' is also used very widely.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JncXpQQoZAo&feature=related]Edward Said: Orientalism April 16, 2003 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Saigon]

Rosie -

I lived on Kibbutz Dan, and you are more than welcome to check the details with people you know. What you expect to find out, I have no idea.

The thing I think you need to keep in mind is that different people use different words. When we talk about the word 'Palestinian' being used in the 1920, it doen't necessarily mean the word was universally used by Jews, or in England or in the US. It means Palestinian Arabs used it, and people who lived and worked around the region often used it as well.

Of course many Jews called themselves Palestinians from the time of Aliyah to Independence in 1948. Of course Palestinian Arabs also used the term Palestinians from shortly after the Second Aliyah until Independence in 1948.

It really is not difficult stuff, this.

The Wiki section on this is quite good:

Khalidi stresses that Palestinian identity has never been an exclusive one, with "Arabism, religion, and local loyalties" playing an important role. He argues that the modern national identity of Palestinians has its roots in nationalist discourses that emerged among the peoples of the Ottoman empire in the late 19th century which sharpened following the demarcation of modern nation-state boundaries in the Middle East after World War I. He acknowledges that Zionism played a role in shaping this identity, though "it is a serious mistake to suggest that Palestinian identity emerged mainly as a response to Zionism." Khalidi describes the Arab population of British Mandatory Palestine as having "overlapping identities," with some or many expressing loyalties to villages, regions, a projected nation of Palestine, an alternative of inclusion in a Greater Syria, an Arab national project, as well as to Islam."

"The programmes of four Palestinian nationalist societies jamyyat al-Ikha’ wal-‘Afaf (Brotherhood and Purity), al-jam’iyya al-Khayriyya al-Islamiyya, Shirkat al-Iqtissad alFalastini al-Arabi and Shirkat al-Tijara al-Wataniyya al-Iqtisadiyya were reported in the newspaper Falastin in June 1914 by letter from R. Abu al-Sal’ud. The four societies has similarities in function and ideals; the promotion of patriotism, educational aspirations and support for national industries."

In 1918, as the Palestinian Arab national movements gained strength in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre and Nablus, Aref al-Aref joined Hajj Amīn, his brother Fakhri Al Husseini, Ishaaq Darweesh, Ibrahim Daeweesh, Jamal al-Husayni, Kamel Al Budeiri, and Sheikh Hassan Abu Al-So’oud in establishing the Arab Club.

Palestinian nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Rosie -

I lived on Kibbutz Dan, and you are more than welcome to check the details with people you know. What you expect to find out, I have no idea.

The thing I think you need to keep in mind is that different people use different words. When we talk about the word 'Palestinian' being used in the 1920, it doen't necessarily mean the word was universally used by Jews, or in England or in the US. It means Palestinian Arabs used it, and people who lived and worked around the region often used it as well.

Of course many Jews called themselves Palestinians from the time of Aliyah to Independence in 1948. Of course Palestinian Arabs also used the term Palestinians from shortly after the Second Aliyah until Independence in 1948.

It really is not difficult stuff, this.

The Wiki section on this is quite good:

Khalidi stresses that Palestinian identity has never been an exclusive one, with "Arabism, religion, and local loyalties" playing an important role. He argues that the modern national identity of Palestinians has its roots in nationalist discourses that emerged among the peoples of the Ottoman empire in the late 19th century which sharpened following the demarcation of modern nation-state boundaries in the Middle East after World War I. He acknowledges that Zionism played a role in shaping this identity, though "it is a serious mistake to suggest that Palestinian identity emerged mainly as a response to Zionism." Khalidi describes the Arab population of British Mandatory Palestine as having "overlapping identities," with some or many expressing loyalties to villages, regions, a projected nation of Palestine, an alternative of inclusion in a Greater Syria, an Arab national project, as well as to Islam."

"The programmes of four Palestinian nationalist societies jamyyat al-Ikha’ wal-‘Afaf (Brotherhood and Purity), al-jam’iyya al-Khayriyya al-Islamiyya, Shirkat al-Iqtissad alFalastini al-Arabi and Shirkat al-Tijara al-Wataniyya al-Iqtisadiyya were reported in the newspaper Falastin in June 1914 by letter from R. Abu al-Sal’ud. The four societies has similarities in function and ideals; the promotion of patriotism, educational aspirations and support for national industries."

In 1918, as the Palestinian Arab national movements gained strength in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre and Nablus, Aref al-Aref joined Hajj Amīn, his brother Fakhri Al Husseini, Ishaaq Darweesh, Ibrahim Daeweesh, Jamal al-Husayni, Kamel Al Budeiri, and Sheikh Hassan Abu Al-So’oud in establishing the Arab Club.

Palestinian nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you Jewish, Saigon? Just curious. If not, why were you working on a kibbutz?

 

[Saigon]

ForeverY -

No, I'm not Jewish.

I actually went to Israel largely by accident. I was travelling around Europe and met a bunch of people who had worked on kibbutz and had a great time. Everyone I met raved about it. I didn't have a lot of money and wanted to continue travelling, so I headed there from Greece and just volunteered. In those days you could do that.
I absolutely loved it; learned so much about the country, but also about warfare and people in general.

I'd intended to stay 3 months, but a year later I was still there!

