Islam Does not Permit Killing Unless Your are Being Oppressed from Practicing Islam

[Merlin1047]

Originally posted by deaddude
If it is Impossible to change your views on the subject, even slightly, and it is equally impossible to change the views of the other participants in this discussion then I believe the debate is pointless.

Jeez, what was that? Talk about useless arguments - your post certainly seems to fit that category. Don't know what you're driving at, but unless you have a point to make, I don't really need your approval, or lack thereof on my post. Nor do we require your services as referee on this discussion.

I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to change my views. I said that there was no way that I can be convinced islam is a peaceful religion, and then I stated the reasons why. As long as these reasons continue to be valid and current, my view will not change.

"Skhaldi sees her self as a peaceful Muslim; she has the right to see her self that way as part of her freedom of opinion and her freedom of religion." Yes, so what? I never challenged Stephanie's view of herself. That was never the issue. Stephanie maintains that her view of islam predominates. I disagree based on the evidence I see around the world.

"You believe that all Islam is violent and that Skhaldi, being peaceful, is therefore a peaceful non-Muslim. " I stated that islam is a violent religion. Never said all moslems were violent. You're reading what you want to see. Try sticking to the statements presented without putting your spin on them. And how you managed to come to the conclusion that I believe Stephanie to be a "peaceful non-Muslim" is beyond me. That statement makes no sense whatever.

"You have the right to believe that as part of your freedom of opinion. You both have the right to post those opinions here as part of your freedom of speech. " Well thank you for that. You have a firm grasp of the obvious.

"Posting them here, though it’s within your rights to do so, ends in useless argument, not useful debate. " Who says it's a "useless argument"? You? I wasn't aware that anyone had appointed you as the arbiter of which posts lacked merit and which were worthwhile. If you have something to say on the issues under discussion, by all means, jump right in. But if all you can do is sit back and pass pompous judgement with vague, nebulous nonsensical statements then you might as well direct your efforts elsewhere.

 

[deaddude]

I'm sorry that you were offended by my post

"I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to change my views."

then I must have misinterpreted your earlier post of

"Speaking for myself only, there is no way that you can convince me that islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood."

To me no way and impossible seemed synonomous enough.

"As long as these reasons continue to be valid and current, my view will not change." and if she was some how able to invalidate your reasons on here would your oppinion would change?

If I did misinterpret the earlier post, and it is indeed possible to change your views on this subject then my earlier post has been rendered assinine by my misinterpretation. I apologise again.

 

[ajwps]

The following is from a direct Islamic translation of the Qur'an from Chapter (Sura) 9 Verse 5

Does this Qur'an verse sound familiar to anyone?


"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (ambush); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

http://quranbrowser.com/

 

[ajwps]

The following Qur'anic verses describe clearly that beside the 72 dark eyed virgins these martyrs get as a reward they also get to have sex with little boys (like pearls) without sin forever. What a great religion this is.

http://quranbrowser.com/

Qur'an

The Mount
52:23 They shall there exchange, one with another, a (loving) cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of SIN.


The Mount
52:24 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Boys (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.


The Mount
52:25 They will advance to each other, engaging in mutual enquiry.


===============================


Time, Man, (every) Man, This (day-and-)age
76:19 And round about them will (serve) BOYS of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.


Time, Man, (every) Man, This (day-and-)age
76:20 And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.

 

[sweetbilly]

