Islamic honor killings becoming more acceptable to Islam?

[Diuretic]

Imagine if anybody actually took the old testament seriously today and stoned children who cursed their parents or took slaves from among the surrounding nations? As far as I know modern orthodox Jews don't do that, but they follow other Mosaic laws like not eating shellfish or shaving sideburns. Why?

Shellfish will kill ya if ya get a bad one.

Sideburns. Hey wait around long enough and the hula hoop will come back into fashion too

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Is it religious or is it cultural? Or is it just plain patriarchal?

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

And yet entire sections of the Muslim faith accept it, including the palastinians. Go figure, it is not just one or two p[laces. AND it is directly attributed to RELIGION by those that practice it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

First, this is something different from what we are talking about in this thread. Honor killing is the killing of a female member by the male member (brother, father, etc) of the family if the girl is having sex outside wedlock.

Second, your understanding of the above verses is not the correct one. The Khidr (the name of the one who is talking with Moses) killed the boy because of how troublesome he is going to be regarding his parents. This is not an honor killing.

He was killed for the honor of his parents, if not, then what other reason was he murdered? Or are you saying in Islam it is ok to murder troublesome children just to get rid of their troubles? That is more disturbing then Honor Killings.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Exactly

It's cultural not religious. You will find it in specific nations or communities like Jordan or Pakistan. I double dare anyone to bring me a Quran verse or a hadith that allows "honor" killings

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

Dunno. I can read an English version of the Qu'ran but I can't read it in Arabic. I can read anything in Engish but that doesn't mean I can understand it. I was reading a scientific article the other night, "Origin and evolution of the 1918 'Spanish' influenza virus hemagglutin gene" and I understood some of it but most of it was over my head because I'm not a scientist. So while I understand a lot more about the virus that gave the world the "Spanish" Influenza Pandemic of 1918 I don't have anything approaching the knowledge of a scientist working in this area (or a scientist not working in this area come to think of it ).

So, what do I know about the Qu'ran or the Hadith? Nothing. Absolutely nothng.

And YOUR ignorance is an answer to what? That we should just believe against all EVIDENCE that the Muslim religion does not practice murder and mayhem for a number of different reasons? So during the Catholic Inquisition your position would have been, you don't understand all the scriptures so you could not question the murder of innocents for speaking their mind or acting on their free will? Or wait, I bet THAT would be differen right?

 

[Diuretic]

And yet entire sections of the Muslim faith accept it, including the palastinians. Go figure, it is not just one or two p[laces. AND it is directly attributed to RELIGION by those that practice it.

Hello?

If you want to legitimise a despicable conduct in a society where people put religion before rational thinking what do you do? You use religion to legimitimse it.

Religion has many uses. Worshipping a god is only one of them. You can also use religion to get elected to political office

Religion - so many uses! Get some today!

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And yet entire sections of the Muslim faith accept it, including the palastinians. Go figure, it is not just one or two p[laces. AND it is directly attributed to RELIGION by those that practice it.

Hello?

If you want to legitimise a despicable conduct in a society where people put religion before rational thinking what do you do? You use religion to legimitimse it.

Religion has many uses. Worshipping a god is only one of them. You can also use religion to get elected to political office

Religion - so many uses! Get some today!

And yet you condemn one but not the other, usual leftist bullshit. Christian belief BAD, Muslim belief, ok. Got it.

 

[Diuretic]

[

And yet you condemn one but not the other, usual leftist bullshit. Christian belief BAD, Muslim belief, ok. Got it.

If Islam requires honour kilings then why isn't it happening in every Islamic state?

If Islam requires honour killings then why are senior members of Britain's Islamic community coming out against it?

The truth is that ignorant peasants are perpetrating these crimes. It has little to do with Islam and everything to do with an ignorant and uneducated peasantry that has a totalitarian patriarchial idea of how women should be kept under control.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

[

And yet you condemn one but not the other, usual leftist bullshit. Christian belief BAD, Muslim belief, ok. Got it.

If Islam requires honour kilings then why isn't it happening in every Islamic state?

If Islam requires honour killings then why are senior members of Britain's Islamic community coming out against it?