 

[irosie91]

Thank you Saigon for that absurd bit of sophistry to cover the fact that the term "PALESTINIAN" referred to JEWS before the 1960s and things JEWISH and did not refer to arab muslims or things "arab muslim" prior to sometime in the 1960s but since there may be some EXCEPTIONS IN USAGE to that rule-----you have PROVEN that the PALESTINIAN NATIONAL IDENTITY is thousands of years old in reference to arabs

I certainly agree that a BRITISH OFFICIAL could very well based on the structure of the english language used the term "PALESTINIAN" to refer to anything IN PALESTINE including the butterflies -----or a crowd of people HOWEVER----there were no national movements of ARABS named PALESTINIAN this or that unless it was NAMED BY A NON ARAB and if asked ----what are you? No arab answered "I AM A BALESTINAN" The fact remains "PALESTINIAN IDENTITY" as one BEING A PALESTINIAN------was not at all arab until the 1960s when it was VERY CONSCIOUSLY AND ARTIFICIALLY ADOPTED FOR POLITICAL AND PROPAGANDAISTIC REASONS--------desperate sophistry supports my position at lot more than it does yours

your citations do not help a newspaper named FALASTIN does not suggest a national identity and the term FALASTINI ARABI an arab living in palestine----the "arab" part is the identity In references in to jews and jewish organizations PALESTINIAN alone ----meant jew or "PALESTINIAN RELIEF ORGANIZATION" meant a jewish organization Even in the USA PALESTINIAN meant jewish way back in the 1920s. You are doing what propagandaists do----SCRAPING THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL. Out of millions of citations----you manage to find three of four which mention the world "palestine" falsely claim it is a NATIONAL IDENTITY among some arabs of the middle east. keep looking It really is a shame that so few people knew----they would have named the then TRANSJORDAN OF the palestine mandate EAST PALESTINE and the whole problem would have been resolved

 

[Saigon]

Rosie -

The link have been posted, and can be easily verified. You can ignore them if they are inconveniant, and I am sure you will.

Jut be clear here - ignoring the fact that there wa a nationalist movement in 1914 means YOU are revinventing history for political reasons - just as you accuse the Palestinians of doing.

a newspaper named FALASTIN does not suggest a national identity

Right. Because a Palestinian nationalist movement would not suggest a national identity, right?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

ForeverY -

No, I'm not Jewish.

I actually went to Israel largely by accident. I was travelling around Europe and met a bunch of people who had worked on kibbutz and had a great time. Everyone I met raved about it. I didn't have a lot of money and wanted to continue travelling, so I headed there from Greece and just volunteered. In those days you could do that.
I absolutely loved it; learned so much about the country, but also about warfare and people in general.

I'd intended to stay 3 months, but a year later I was still there!

Thanks for working hard for the Jewish State, and keeping them supplied with oranges.

 

[Saigon]

Thanks for working hard for the Jewish State, and keeping them supplied with oranges.

Ha! Thanks!

I did pick a lot of oranges, and also worked in the cod farm there. After that I became the volunteer leader, and kind of liaison between 20 drunk Norwegian teeanagers the the kiibutzniks.

It was probably the best time of my life...

 

[irosie91]

Rosie -

The link have been posted, and can be easily verified. You can ignore them if they are inconveniant, and I am sure you will.

Jut be clear here - ignoring the fact that there wa a nationalist movement in 1914 means YOU are revinventing history for political reasons - just as you accuse the Palestinians of doing.

a newspaper named FALASTIN does not suggest a national identity

Right. Because a Palestinian nationalist movement would not suggest a national identity, right?

No it would not the movement you described referred to itself as ARABS IN PALESTINE it is an ARABIST NATIONAL MOVEMENT learn some history
The issue was not BALESTINIANS the issue was PAN ARABISM and still is
except when in morphs into ISLAMICISM then it is PAN ISLAMICISM you are actually a bit dim on this subject Review the history of the MUSLIM BROTHERHOD and your hero AL HUSSEINI Al husseini was from 'palestine' but he never heard of a "BALESTINIAN" ------he was also an arabist islamicist

now try to focus there is no "palestinian" problem----the PROBLEM is arabism>>>islamicism and always was Israel is in the way of THE CALAPHATE OF THE MIDDLE EAST your dream world

 

[P F Tinmore]

It sure was and it referred to the geographical region but the only people who were called Palestinians were the region's Jews. Today's "Palestinians" didn't take that name until the mid-'60s.

I am not going to argue a moot point. The Palestinians are the people of the defined place called Palestine. They are the ones with the right to self determination inside those international borders without external interference. They are the ones with the right to form their own government. They are the ones with the right to declare a state.

Foreigners do not have those rights. External interference that denies them their rights is illegal.

A name designation means nothing.

Fair enough, but to designate all of the original 711,000 "refugees" as having been "Palestinian" with legit land rights is bogus. Many of them were not indigenous to Palestine and the agencies empowered to register and assist them required only a 2 year residency of them (1946-1948) and even that, I suspect, was not rigidly enforced.
The fact is, they are and have been wards of the UN for so long it is impossible to separate their "right to self-determination without external interference" from the responsibilities of the UNRWA.
UNRWA, whose sole purpose is to serve the needs of those "refugees," has a yearly budget in excess of $600 mil.

OK, the two year cutoff was arbitrary as would any other amount of time. I don't understand why you would have a problem with it. What would you consider to be a proper number of years.

 

[irosie91]

I am waiting for the CUT OFF time no matter what it is----I know I will be eligible to own that Oil Well in the country in wnich my husband was born ------his community has been there for about 2500 years -----but lets talk about the jewish claim to YATHRIB later called medina-----jews lived in that land for at least 1000 years before the birth of the person whose carcass was planted there-------the jews of the world CLAIM THAT LEGACY