I would like to say this concerning religion vs true faith: all people exemplify their beliefs with their actions. Hitler exemplified Darwin, Ben Ladin is the example of true Islam, christians and Jesus are the only examples of love and tollerance in this sick, twisted world, exemplifying the true power of the true God and his true followers. How can anyone say that they are faithful to their religion if they refuse to practice their beliefs exactally as they have been ordered to by their God, thus, the difference between christianity and Islam (Jesus never beheaded 24 year-old-boys that were trying to make the lives of the people that were calling for his death better, but it's an everyday occurance in the Islamic world). In the Islamic world, Ben laden is probably the only muslim that has ever truly followed the teachings of the koran. Thus, from his actions he has exposed the true face of Islam. For christians it is easy to understand what is truly happening in the world we have Gods' (word which is infalible), however the arabs don't, so we tollerate their murderous beliefs to our detriment (out of respect and love, like jesus did, and unlike Islam). I do not advocate eliminating Arabs, just their religion and those that perpetuate it. Islam has many problems concerning not only what they teach but with the authenticity of their claims that their book is the word of the one true God. In christianity there are over 1200 fulfilled prophecys, in Islam one, and it has only a 20% chance of accurate. Jesus never advocated murdering those that don't agree (he said he would deal with it in his own time). In Islam, all they ever talk about is "vengeance". In Christianity there have been advances that have increased knowledge, and brought tremendous benefits to mankind. In Islamic nations they're still grinding their bread on stones, and murdering innocent Jews. Christianity and God says, "if you don't believe what i have told you test me and see if i have lied to you". In Islam, they say if you don't believe we will cut off your head. Oh yea, i can feel the love an dtollerance coming from the Islamic world, can't you? Skhaldi, i think you should give your religion a second look using a little common sense, before it's too late and you wind up on Gods' sh!t list.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by ajwps
The following Qur'anic verses describe clearly that beside the 72 dark eyed virgins these martyrs get as a reward they also get to have sex with little boys (like pearls) without sin forever. What a great religion this is.

http://quranbrowser.com/

Qur'an

The Mount
52:23 They shall there exchange, one with another, a (loving) cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of SIN.


The Mount
52:24 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Boys (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.


The Mount
52:25 They will advance to each other, engaging in mutual enquiry.


===============================


Time, Man, (every) Man, This (day-and-)age
76:19 And round about them will (serve) BOYS of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.


Time, Man, (every) Man, This (day-and-)age
76:20 And when thou lookest, it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.

The Mount.

A fitting description, no?

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

I would like to say this concerning religion vs true faith: all people exemplify their beliefs with their actions. Hitler exemplified Darwin, Ben Ladin is the example of true Islam, christians and Jesus are the only examples of love and tollerance in this sick, twisted world, exemplifying the true power of the true God and his true followers. How can anyone say that they are faithful to their religion if they refuse to practice their beliefs exactally as they have been ordered to by their God, thus, the difference between christianity and Islam (Jesus never beheaded 24 year-old-boys that were trying to make the lives of the people that were calling for his death better, but it's an everyday occurance in the Islamic world)......

Jesus was the only one with examples of love and tolerance in this sick twisted world.

1) Jesus killed a fig tree because it was not in its season with fruit.

2) Jesus killed innocent swine because he had chased the 'demons' from the men into the pigs and drove them over a cliff.

3) Jesus when being tried by Pilate, ordered them to bring his accussers before him to be slain.

4) When Jesus was preaching to the Rabbis, his mother Mary and his brothers came to find him as they did not know where he was and Jesus told them he was doing his father's work. Mary and his brothers said that he was crazy as he refused to recognize his own mother.

Question:

Was Jesus god or was he the son of god or was he a holy ghost or was he all of them in one god-head?

Did G-d make His creation man imperfect so that his son could die and save everyone? Or did G-d make mankind without original sin but gave each man and woman the freewill to choose to follow the path of good or evil? Why would he need to save you from your own evil and sinful ways if G-d made both of them so that you are personally responsible for your actions on this earth?

Deuteronomy 30:15

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil

 

[dilloduck]

If you wanta argue religion go ahead as many have attacked yours. I'll make ya a deal tho----I won't kill your people if you don't kill mine.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by dilloduck

If you wanta argue religion go ahead as many have attacked yours. I'll make ya a deal tho----I won't kill your people if you don't kill mine.

Sounds like a winner. But a history reveals that your deal has never held for long periods of time.

The KKK, Aryan White Supremicists, America is A Chritian Country people and many other Christian AMERICAN groups are on the move with the love of Jesus in their eyes. The Southern Baptists spend tens of millions a year to proselitize the Jewish people and steal the souls of the children of Israel.

The Jewish people have been the scapegoat and crucified people for centuries. American freedoms and rights exist as long as their is no great attacks or financial disasters in this great land of liberty. Then like always will be those Jews who are responsible for all the evils of the earth.

At least this time, when the troopers coming storming into our homes to kill and maime, we have our ancesteral homeland instead of being led to our deaths like the lambs.

