Israel - Apartheid, yes or no.

[Daniyel]

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Penelope]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

 

[Daniyel]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

It doesn't mean Israel is an apartheid state, it is called a military occupation.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

No -- the use of the term "apartheid" was simply crafted by Arab propagandists as a means to sell their hatred to the less intelligent leftists of the world. By using this term lifted from another conflict and using it here, the haters hope to capitalize on a ready-made market that reacts in Pavlovian fashion to the word, itself, rather than ever considering whether or not it is valid.

Only extraordinarily stupid people use this term in regards to Israel. They are just mindless automatons devoid of intellect who have been manipulated in very cynical fashion by those who have conditioned them to respond in the appropriate manner.

 

[MJB12741]

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

Israel is so apartheid it is the only country in the entire Middle East to have citizens of virtually all living faiths including Muslim Palestinians witrh equal voting rights in the Israeli knesset.

 

[Penelope]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

It doesn't mean Israel is an apartheid state, it is called a military occupation.

Call it what you want , a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

Israel is so apartheid it is the only country in the entire Middle East to have citizens of virtually all living faiths including Muslim Palestinians witrh equal voting rights in the Israeli knesset.

As long as they keep their mouths shut! Just like some members in our congress, appease the elders and top dogs.

 

[Daniyel]

Yes the Palestinians are under the control of the Zionist government and do not have the same freedom or rights as the Jewish people.

It doesn't mean Israel is an apartheid state, it is called a military occupation.

Call it what you want , a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

Israel is so apartheid it is the only country in the entire Middle East to have citizens of virtually all living faiths including Muslim Palestinians witrh equal voting rights in the Israeli knesset.

As long as they keep their mouths shut! Just like some members in our congress, appease the elders and top dogs.

We are not talking about the WB/Gaza - we are talking about Israel, the state of Israel..you throw up claims without understand what you're saying - got it?

 

[Penelope]

Have you read your papers today?

 

[Daniyel]

Have you read your papers today?

My papers?

 

[Daniyel]

Your dialect is very full of emotions, no wonder you can't get a clear sentence.

 

[High_Gravity]

Hello everyone,

Since we usually have this sort of inside debates in threads I decided to take a big subject and invite everyone to contribute their opinion, I mostly interested to hear what RoccoR and montelatici have to say about it but everyone is welcome, open debate for everyone.

Please to everyone participating in the poll - make a post with your opinion.

Now basically Israel is being constantly accused by the pro Palestinian lobby claiming that Israel is an apartheid state, I would like to hear why and please for the sake of order - make a reference to the fact(in facts we trust) - to base the claim because I always hear this claim over and over again but never heard WHY.

Thanks in advance.

Nope.

 

[RoccoR]

Daniyel, et al,

"Apartheid" is a common theme directed at the Israelis, but one must understand what "Apartheid" means.

First the definition:

Article 7 --- Crimes against humanity --- Rome Statues, International Criminal Court
Para 2(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

Para 1 --- For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

(a) Murder;
(b) Extermination;
(c) Enslavement;
(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
(f) Torture;
(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) The crime of apartheid;
(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
​

This should not be confused with domestic law (internal political compact & basic law) or occupation law [International Humanitarian Law (IHL)]:

Annex to the Convention: Regulations respecting the laws and customs of war on land - Section III : Military authority over the territory of the hostile state - Convention (IV) respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land and its annex: Regulations concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.

Regulations: Article 42:
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

Regulations: Article 43:
The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.​

This is to say that the laws governing the citizenry inside the State of Israel are different (established through self-determination) then those laws (established by the international community) pertaining to the protections of persons over which Israel exercises "effect control" within the occupied territories.

Internally, Israel is govern by an extensive set of Basic Laws, the most applicable subset of these Basic Laws to the issue of "Apartheid" is the set known as: Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty (1992)

Purpose 1. The purpose of this Basic Law is to protect human dignity and liberty, in order to establish in a Basic Law the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

Amendment of
section 1 (1) Section 1 shall be designated 1(a) and shall be preceded by the following section:​

Basic principles

1. Fundamental human rights in Israel are founded upon recognition of the value of the human being, the sanctity of human life, and the principle that all persons are free; these rights shall be upheld in the spirit of the principles set forth in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel.​

Preservation of life, body and dignity 2. There shall be no violation of the life, body or dignity of any person as such.

Protection of property 3. There shall be no violation of the property of a person.

Protection of life, body and dignity 4. All persons are entitled to protection of their life, body and dignity.

Personal liberty 5. There shall be no deprivation or restriction of the liberty of a person by imprisonment, arrest, extradition or otherwise.

Leaving and entering Israel 6.

(a) All persons are free to leave Israel.​

(b) Every Israel national has the right of entry into Israel from abroad.
​

Privacy 7.

