Is Violence Against Women EVER Justified?

[TrinityPower]

Most men I know are taught to respect women. A man can walk away but some women follow and do not respect that and follow them to provoke the matter more. If they are warned hey leave me alone to cool off and do not respect that then they get what they get. To me it comes down sometimes to a woman not respecting boundaries. Admittedly I myself have not wanted to let a matter go many times before but I have respected the other party involved if they say hey we need to take this up later when I am not so riled up.

 

[TrinityPower]

I also think much of the violence spoken of the violence referred to had a substance involved and that accounts for much wrong action taken. That is not always the case mind you but I bet it is a good percentage of the time

 

[BluePhantom]

Most men I know are taught to respect women. A man can walk away but some women follow and do not respect that and follow them to provoke the matter more. If they are warned hey leave me alone to cool off and do not respect that then they get what they get. To me it comes down sometimes to a woman not respecting boundaries. Admittedly I myself have not wanted to let a matter go many times before but I have respected the other party involved if they say hey we need to take this up later when I am not so riled up.

I agree....most men are indeed taught to respect women...to walk away. To avoid a potentially violent situation. Aren't there some women though who know that and take advantage of it? The question I posed to Cecilie is a perfect example. I believe that the women in the last two examples felt that they could say or do anything they wanted to the guys they were messing with and get away with it completely because "there's nothing the guy can do about it". I would argue that it's a form of bullying. I will say this much....none of the women I listed in my examples will ever try that shit again with anyone.

 

[KevinWestern]

So I was having a discussion with the wife about if and when it is ever ok for a man to hit a women. Now the stereotypical answer is “never”. But is that really realistic? Let me toss out some scenarios where a man hit a women. Each of these I have personally witnessed (no I wasn’t the one doing the hitting) and in each case I felt the girl got exactly what she deserved.

Example 1: A buddy of mine had a girlfriend who made no secret that in her opinion she could hit him as much as she wanted because the moment he dared to hit back he would go to jail instead of her and no court would ever convict a woman of being abusive toward a man. I mean she actually bragged about it. She beat on that guy like a drum constantly until one day he finally had enough and “returned the treatment”. (Note: He would have simply left her but they had a child together and he couldn’t leave the child with an abusive woman until he could prove in court she was abusive – eventually that did happen.)

Example 2: To make a long story short, a beautiful woman stole our table at a crowded bar. My brother asked her politely to leave several times and offered to buy her a drink if she would depart. She refused every time told him “beautiful women only take orders when they feel like it so there’s not much you can do about it is there?” and then she blew smoke in his face. He asked her to leave again and warned her that if she blew smoke in his face again he would punch her dead in the face. She said “oh really? I dare you”, leaned directly into his face and exhaled a cloud of smoke around my brothers head….he broke her nose.

Example 3: A woman stood behind her boyfriend screaming at this other guy calling him every name in the book, making reference to his questionable parentage…I mean you name it and she said it. Her boyfriend stood between them and although he wasn’t being aggressive toward the other guy neither was he telling his girlfriend to shut the hell up either. Finally her boyfriend said “you will have to go through me first to shut her up”. The guy said “I accept your terms” and after he beat the shit out of her boyfriend he walked up to the women and punched her dead in the mouth and told her “you got your boyfriends ass kicked you should share his pain.”

Now as I said…..these were thing I witnessed where I said to myself “normally I would never endorse violence of any kind let alone against women…..but in this case….the ***** was begging for it.”

I welcome thoughts.

Very interesting post.

Personally, I don’t think in any of those scenarios it was acceptable for the male to administer violent force against the female. However, I want to point out that this is less based on the sex of those in the examples, and more so based on my personal opinion that violence is largely unacceptable in 99% of all non-life, non-injury threatening situations.

Break her nose because she blew smoke in his face, or beat up a man and woman because they’re calling you names? A bit childish - don't you think? Guy getting beat up and doesn't like it? He should tell the girlfriend to stop. If she doesn't, he should leave the relationship (no reason to be in it).

But in a scenario where a woman was attacking either me or my family in a threatening way? I would have no problem using (reasonable) physical/violent force in the spirit of self-defense. I see nothing wrong with defending yourself against anyone - man or woman.

Not sure what that adds here, but those are just my thoughts.

 

[williepete]

I once had an instructor who told our class he knew his fourth marriage was in trouble when he heard himself say, "Honey, put down the knife or I'll blow your head off".

Years later I found out it wasn't a joke. She threw the knife. It stuck in the wall next to his head.

Don't just walk away from those types, run.