Don't kid yourself into believing that it cannot happen here in the USA. Those who forget history are doomed to relive it.

 

[khayri11]

Originally posted by Comrade
I'm not entirely sure we can seperate religion and politics with respect to Islam.

The fact is, since the inception of Islam those under it's rule have NEVER had leaders who practiced politics outside of the religious domain of Islam itself.

How is it that the West has developed into modern democracies while most of the traditional Islamic world is locked into a cycle tyrannical rule by edict, religious mandate, or simple thuggery?

The passage offered here by skhaldi does little to offset my overall perspective of Islam with respect to other passages which offer little prospect of true acceptance of others among their theocratic rule.

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."
Surah 60 Verse 08"

It's permissible to to respect infidels but only if conditions are so and so. Not that Allah commands you to respect us, it's just optional.

Quoting verses in detail leads me to understand exactly what Allah demands in the text of his believers. Quite the opposite of being allowed certain niceties of civilization the mandate of the religion speaks for itself.

Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate
enemies" (Sura 4:101)

Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere"
(Sura 9:5)

They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill
them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly"
(Sura 4:90).

"Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193).

"Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12). -
If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39).

He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat
of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him"
(Sura 22:78)

Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them
(Sura 9:123).

Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.
[al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).

Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another
religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet
cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above
their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should
be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33) -

Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

And Speaking of Paradise... "There will be "gushing fountains" and everyone
"shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on
them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine." Suras
(or chapters) 55 and 56 of the Quran.

"Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched
before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies," Sura 55. A few lines
later, you might remind them of "virgins chaste and fair ... they shall
recline on green cushions and fine carpets."

"The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are
80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with
pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a
Damascus suburb] to Sana'a.'" It will be the day, God willing, you spend
with the women of paradise...Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting
for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling
out, "Come hither, friend of God."




Okay, now prove me wrong. [/B]

 

[khayri11]

Originally posted by Comrade
I'm not entirely sure we can seperate religion and politics with respect to Islam.

The fact is, since the inception of Islam those under it's rule have NEVER had leaders who practiced politics outside of the religious domain of Islam itself.

How is it that the West has developed into modern democracies while most of the traditional Islamic world is locked into a cycle tyrannical rule by edict, religious mandate, or simple thuggery?

The passage offered here by skhaldi does little to offset my overall perspective of Islam with respect to other passages which offer little prospect of true acceptance of others among their theocratic rule.

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."
Surah 60 Verse 08"

It's permissible to to respect infidels but only if conditions are so and so. Not that Allah commands you to respect us, it's just optional.

Quoting verses in detail leads me to understand exactly what Allah demands in the text of his believers. Quite the opposite of being allowed certain niceties of civilization the mandate of the religion speaks for itself.

Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim's "inveterate
enemies" (Sura 4:101)

Muslims are to "arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere"
(Sura 9:5)

They are to "seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill
them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly"
(Sura 4:90).

"Fight them until Islam reigns supreme" (Sura 2:193).

"Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12). -
If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39).

He is to be told, "the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat
of Hell-fire" (Sura 9:81).

A Muslim must "fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him"
(Sura 22:78)

Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them
(Sura 9:123).

Muslims are to be "ruthless to unbelievers" (Sura 48:29).

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends.
[al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]

A Muslim should "enjoy the good things" he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a "just cause" (Sura 6:152).

Allah loves those who "fight for his cause" (Sura 61:3).

Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another
religion shall be "put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet
cut off alternative sides" (Sura 5:34).

Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above
their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should
be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33) -

Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

And Speaking of Paradise... "There will be "gushing fountains" and everyone
"shall recline on jeweled couches face to face, and there shall wait on
them immortal youths with bowls and ewers and a cup of purest wine." Suras
(or chapters) 55 and 56 of the Quran.

"Therein are bashful virgins whom neither man nor jinnee will have touched
before ... virgins as fair as corals and rubies," Sura 55. A few lines
later, you might remind them of "virgins chaste and fair ... they shall
recline on green cushions and fine carpets."

"The smallest reward for the people of Paradise is an abode where there are
80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with
pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a
Damascus suburb] to Sana'a.'" It will be the day, God willing, you spend
with the women of paradise...Know that the gardens of paradise are waiting
for you in all their beauty, and the women of paradise are waiting, calling
out, "Come hither, friend of God."