(a) All persons have the right to privacy and to intimacy.​

(b) There shall be no entry into the private premises of a person who has not consented thereto.
(c) No search shall be conducted on the private premises of a person, nor in the body or personal effects.
(d) There shall be no violation of the confidentiality of conversation, or of the writings or records of a person.
​

Violation of rights 8. There shall be no violation of rights under this Basic Law except by a law befitting the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose, and to an extent no greater than is required.

Amendment of​

section 1
(2) At the end of section 8, the following shall be added:
"or by regulation enacted by virtue of express authorization in such law."​

Reservation regarding security forces 9. There shall be no restriction of rights under this Basic Law held by persons serving in the Israel Defence Forces, the Israel Police, the Prisons Service and other security organizations of the State, nor shall such rights be subject to conditions, except by virtue of a law, or by regulation enacted by virtue of a law, and to an extent no greater than is required by the nature and character of the service.

Validity of laws 10. This Basic Law shall not affect the validity of any law (din) in force prior to the commencement of the Basic Law.

Application 11. All governmental authorities are bound to respect the rights under this Basic Law.

Stability 12. This Basic Law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations; notwithstanding, when a state of emergency exists, by virtue of a declaration under section 9 of the Law and Administration Ordinance, 5708-1948, emergency regulations may be enacted by virtue of said section to deny or restrict rights under this Basic Law, provided the denial or restriction shall be for a proper purpose and for a period and extent no greater than is required.

As one can from a review of the applicable laws, there is NO "widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population" of Israel that is not covered by a protection under domestic law.

As for the occupied territories, the (direct and indirect) "effective control" is to maintain and "ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country (the State of Palestine)." This includes the swift application of law enforcement and security measures necessary to deal effectively with "Protected persons who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power" under Article 68, Fourth Geneva Convention, mandated by the International Community (Applicability of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and the other occupied Arab territories --- emphasized under A/RES/68/81 16 December 2013). Or --- until such time as effective control is no longer required over the State of Palestine as it comes to terms under the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States:

"Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." (A/RES/25/2625)

• Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements (OSLO Accord I)
• Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (OSLO Accord II)

It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.​

The various containment, quarantine measures, and security cordons are within the occupied territories are NOT to force a separation "in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime," but to maintain and "ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety," during the occupation period.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Penelope]

Have you read your papers today?

My papers?

Your newspapers? Do you have papers, we have birth certificates.

 

[montelatici]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

 

[montelatici]

"The various containment, quarantine measures, and security cordons are within the occupied territories are NOT to force a separation "in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime," but to maintain and "ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety," during the occupation period."

"Article III. International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the
motive involved....."


International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid Adopted by the
General Assembly of the United Nations on 30 Novem
ber 1973

 

[Daniyel]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

 

[Penelope]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

 

[Penelope]

Benjamin B. Ferencz, an investigator of Nazi war crimes after World War II and the Chief Prosecutor for the United States Army at the Einsatzgruppen Trial, one of the twelve military trials held by the U.S. authorities at Nuremberg, later became a vocal advocate of the establishment of an international rule of law and of an International Criminal Court. In his first book published in 1975, entitled Defining International Aggression-The Search for World Peace, he argued for the establishment of an international court.[68]

United States and the International Criminal Court - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I guess B. B. Ferencz, a Jewish Prosecutor , thought it was ok to establish and international rule of law , but now that is has served it's Zionist purpose, Israel doesn't want it to apply to them. That is the double standard, same as with the US although Clinton and Obama and others have thought of joining back up, I'm sure AIPAC and the neocons (Rep warmongers)is behind them not joining , at least until the Zionist get rid of the Pals. Then it will be just honky dory.

 

[toastman]

Where is there apartheid inside Israel ?

 

[Daniyel]

Israel has not acceeded to the Rome Statute (ICC). Why are you quoting it? Israel has signed the
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. 30 November 1973. That's what I provided as the criteria that Israel has agreed to. Under that criteria Israel is an Apartheid state, no amount of tap dancing around the issue by you will change that. It is just fact.

Alongside with the United States of America.
But again, not signing on the Rome Statute is what define a state to be apartheid as the Rome Statute defines?

Israel[edit]
Israel voted against the adoption of the Rome Statute but later signed it for a short period. In 2002, the United States and Israel "unsigned" the Rome Statute, indicating that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, they have no legal obligations arising from their signature of the statute.[28]

Israel states that it has "deep sympathy" with the goals of the Court. However, it has concerns that political pressure on the Court would lead it to reinterpret international law or to "invent new crimes". It cites the inclusion of "the transfer of parts of the civilian population of an occupying power into occupied territory" as a war crime as an example of this, whilst at the same time disagrees with the exclusion of terrorism and drug trafficking. Israel sees the powers given to the prosecutor as excessive and the geographical appointment of judges as disadvantaging Israel which is prevented from joining any of the UN Regional Groups.[29]

Wise see the future.

You mean the sneaky know the future that they intend to create.

Ahh fresh new conspiracy! Please explain what war crimes Israel found guilt of and by whom - next tell me if it has anything to do with apartheid, that would be an acceptable post, otherwise - don't bother.