 

[BDBoop]

So I was having a discussion with the wife about if and when it is ever ok for a man to hit a women. Now the stereotypical answer is “never”. But is that really realistic? Let me toss out some scenarios where a man hit a women. Each of these I have personally witnessed (no I wasn’t the one doing the hitting) and in each case I felt the girl got exactly what she deserved.

Example 1: A buddy of mine had a girlfriend who made no secret that in her opinion she could hit him as much as she wanted because the moment he dared to hit back he would go to jail instead of her and no court would ever convict a woman of being abusive toward a man. I mean she actually bragged about it. She beat on that guy like a drum constantly until one day he finally had enough and “returned the treatment”. (Note: He would have simply left her but they had a child together and he couldn’t leave the child with an abusive woman until he could prove in court she was abusive – eventually that did happen.)

Example 2: To make a long story short, a beautiful woman stole our table at a crowded bar. My brother asked her politely to leave several times and offered to buy her a drink if she would depart. She refused every time told him “beautiful women only take orders when they feel like it so there’s not much you can do about it is there?” and then she blew smoke in his face. He asked her to leave again and warned her that if she blew smoke in his face again he would punch her dead in the face. She said “oh really? I dare you”, leaned directly into his face and exhaled a cloud of smoke around my brothers head….he broke her nose.

Example 3: A woman stood behind her boyfriend screaming at this other guy calling him every name in the book, making reference to his questionable parentage…I mean you name it and she said it. Her boyfriend stood between them and although he wasn’t being aggressive toward the other guy neither was he telling his girlfriend to shut the hell up either. Finally her boyfriend said “you will have to go through me first to shut her up”. The guy said “I accept your terms” and after he beat the shit out of her boyfriend he walked up to the women and punched her dead in the mouth and told her “you got your boyfriends ass kicked you should share his pain.”

Now as I said…..these were thing I witnessed where I said to myself “normally I would never endorse violence of any kind let alone against women…..but in this case….the ***** was begging for it.”

I welcome thoughts.

Are they doing this crap sober!!?

 

[BDBoop]

Most men I know are taught to respect women. A man can walk away but some women follow and do not respect that and follow them to provoke the matter more. If they are warned hey leave me alone to cool off and do not respect that then they get what they get. To me it comes down sometimes to a woman not respecting boundaries. Admittedly I myself have not wanted to let a matter go many times before but I have respected the other party involved if they say hey we need to take this up later when I am not so riled up.

I agree....most men are indeed taught to respect women...to walk away. To avoid a potentially violent situation. Aren't there some women though who know that and take advantage of it? The question I posed to Cecilie is a perfect example. I believe that the women in the last two examples felt that they could say or do anything they wanted to the guys they were messing with and get away with it completely because "there's nothing the guy can do about it". I would argue that it's a form of bullying. I will say this much....none of the women I listed in my examples will ever try that shit again with anyone.

I told my daughter early on that no man ever better raise an unkind hand to her. But if she raised it first? All bets were off.

 

[BluePhantom]

Very interesting post.

Personally, I don’t think in any of those scenarios it was acceptable for the male to administer violent force against the female. However, I want to point out that this is less based on the sex of those in the examples, and more so based on my personal opinion that violence is largely unacceptable in 99% of all non-life, non-injury threatening situations.

Break her nose because she blew smoke in his face, or beat up a man and woman because they’re calling you names? A bit childish - don't you think? Guy getting beat up and doesn't like it? He should tell the girlfriend to stop. If she doesn't, he should leave the relationship (no reason to be in it).

But in a scenario where a woman was attacking either me or my family in a threatening way? I would have no problem using (reasonable) physical/violent force in the spirit of self-defense. I see nothing wrong with defending yourself against anyone - man or woman.

Not sure what that adds here, but those are just my thoughts.

Personally I think you hit the obvious point on the nose. I think (just my personal opinion) that if someone is attacked, they have the right to defend themselves with force. But there's an underlying point that is starting to develop and I made reference to it in my last post.

Aren't these examples all forms of bullying? Now they are not traditional bullying in the way we think of it on the playground, but isn't it really the same concept? In these examples the women are (at least in my view) using their gender to bully the men.

Now I will tell you. I am not the biggest guy in the world and I got picked on a lot as a kid. I realized I had two options: a) take my whupping / run away; or b) learn how to fight. I chose option B and despite my size I can handle myself very well. But the bullying didn't stop until I forced the bullies to do so and that meant I finally had to kick their ass.