Okay, now prove me wrong. [/B]

I find it interesting that you are doing what the terrorists do - taking quotes out of context, mistranslating them, with no historical references at all. The Qur'an is not the Bible. It is not linear. Every verse (ayat) in the Qur'an was revealed to address a situation or issue that Muhammad (saw) was confronted with AT THE TIME.

Now, let me prove you wrong as you have challenged.

"When ye travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you shorten your prayer, for fear the Unbelievers (kafirun) may attack you: for the Unbelievers are to you open enemies." (Qur'an 4:101).

This verse was revealed to Muhammad (saw) during time of war against his enemies giving him permission to shorten their prayers and be vigilant. Common sense says you should kill your enemies in war. Every nation seeks out its enemies kills them. We're hunting terrorists right now - not to hug them but to destroy them. (Personally I think America's legal system will keep us from destroying the terrorists them way they should be. Instead, they're sitting in Abu Grayb and Guantanamo Bay eating up our tax dollars.)

So, I stipulate that the verses that say Muslims should basically destroy their enemies is close to the truth.


"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in this world and the next." (Qur'an 5:33)

This is not a "turn the other cheek" religion but neither is it a warmongers haven. A Muslim cannot legally (according to the Qur'an, Ahadith, tradition and concensus) initiate a war. The Muslim must be attacked first. The war allowed to Muslims is jihad (for the freedom of religion.) Muslim are commanded to respect the people of the book (Bible).

When bin Laden gave those orders to commit the attrocities of September 11 he gave those orders to zealots who believed more in his words than they did in Islam. That is why they were up the nights before drinking and whoring - bin Laden said it was alright for them to sin and transgress because they were doing "God's work" and all their would be forgiven. Now if they read the Qur'an they know Allah has allowed aggression people who have done you know wrong.

Terrorists are terrorists. What difference does it make if they say they're Muslims, Christians or Jews. The actions say their terrorists.... And let's face it many Muslims in the middle east are not literate. Easy prey for some half-assed shaikh to come along and say America and Israel is the cause of your suffering. They're ignorant. They don't know that America protected Saudi Arabia and Quwait; stablized Liberia (62% Muslim) and Bosnia (84 % Muslim) from civil war; tried to feed Somalia (89 % Muslim); is pushing for a Palestinian state; is a stauch ally of Pakistan and Turkey. They don't know this because they're not literate.

So, I say to all those who believes Islam is a religion of fanatics and terrorists, I say it is simply not true. I wish Muslim leaders would begin pushing for more time on the media outlets and condemn al-Qaida and rest of these gangsters parading as religious warriors.

 

[NewGuy]

Do you have any idea how rediculously stupid it is to claim the koran can mean anything at any time because it is non-liniar and then claim terrorists take it out of context?

I suppose the only sure fire way into paradise is a variable as well?

How about the majority of the muslim world disagreeing with your perspective?

How about HISTORY disagreeing?

How about the fact I and at least 3 others have proven your entire perspective totally wrong with your own text?

How about the admissions by other muslims and my own quoting of text showing muslims may lie for their own gain?

What about killing for getting away from oppression?

Your entire post is irrelevant and wrong.

 

[Mustafa]

Originally posted by khayri11

Now, let me prove you wrong as you have challenged.

..... Common sense says you should kill your enemies in war. Every nation seeks out its enemies kills them. We're hunting terrorists right now - not to hug them but to destroy them. (Personally I think America's legal system will keep us from destroying the terrorists them way they should be. Instead, they're sitting in Abu Grayb and Guantanamo Bay eating up our tax dollars.)

So, I stipulate that the verses that say Muslims should basically destroy their enemies is close to the truth......

Then by the Qur'an (not a bible you say) and the word of Allah, the enemies of the believers (the infidels) also have a right to destroy Islam and all its believers. This to save the world from a 7th century religion of hate and murder and pedophilia.

The way to end Islam once and for all is to destroy Mecca, Medina, the black stone of Allah and the Kaba'h with fire from the sky. The USA has way to much nuclear waste and we don't know where to place it so that humans are not harmed. Mecca seems a perfect repository for tons of fissionable waste.