The truth is that ignorant peasants are perpetrating these crimes. It has little to do with Islam and everything to do with an ignorant and uneducated peasantry that has a totalitarian patriarchial idea of how women should be kept under control.

So Pakistan , Jordan, Palastine, Lebanon, Checyna and other places are all full of ignorant peasants? None of their leaders, none of their religious Judges that rule on these matters, none of their tribal heads are intelligent or informed on Islamic matters?

Usual response from a leftbot.

 

[Diuretic]

So Pakistan , Jordan, Palastine, Lebanon, Checyna and other places are all full of ignorant peasants? None of their leaders, none of their religious Judges that rule on these matters, none of their tribal heads are intelligent or informed on Islamic matters?

Usual response from a leftbot.

Of course they're full of ignorant peasants. Did you think they were full of college professors?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So Pakistan , Jordan, Palastine, Lebanon, Checyna and other places are all full of ignorant peasants? None of their leaders, none of their religious Judges that rule on these matters, none of their tribal heads are intelligent or informed on Islamic matters?

Usual response from a leftbot.

Of course they're full of ignorant peasants. Did you think they were full of college professors?

So Pakistan got the bomb how? I mean if the land is just full of ignorant assholes how is it they have nuclear weapons and modern society with modern weapons and materials? Same with Palastine , Jordan, Checyna, and the other places this occurs, like India? I guess we need some super smart liberal savior to go save them, right? I mean that is always what you liberal dumb asses claim.

 

[Diuretic]

So Pakistan got the bomb how? I mean if the land is just full of ignorant assholes how is it they have nuclear weapons and modern society with modern weapons and materials? Same with Palastine , Jordan, Checyna, and the other places this occurs, like India? I guess we need some super smart liberal savior to go save them, right? I mean that is always what you liberal dumb asses claim.

How did the US get the bomb?

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Surah Al-Kahf (The Cave) 18 of the Quran. Read aya 60-80. In these verses Moses is with another man. In verse 74, they come across a young man and the man with Moses kills him. Moses questions why but doesn't get an answer until verse 80. This is verse 80 (3 translations):

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL: And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR: And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:

The lad was killed to save the parents, the family, their honor and standing with Allah.

Your thougths?

First, this is something different from what we are talking about in this thread. Honor killing is the killing of a female member by the male member (brother, father, etc) of the family if the girl is having sex outside wedlock.

Second, your understanding of the above verses is not the correct one. The Khidr (the name of the one who is talking with Moses) killed the boy because of how troublesome he is going to be regarding his parents. This is not an honor killing.

He was killed for the honor of his parents, if not, then what other reason was he murdered? Or are you saying in Islam it is ok to murder troublesome children just to get rid of their troubles? That is more disturbing then Honor Killings.

I agree, but there's a precedent for that in the Torah/Old Testament as well:

Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Deuteronomy 21

And yet entire sections of the Muslim faith accept it, including the palastinians. Go figure, it is not just one or two p[laces. AND it is directly attributed to RELIGION by those that practice it.

Hello?

If you want to legitimise a despicable conduct in a society where people put religion before rational thinking what do you do? You use religion to legimitimse it.

Religion has many uses. Worshipping a god is only one of them. You can also use religion to get elected to political office

Religion - so many uses! Get some today!

And yet you condemn one but not the other, usual leftist bullshit. Christian belief BAD, Muslim belief, ok. Got it.

Personally, I hold my own country/culture to a higher standard. People here have the benefit of secularism in civil life, while those in Islamic countries are fully immersed in medieval doctrines due to orthopraxy tending towards theocracy. They have no basis for knowing differently as they live fully immersed in religious life.

Christianity in theory could be less harmful than most religions, except maybe Buddhism. The idea of loving your enemies wasn't original, but was certainly better and more sophisticated than burning animals when you did something wrong or stoning people for minor offenses like a hypocrital and brutal savage.