Now a couple of sub-points: 1) yes I felt an overwhelming sense of vindication, revenge, power, etc at a primal level but beating up the kid who had been beating me up the last year also taught him a lesson and it taught me a lesson about standing up for yourself. 2) Had I not gone to that level I am 100% convinced that I would have no confidence as an adult and had no one beat that bully's ass he would probably be a "boardroom bully" to this day.

So I would argue that sometimes violence is the answer. Sometimes, violence is the right thing to do. It's rare that I feel it's justified...but sometimes I feel it is.

Now fast forward to these examples. If you accept that these women were in fact engaging in a form of bullying when will it stop? Well it will stop the same way it did for me as a child. It stopped when I learned to fight and put an end to it myself. I have thought many times over the years....those women who got hammered those nights....perhaps it was a lesson well learned.

 

[BluePhantom]

Are they doing this crap sober!!?

Only in example #1. Alcohol was definitely involved in the other two.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The only time physical violence against a woman is acceptable is more or less the same time that physical violence against a man is acceptable: when she's dangerous to you and you can't get away.

And I would generally agree. I would agree that in the last two examples the smart thing to do would have been to walk away....but I have pondered this over the years. All three follow the same theme. In the first example we had a woman being abusive because she thought she could get away with it because "she was a woman and he was a man"......isn't that the same thing in the other two examples as well? Weren't the women in the other two examples taking advantage of the fact that they were women in order to "bully" men?

Granted, society seems to have lost half the inherent social contract, in which it teaches men to protect and care for women, rather than abusing them, and teaches women that they should behave as ladies. It doesn't work if you allow women to expect to be treated as ladies, but to behave like trash.

Nevertheless, we are all responsible for our own behavior, and just because others are uncivilized does not make it okay to join them. Physical assault on another person isn't justified, except in self-defense.

 

[Avatar4321]

if they are trying to kill you, I dont see why it wouldnt be

 

[TrinityPower]

The only time physical violence against a woman is acceptable is more or less the same time that physical violence against a man is acceptable: when she's dangerous to you and you can't get away.

And I would generally agree. I would agree that in the last two examples the smart thing to do would have been to walk away....but I have pondered this over the years. All three follow the same theme. In the first example we had a woman being abusive because she thought she could get away with it because "she was a woman and he was a man"......isn't that the same thing in the other two examples as well? Weren't the women in the other two examples taking advantage of the fact that they were women in order to "bully" men?

Granted, society seems to have lost half the inherent social contract, in which it teaches men to protect and care for women, rather than abusing them, and teaches women that they should behave as ladies. It doesn't work if you allow women to expect to be treated as ladies, but to behave like trash.

Nevertheless, we are all responsible for our own behavior, and just because others are uncivilized does not make it okay to join them. Physical assault on another person isn't justified, except in self-defense.

The bad thing is that many women are not taught and shown how to conduct themselves as ladies...that is a key concept to many situations especially those listed as scenarios in this thread

 

[BluePhantom]

The only time physical violence against a woman is acceptable is more or less the same time that physical violence against a man is acceptable: when she's dangerous to you and you can't get away.

And I would generally agree. I would agree that in the last two examples the smart thing to do would have been to walk away....but I have pondered this over the years. All three follow the same theme. In the first example we had a woman being abusive because she thought she could get away with it because "she was a woman and he was a man"......isn't that the same thing in the other two examples as well? Weren't the women in the other two examples taking advantage of the fact that they were women in order to "bully" men?

Granted, society seems to have lost half the inherent social contract, in which it teaches men to protect and care for women, rather than abusing them, and teaches women that they should behave as ladies. It doesn't work if you allow women to expect to be treated as ladies, but to behave like trash.

Nevertheless, we are all responsible for our own behavior, and just because others are uncivilized does not make it okay to join them. Physical assault on another person isn't justified, except in self-defense.

I can respect that. Don't get wrong. I don't think the men in examples 2 and 3 were necessarily "justified" in hitting those women. Actually I don't think they were (and keep in mind one of them was my brother). I actually think all sides were "wrong" in those situations. But as much as I feel the men probably should have just bagged it and walked away, I do have to admit to myself that the women were just begging for it.

In my reflections of those events over the years I have come to believe that it almost certainly wasn't the first time those women had pulled that and up until that night they had gotten away with it. On the nights in question they ran into someone that called their bullshit. So I think to myself: "ok it may not have been justified for those men to hit those women BUT they were begging for it and that night they were unlucky enough to run into someone who didn't play the game they were used to playing. Perhaps they learned a valuable lesson the hard way."