Without Mecca the Islamite would have a little difficulty getting to Muhammad and his paradise.

Don't you agree????

 

[khayri11]

First, I am a Muslim and I was born and raised right here in America - I talk the talk and walk the walk.

Secondly, this book (the Qur'an) was revealed in Arabic not English. The proper transliteration of a work must naturally be done with a historical perspective (otherwise any idiot can run around making claims that are distortions.)

There are scholars who study for years to elicit the knowledge in this book but, of course, you know what it means just by openning it. God told the Israelites in the Bible to wipe out at least four tribes I can recall - men, women, children, livestock, and trees! Are you idiotic enough to think that applies to these times?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by khayri11
Secondly, this book (the Qur'an) was revealed in Arabic not English. The proper transliteration of a work must naturally be done with a historical perspective (otherwise any idiot can run around making claims that are distortions.)

When someone says that, it is because they are lying.

Anyone who knows more than 1 language knows anything can be translated without requiring historical perspective if taken in context.

You just failed to make a valid point.

There are scholars who study for years to elicit the knowledge in this book but, of course, you know what it means just by openning it.

You claim to know?
Why follow something you don't know?
Why claim even scholars can't learn it but you can?
You are totally false here too.

God told the Israelites in the Bible to wipe out at least four tribes I can recall - men, women, children, livestock, and trees! Are you idiotic enough to think that applies to these times?

Point to your reference then. -That way we can educate you because you are nowhere near proper in your comparison.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by khayri11

First, I am a Muslim and I was born and raised right here in America - I talk the talk and walk the walk.

So you talk the talk and you think you can read the Qur'an in the Arabic of Muhammad. You are the one who makes comments on something that you cannot read. Allah will punish you for your blasphemy.

Secondly, this book (the Qur'an) was revealed in Arabic not English. The proper transliteration of a work must naturally be done with a historical perspective (otherwise any idiot can run around making claims that are distortions.)

Looks exactly like you run around making claims and distortions about something you have no ability to read in Arabic.

There are scholars who study for years to elicit the knowledge in this book but, of course, you know what it means just by openning it. God told the Israelites in the Bible to wipe out at least four tribes I can recall - men, women, children, livestock, and trees! Are you idiotic enough to think that applies to these times?

How would you know anything about what G-d told the Israelites as you can't read biblical Hebrew either.

You listen to your Mullah's and their Al-Taqiyya (dissemelation) or lies of Islam.

As one who can read both biblical Hebrew and Arabic, I can tell that the G-d of the Hebrews (not Israelites) told Aaron to destroy those evil inhabitants of the land of Canaan who believed in moon-idols that threw their own children into the fires of their god Molach (Allah) in order to pacify their idol god Molach and get to his paradise.

And yes the parallels are exactly the same. The Arabs (Muslims) put their children into the fire to propitiate Allah in order for these little Muslims to have 72 black eyed virgins and have sinless sex with little boys (like pearls).

Learn to read Qur'an in the words written by Muhammad's friends, as Muhammad was an illiterate. He couldn't write his own name but he could murder and have sex with his new six year old wife.

 

[sweetbilly]

awjps, i have offten found that when muslims get backed into a corner, concerning their religion, they offten use the excuse that there's no translation for it in English. What, did Allah make some kind of special language for muslims, isn't a dog in Islam a dog in China, or America too. Is there something on the earth that muslims have a word for that other people don't. Face it, Muhammad was a brutle leader that meant everything he said in the Qur'an, he was a practitioner of murder, rape, child molestation, (the product of what he taught). Subsequently, what would make a person think that he was the chosen reciepient of gods word when he is the example of pure evil? Islam never seases to astonish me.

