Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[Ravi]

Ramzan Kadyrov [president of Chechnya] said the women, whose bodies were found dumped by the roadside, had "loose morals" and were rightfully shot by male relatives in honor killings.

The 32-year-old former militia leader is trying to impose Islamic values and strengthen traditional customs in predominantly Muslim Chechnya, aiming to blunt the appeal of hardline Islamic separatists and shore up his power.

Kadyrov describes women as the property of their husbands and says their main role is to bear children. He encourages men to take more than one wife, even though polygamy is illegal in Russia. Women and girls must wear headscarves in all schools, universities and government offices.

Chechnya leader tells why 'loose' women deserved to die | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Headline | International News

 

[strollingbones]

another enlightened voice heard from...

 

[manu1959]

this is why they are all fucked uped.....

you can't score a piece of strange......there are now titty bars....no women on the street unlees they are wearing a trash bag......hooters should open a chain and all those dudes would calm down......

no wonder all they want to do is go to war and blow themselves up.....

 

[ABikerSailor]

Makes me wonder why people think converting to islam is such a good idea........

 

[manu1959]

Makes me wonder why people think converting to islam is such a good idea........

so you can rape women and kill them.....all in the name of god.....

 

[manifold]

But Angi knows peaceful, women respecting Muslims. So I'm left wondering what Ravi's ulterior motive is for posting this.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Peaceful, woman respecting muslims?

Where?

Sunnidiot ain't one of 'em, seeing as he thinks that "owning" his wife is cool.

The Taliban ain't one of 'em, seeing as they denigrate and degrade women, throwing acid on their faces if they want to go to school.

BTW Sunnidiot, can you tell me if your wife has a college education, and, if so, why haven't you thrown acid on her yet?

 

[Diuretic]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

 

[TAS]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

 

[Burp]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

 

[TAS]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

First, this is something different from what we are talking about in this thread. Honor killing is the killing of a female member by the male member (brother, father, etc) of the family if the girl is having sex outside wedlock.

Second, your understanding of the above verses is not the correct one. The Khidr (the name of the one who is talking with Moses) killed the boy because of how troublesome he is going to be regarding his parents. This is not an honor killing.

 

[Burp]

Ahh....so, by true definition, honor killing isn't allowed.

But killing a family member because they will embarrass or be "troublesome" to the family is allowed.

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Sunni Man]

You do realize Burp that this part of Surah 18 : 60-82 was an allegory and not a lesson in honor killing?

In essence, it was to show that things are not always as they seem.

I quote from Surah 18: The Cave - Overview

Surah [18:60-82] Moses was up against mysteries which he wanted to explore. He searched out a man endued with knowledge derived from the divine springs from which flow the paradoxes of life. He is shown three such paradoxes and how human impatience is inconsistent with their true understanding. The highest knowledge come not except by divine gift, and a constant, patient striving, with Faith, to apprehend something of the purpose of the All-Wise God.

 

[TAS]

Ahh....so, by true definition, honor killing isn't allowed.

But killing a family member because they will embarrass or be "troublesome" to the family is allowed.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Khidr was guided by Allah to do the 3 things he did; the ship, the boy and the wall.
Today, Khidr doesn't live anymore.

 

[Burp]

You do realize Burp that this part of Surah 18 : 60-82 was an allegory and not a lesson in honor killing?

In essence, it was to show that things are not always as they seem.

I quote from Surah 18: The Cave - Overview

Surah [18:60-82] Moses was up against mysteries which he wanted to explore. He searched out a man endued with knowledge derived from the divine springs from which flow the paradoxes of life. He is shown three such paradoxes and how human impatience is inconsistent with their true understanding. The highest knowledge come not except by divine gift, and a constant, patient striving, with Faith, to apprehend something of the purpose of the All-Wise God.

I agree with you that my example isn't one of honor killing. Honor killing is killing the female member of the family.

Got it.

Also got it that when the man Moses was with killed the young boy, it wasn't an honor killing.

He just killed him because he would be an embarrassment and be "troublesome" to his family.

Got it.

I feel so much better now.

 

[manifold]

It's cultural not religious.

Talk about splitting hairs.

 

[Ravi]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Ethnic Chechens once upon a time were your basic tree-hugging nature worshipers. I'm imagine they had some bad practices of their own, but I tend to think they didn't have a lot of sexual hangups. From what I understand, the country is now majority Sunni...and they seem to reflect our very own Sunni's ideas about western culture...it is evil.

But what I think doesn't matter. The president of their country claims it is an Islamic value.

 

[Diuretic]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

Dunno. I can read an English version of the Qu'ran but I can't read it in Arabic. I can read anything in Engish but that doesn't mean I can understand it. I was reading a scientific article the other night, "Origin and evolution of the 1918 'Spanish' influenza virus hemagglutin gene" and I understood some of it but most of it was over my head because I'm not a scientist. So while I understand a lot more about the virus that gave the world the "Spanish" Influenza Pandemic of 1918 I don't have anything approaching the knowledge of a scientist working in this area (or a scientist not working in this area come to think of it ).

So, what do I know about the Qu'ran or the Hadith? Nothing. Absolutely nothng.

 

[Diuretic]

It's cultural not religious.

Talk about splitting hairs.

Not really

British Muslims do not condone so-called honour killings, community leaders have said

.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Imagine if anybody actually took the old testament seriously today and stoned children who cursed their parents or took slaves from among the surrounding nations? As far as I know modern orthodox Jews don't do that, but they follow other Mosaic laws like not eating shellfish or shaving sideburns. Why?