Wouldn't you agree that's a reasonable way to look at it? I mean look at my signature....that's a great example of me learning some basic respect in a very painful and expensive manner.

 

[Cecilie1200]

And I would generally agree. I would agree that in the last two examples the smart thing to do would have been to walk away....but I have pondered this over the years. All three follow the same theme. In the first example we had a woman being abusive because she thought she could get away with it because "she was a woman and he was a man"......isn't that the same thing in the other two examples as well? Weren't the women in the other two examples taking advantage of the fact that they were women in order to "bully" men?

Granted, society seems to have lost half the inherent social contract, in which it teaches men to protect and care for women, rather than abusing them, and teaches women that they should behave as ladies. It doesn't work if you allow women to expect to be treated as ladies, but to behave like trash.

Nevertheless, we are all responsible for our own behavior, and just because others are uncivilized does not make it okay to join them. Physical assault on another person isn't justified, except in self-defense.

I can respect that. Don't get wrong. I don't think the men in examples 2 and 3 were necessarily "justified" in hitting those women. Actually I don't think they were (and keep in mind one of them was my brother). I actually think all sides were "wrong" in those situations. But as much as I feel the men probably should have just bagged it and walked away, I do have to admit to myself that the women were just begging for it.

In my reflections of those events over the years I have come to believe that it almost certainly wasn't the first time those women had pulled that and up until that night they had gotten away with it. On the nights in question they ran into someone that called their bullshit. So I think to myself: "ok it may not have been justified for those men to hit those women BUT they were begging for it and that night they were unlucky enough to run into someone who didn't play the game they were used to playing. Perhaps they learned a valuable lesson the hard way."

Wouldn't you agree that's a reasonable way to look at it? I mean look at my signature....that's a great example of me learning some basic respect in a very painful and expensive manner.

I'm not saying that those women weren't begging for it, nor do I feel at all sorry for them for getting it. Do I think they learned a lesson? No, not really, other than to perhaps bully people even less likely to fight back.

More importantly, though, I don't think any sort of net positive is gained when one is confronted by uncivilized cretins and stoops to their level.

 

[BluePhantom]

More importantly, though, I don't think any sort of net positive is gained when one is confronted by uncivilized cretins and stoops to their level.

I certainly don't agree with that part. Read what i wrote in post #28. I can assure you that had I not "stooped to the level" of my bullies I would have lived a much different life than I have. There is not a shred of doubt in my mind.

 

[Cecilie1200]

More importantly, though, I don't think any sort of net positive is gained when one is confronted by uncivilized cretins and stoops to their level.

I certainly don't agree with that part. Read what i wrote in post #28. I can assure you that had I not "stooped to the level" of my bullies I would have lived a much different life than I have. There is not a shred of doubt in my mind.

You do realize that you're held to a much higher standard of civilized behavior as an adult than you are as a child, right? And that there's a large difference between someone being a verbally obnoxious asswipe as an adult and the bullying that goes on on the playground? One would hope that you have learned better self-control and better ways of handling your problems since grade school.

Sorry, but there is no way to justify physically assaulting someone because you don't like them shooting off their mouths or being rude. As for the physically abusive wife, I already told you the proper procedure for handling her according to the REAL priority in that situation, which is getting rid of her and getting custody of the child. It is not your job to run around, trying to make people civilized. It's your job to BE civilized.

I will go further. However obnoxious and crass those women's words were in the second and third examples - and they certainly were - they still would have been quite justified in having your friends arrested and prosecuted for assault, and they would have had a good case. Didn't your mother ever teach you that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"? It is unacceptable to escalate an encounter from verbal to physical. That's why the law SAYS it's unacceptable.

 

[BluePhantom]

You do realize that you're held to a much higher standard of civilized behavior as an adult than you are as a child, right? And that there's a large difference between someone being a verbally obnoxious asswipe as an adult and the bullying that goes on on the playground? One would hope that you have learned better self-control and better ways of handling your problems since grade school.

I do understand that. I also understand that the lessons we learn as children shape our adulthood. If someone gets away with being a bully as a child they will grow up and be a "boardroom bully". If someone, like when I was a kid, doesn't learn to fight they will grow up to always run away and play it safe and they will never learn to take chances and go for it. There are exceptions, obviously, but for the most part I would say that that's the way it usually works out.

Sorry, but there is no way to justify physically assaulting someone because you don't like them shooting off their mouths or being rude.