 

[sweetbilly]

Ok mustafa, are you trying to say that you have the authority to kill whom ever you believe to be the enemy of God? Because if this is what you are saying, you have completely missed the point in the bible; and is not so ironically missing in the Qur'an. First, Jesus was God in carnate, so the choice to take life or give life is solely his (yes Godhead). Second, Yes God did give man the choice to choose between Good and evil, but the original sin that caused man to fall out of grace with God was thinking we can in anyway be like God (making decisions about who is evil who gets life Etc...like Islam feels God allows them to make) To suggest that man can in anyway be like God is aubsured, yet, In most of the Islamic nations they feel that they are absolutely correct in thinking that christians/Jews are the enemy of God (because of the teachings in the Qur'an, which are not the teachings of God). And finally, being saved is not about what a person does in life "all have fallen short of the glory of God", it's about who you are with Satan/God, that's the reason why jesus was sent to save us (so we could have an image by which we could make the choice when antichrist comes, plus he was the blood sacrifice required for sin which is the reason he was the seed of God and the egg of woman, still man making the sacrifice to God) We were all headed to hell, and if you think you can do something to earn your way to God you are quite mistaken. Christians know they are right in their translation of the bible because of things like astronomy, archeology, fulfilled prophecys found only the bible, geology, and i'm not talking main stream science either, they don't know what's real either (they believe in evolution). I'm talking about stuff based solely on litteral biblical translations. Like check this out www.Pinkosi.com pay attention to the "red sea post", how could stuff this exist if it never happened? It surely wasn't a jewish conspiracy, and it follows christain biblical texts to the T. So which book do you think is correct, Islam/Qur'an that can't provide things like this, or Christianity/bible that can. I never thought it was a hard decision to make myself.

 

[Comrade]

Originally posted by khayri11
I find it interesting that you are doing what the terrorists do - taking quotes out of context, mistranslating them, with no historical references at all.

I realize you feel defensive, and understand you personally have distinct beliefs about Islam apart from the terrorists. But you should consider your knee-jerk reaction to myself quoting directly from your own translated English teachings.

If these are not the accurate translations, that is one thing, please correct them.

I have merely quoted directly from your own religious text, yet you compare me to an Islamic terrorist who in actuality is carrying out mass murder in the name of Islam?

All I am doing is pointing text out to you.

YOU are in DENIAL of your own text.

The Qur'an is not the Bible. It is not linear. Every verse (ayat) in the Qur'an was revealed to address a situation or issue that Muhammad (saw) was confronted with AT THE TIME.

So when exactly is A GOOD TIME to:

‘Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and
besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.’ (Koran 9:5)

"Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers" (Sura 8:12). -
If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39).

"Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill
them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly"
(Sura 4:90).

"When ye travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you shorten your prayer, for fear the Unbelievers (kafirun) may attack you: for the Unbelievers are to you open enemies." (Qur'an 4:101).


When are such righteous acts of mass murder required from Muslims?


What do your scholars say?


As long as Dar Al-Harb exists.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam


“Dar al-Harb (Arabic: house of war) is a term used in many Islamic countries to refer to those areas outside Muslim rule. In some conservative traditions of Islam the world is divided into two components: dar al-Islam, the house of submission or the house of God, and dar al-Harb, the house of war; the home of the infidels or unbelievers (Arabic: kufr). The terms are usually understood to refer, respectively, to those lands currently administered by Muslim governments and those administered by non-Muslim governments. The exact definitions of these territories can vary widely according to the viewer's concept of who is and is not a Muslim, and which governments are or are not Muslim in practice. “


I mean you blame me for being out of context, but where is your refutation?

Where within your actual text is Jihad inconsistent with waging war against infidels, Dar Al-Harb, the house of war, at odds with Wahabbi or Shi'ite Islam fundamentalism from its source in Saudi Arabia or Iran today?

This verse was revealed to Muhammad (saw) during time of war against his enemies giving him permission to shorten their prayers and be vigilant. Common sense says you should kill your enemies in war. Every nation seeks out its enemies kills them. We're hunting terrorists right now - not to hug them but to destroy them. (Personally I think America's legal system will keep us from destroying the terrorists them way they should be. Instead, they're sitting in Abu Grayb and Guantanamo Bay eating up our tax dollars.)

Which verse? I’ve quoted scores from all throughout the Islamic
writings, all violently opposed to Dar Al-Harb.


Which exact verse excuses violent slaughter and toture en-masse in the name of your religion?


In which circumstance is this behavior condoned, and why would this EVER be justified?

So, I stipulate that the verses that say Muslims should basically destroy their enemies is close to the truth.