What I don't like about Christianity is the sheer hypocrisy among those who have called themselves Christians over the years, though I admit things have gotten much better than they were in the time of Isabitcha of Castille. And while all religions lack evidence, Christianity seems especially illogical to me in its theology: e.g. the concept of original sin (knowledge bad, obedience good), the idea that god can send himself/son to sacrifice himself to change his own rules. The idea that one entity (Christ) can be told he's awesome, essentially, to exonerate all sins great and small. It seems as arbitrary as a king who metes out the death penalty (hell) for anybody who won't tell him he's awesome and exonerates those who tell him he's awesome of any and all crimes, except the decision of guilt is made before the existence of the king can be confirmed at all.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So Pakistan got the bomb how? I mean if the land is just full of ignorant assholes how is it they have nuclear weapons and modern society with modern weapons and materials? Same with Palastine , Jordan, Checyna, and the other places this occurs, like India? I guess we need some super smart liberal savior to go save them, right? I mean that is always what you liberal dumb asses claim.

How did the US get the bomb?

Not by being full of ignorant people you retard.

 

[Diuretic]

So Pakistan got the bomb how? I mean if the land is just full of ignorant assholes how is it they have nuclear weapons and modern society with modern weapons and materials? Same with Palastine , Jordan, Checyna, and the other places this occurs, like India? I guess we need some super smart liberal savior to go save them, right? I mean that is always what you liberal dumb asses claim.

How did the US get the bomb?

Not by being full of ignorant people you retard.

Oh, I'm wounded by such an attack! I may never show my nick here again!

**** it, I can hardly type for laughing!

Abdul Qadeer Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pakistan. The great ally

Oh now wait, it can't be Pakistan. I mean the border with Afghanistan isn't controlled by the Taleban, it's full of Harvard-educated yuppies! How the **** could I miss that?

 

[LiveUninhibited]

So Pakistan got the bomb how? I mean if the land is just full of ignorant assholes how is it they have nuclear weapons and modern society with modern weapons and materials? Same with Palastine , Jordan, Checyna, and the other places this occurs, like India? I guess we need some super smart liberal savior to go save them, right? I mean that is always what you liberal dumb asses claim.

How did the US get the bomb?

Not by being full of ignorant people you retard.

I don't know if having a nuclear weapon is a very good indicator for the overall intelligence of the populace. Sure, a group of American and German scientists developed the nuclear bomb. What does that have to do with the overall populace? It's not like honor killings are meted out on a national government level.

 

[Diuretic]

I don't know if having a nuclear weapon is a very good indicator for the overall intelligence of the populace. Sure, a group of American and captured German scientists developed the nuclear bomb. What does that have to do with the overall populace? It's not like honor killings are meted out on a national government level.

Exactly. Who but an elite is going to develop something like an atomic weapon?

The nature of the populace is irrelevant. What it requires is a rulling elite.

So, back to my point. The development and possession of atomic/nuclear weapons isn't dependent on the general education of the populace.

 

[Ravi]

It's cultural not religious.

Talk about splitting hairs.

Not really

British Muslims do not condone so-called honour killings, community leaders have said

.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | London | UK Muslims condemn honour killings

That's good, but it isn't good enough. There is certainly nothing in British society that culturally condones honor killings...and there are no secular societies that condone honor killings that I know of. Therefore, it is the religion that is the problem.

 

[manifold]

Yes Di,

It is splitting hairs. The people this thread was started about would hardly draw any distinction between their culture and their religion. So why would you?

What Muslims in England do is irrelevant to the fact that these honor killings in Chechnya are rooted in a culture of religious intolerance and extremism.

 

[catzmeow]

What Muslims in England do is irrelevant to the fact that these honor killings in Chechnya are rooted in a culture of religious intolerance and extremism.

And, in spite of the declaration that Muslims in England do not condone honor killings, honor killings are still practiced by muslims in England.

Kind of a "pay attention to what I say, and not what I do" thing.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How did the US get the bomb?

Not by being full of ignorant people you retard.

I don't know if having a nuclear weapon is a very good indicator for the overall intelligence of the populace. Sure, a group of American and German scientists developed the nuclear bomb. What does that have to do with the overall populace? It's not like honor killings are meted out on a national government level.

Wrong, Courts do routinely mete out JUST such punishment in Pakistan. And the Federal level Judiciary seldom over turns the ruling. So much for that claim.

Now remind me? It is ok to call Muslims ignorant ***** but by god you better not insult their religion right?