Any land administered by a non-Muslim government, is Dar Al-Harb, and is the ENEMY OF ISLAM. Any concession to Dar Al-Harb is always a temporary concession with respect to establishing Dar Al-Islam over the Earth.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in this world and the next." (Qur'an 5:33)

So what the heck does this prove? If the text I quote is translated correctly you obviously better shape up and prove you will fight and die for Islam, if you are a true Muslim.

This is not a "turn the other cheek" religion but neither is it a warmongers haven. A Muslim cannot legally (according to the Qur'an, Ahadith, tradition and concensus) initiate a war. The Muslim must be attacked first. The war allowed to Muslims is jihad (for the freedom of religion.) Muslim are commanded to respect the people of the book (Bible).

Well as long as you have no quoted text, I’ll humor this interpretation.

So while Islam today, wherever a majority of Muslims live, totally snuffs out all other religious and political freedoms you entertain the fantasy of some sort of justice for waging war against the “suppression” of Islam.

In the West today freedom of religion actually exists in reality, yet within Dar Al-Islam we are labeled an enemy of Islam by virtually ALL leading Mullahs preaching from their own oppressive Islamic state. I find this hypocrisy unbearable.

When bin Laden gave those orders to commit the attrocities of September 11 he gave those orders to zealots who believed more in his words than they did in Islam. That is why they were up the nights before drinking and whoring - bin Laden said it was alright for them to sin and transgress because they were doing "God's work" and all their would be forgiven. Now if they read the Qur'an they know Allah has allowed aggression people who have done you know wrong.

I don’t think that last sentence makes sense. You should stick to quoting your text and stop trying to justify some fantasy of Islam which only exists in the Western world.

Honestly, you expect me to believe the attacks on the West are unjustified according to Islam, while the religious leaders and the vast of majority of it’s followers fail to even vocally condemn, time and time again, the terrorist attacks conducted in their name.

Let alone actually act to suppress it’s own extremist element.

Terrorists are terrorists. What difference does it make if they say they're Muslims, Christians or Jews. The actions say their terrorists....

True enough, and the numbers say Muslims are by and large the one religion which has failed to curtail their murderous and oppressive tendencies. And fail time and again to establish secular liberalism as a force for peaceful co-existence among themselves.

And let's face it many Muslims in the middle east are not literate. Easy prey for some half-assed shaikh to come along and say America and Israel is the cause of your suffering. They're ignorant. They don't know that America protected Saudi Arabia and Quwait; stablized Liberia (62% Muslim) and Bosnia (84 % Muslim) from civil war; tried to feed Somalia (89 % Muslim); is pushing for a Palestinian state; is a stauch ally of Pakistan and Turkey. They don't know this because they're not literate.

And yet you ignore the highly educated leadership of Islamic faith who know exactly what they are doing, and continue to incite hostility against liberal democracy. If you excuse the gullible masses for being misled by the leaders of Islam and their own unrelenting call for Jihad against the west, where exactly does the peaceful version of Islam you describe exist? In the West?

So, I say to all those who believes Islam is a religion of fanatics and terrorists, I say it is simply not true. I wish Muslim leaders would begin pushing for more time on the media outlets and condemn al-Qaida and rest of these gangsters parading as religious warriors.

Yet they do not. That’s my point. I don’t believe you can challenge my quoted text with personal opinions without also quoting text.

And when you justify the basis of your religion from the perspective of a Westerner raised under a secular liberal society, you would do well to pay attention to the vast majority of Islam as it exists today, and then reconsider how much Western culture has distinguished your point of view from this core ideology.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

Ok mustafa, are you trying to say that you have the authority to kill whom ever you believe to be the enemy of God?

No I am saying that it is a sin to kill anyone in the name of G-d. More humans have been killed in the name of one god or another than any form of dictatorship, government, crusade or conversion of others from their own religions.

Because if this is what you are saying, you have completely missed the point in the bible; and is not so ironically missing in the Qur'an. First, Jesus was God in carnate, so the choice to take life or give life is solely his (yes Godhead).

What proof have you that Jesus was a god incarnate (in the flesh) or any one part of a god-head? Don't tell me because St. Paul told you so....

Second, Yes God did give man the choice to choose between Good and evil, but the original sin that caused man to fall out of grace with God was thinking we can in anyway be like God (making decisions about who is evil who gets life Etc...like Islam feels God allows them to make) To suggest that man can in anyway be like God is aubsured, yet, In most of the Islamic nations they feel that they are absolutely correct in thinking that christians/Jews are the enemy of God (because of the teachings in the Qur'an, which are not the teachings of God).

Why would your concept of original sin (the eating of the forbidden apple) which gave Adam and Eve's an understanding that they were naked and ashamed somehow be passed on as a sinful nature to all generations. This concept of original sin is a Christian concept and not one in which the original bible (Old Testament) condemns all mankind to a helpless sin nature. Men and women suffer the outcome by working by the sweat of their brows and the pain of childbirth. But men and women are born sinless while each person has the ability to choose their path between good and evil. As for Qur'an, a bible written by an illiterate used camel salesman, was a barbarian pedophile.

You have accepted Jesus as your savior and the one who gives you freedom from any sins you may commit and that is your right. But your belief has no more validity to G-d than the sun-gods of the Incas.

And finally, being saved is not about what a person does in life "all have fallen short of the glory of God", it's about who you are with Satan/God, that's the reason why jesus was sent to save us (so we could have an image by which we could make the choice when antichrist comes, plus he was the blood sacrifice required for sin which is the reason he was the seed of God and the egg of woman, still man making the sacrifice to God)

First, I do not follow the evil beliefs of Islam as any thinking person can see the true meaning of Muhammad's contorted bible. You believe in a god that is from the egg of a woman and the seed of a ghost (or a man named Joseph). You may have fallen short of Jesus's glory but the G-d who created everything and this universe has no relatives or alter egos. A G-d that no one can see as He has no substance, no measurements and can't be understood by human intellect. You have a god-man Jesus who lived on earth, breathed the air, defecated, urinated, killed innocent fig trees and beat up the men who were selling animals for sacrifice to those who had no sacrificial animals of their own.

No blood sacrifice or killing of your son is necessary for man to save himself by living a life of mercy, justice and walking in the path of G-d. Adolph Eichmann in 1961 was tried for being responsible for the death of millions of Jews and gentiles. He was asked by his judges if he wanted to make peace with his maker. He accepted Jesus Christ's shed blood from a minister and the minister said after his death that this mass murderer was now living with Jesus in his mansions in the sky. When the press asked the minister about the millions of men, women and children who were murdered by this man who had not accepted Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the minister simply replied, "Oh these innocents are burning in hell." So the mass murderer lives with your god and those who believed in the father (G-d) are burning in hell for not accepting the son (god-head) Jesus. NICE.....

We were all headed to hell, and if you think you can do something to earn your way to God you are quite mistaken.

Speak for yourself.....

Christians know they are right in their translation of the bible because of things like astronomy, archeology, fulfilled prophecys found only the bible, geology, and i'm not talking main stream science either, they don't know what's real either (they believe in evolution). I'm talking about stuff based solely on litteral biblical translations. Like check this out www.Pinkosi.com pay attention to the "red sea post", how could stuff this exist if it never happened? It surely wasn't a jewish conspiracy, and it follows christain biblical texts to the T.

Really??? Apparently you are not aware that the Dead Sea Scrolls of 2000 years ago didn't mention Jesus name one time nor did they have one mention of replacement theology where the Jewish people were replaced by a god called Jesus. There is not one single archeological proof of a man who lived by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth except in the works of the pagan Constantine and his Nicine Council some three hundred years after the so called crucifixion of Christ. Read about the orignal pagan Roman religion of Mythra and there you will find the same concepts of original sin, a god coming to earth to impregnate an earth woman, a saving son who was killed and rose, etc, etc. etc.

Christianity appears to have been borrowed from the earlier pagan religions, the gnostic and mystery religions that existed before Christianity. Take a note that the original Old Testament is part of your bible and somehow, maybe by chance or copying, many of the concepts and events seem to have happened with Jesus and his time a thousand or more years later. I can copy a bible and make a new one as well.

So which book do you think is correct, Islam/Qur'an that can't provide things like this, or Christianity/bible that can. I never thought it was a hard decision to make myself.

Neither can be proved by any evidence except in the light of history of these two religions. You will eventually learn how hard that decision was for you to make yourself.