I respectfully disagree. Among men there is that time. That is a male culture thing. There is a time among men when you fight even if it's just words. You fight for your integrity, you fight for your woman's honor. I am not saying these things are "right" or "wrong" just that it is the culture of men. And women are just as culpable. If we don't fight for our woman's honor we run the risk of losing the respect of our woman because society tells us it's our job to protect our woman and society tells the woman it's our job to protect her. So we can rationalize this or that but keep in mind that fight usually happen quickly, instinct and conditioning kick in, and that conditioning comes from the rules that society has placed upon us according to our gender roles.

Be honest.....would you really want a man that burst into tears and used just as much tissue as you did watching Steel Magnolias or Beaches? Hell no....that's not a "man". So among men there is a time to fight and women in their way demand that there is a time for us to fight to prove that we are "men".

If a woman steps into the realm of "men" isn't she entering an area where they are far different rules?

I will go further. However obnoxious and crass those women's words were in the second and third examples - and they certainly were - they still would have been quite justified in having your friends arrested and prosecuted for assault, and they would have had a good case. Didn't your mother ever teach you that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"? It is unacceptable to escalate an encounter from verbal to physical. That's why the law SAYS it's unacceptable.

Spoken like a woman. I don't say that to be condescending. I just mean that's something a woman would have been taught to say by society. Sure....they probably could have had them arrested and perhaps they even should have. But as I alluded to above. The law is one thing; our culture is quite another. and one rarely has much to do with the other.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You do realize that you're held to a much higher standard of civilized behavior as an adult than you are as a child, right? And that there's a large difference between someone being a verbally obnoxious asswipe as an adult and the bullying that goes on on the playground? One would hope that you have learned better self-control and better ways of handling your problems since grade school.

I do understand that. I also understand that the lessons we learn as children shape our adulthood. If someone gets away with being a bully as a child they will grow up and be a "boardroom bully". If someone, like when I was a kid, doesn't learn to fight they will grow up to always run away and play it safe and they will never learn to take chances and go for it. There are exceptions, obviously, but for the most part I would say that that's the way it usually works out.

I'm not saying don't fight back. I'm saying two things: 1) you should also have learned to pick your battles, because not everything REQUIRES a fight, and 2) as an adult, you should know better, more civilized, and more mature ways of fighting back than punching someone. For example, I pointed out that the correct thing to do about the obnoxious woman taking your seat is NOT to stand there, arguing with her and thus giving her the opportunity to be even more rude. It's to take your problem to the manager and let HIM deal with her. And frankly, it's a total stranger and a frigging seat in a restaurant. It's not worth ASSAULTING someone over.

Sorry, but there is no way to justify physically assaulting someone because you don't like them shooting off their mouths or being rude.

I respectfully disagree. Among men there is that time. That is a male culture thing. There is a time among men when you fight even if it's just words. You fight for your integrity, you fight for your woman's honor. I am not saying these things are "right" or "wrong" just that it is the culture of men. And women are just as culpable. If we don't fight for our woman's honor we run the risk of losing the respect of our woman because society tells us it's our job to protect our woman and society tells the woman it's our job to protect her. So we can rationalize this or that but keep in mind that fight usually happen quickly, instinct and conditioning kick in, and that conditioning comes from the rules that society has placed upon us according to our gender roles.

Be honest.....would you really want a man that burst into tears and used just as much tissue as you did watching Steel Magnolias or Beaches? Hell no....that's not a "man". So among men there is a time to fight and women in their way demand that there is a time for us to fight to prove that we are "men".

If a woman steps into the realm of "men" isn't she entering an area where they are far different rules?

Sorry, but men don't have different rules. I can assure you that it's just as unacceptable - and illegal - for men to start punching other men over shooting off their mouths as it is to punch a woman for it. If things are different where you live, then I would have to start wondering what sort of low-class ghetto you live in.

I expect my husband to say something to a man who is being rude to me (although there's an excellent chance I will beat him to it), but I certainly don't expect him to go out in the parking lot and start whaling away on him for it. How silly. I would only expect my husband to become physically violent on my behalf if someone was physically threatening me (an extension of the whole "self-defense" thing).

Legality follows morality, and the fact that our society has made it illegal to go around punching folks for what they say tells you that it is, in fact, deemed unacceptable morally to do so.

I will go further. However obnoxious and crass those women's words were in the second and third examples - and they certainly were - they still would have been quite justified in having your friends arrested and prosecuted for assault, and they would have had a good case. Didn't your mother ever teach you that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me"? It is unacceptable to escalate an encounter from verbal to physical. That's why the law SAYS it's unacceptable.

Spoken like a woman. I don't say that to be condescending. I just mean that's something a woman would have been taught to say by society. Sure....they probably could have had them arrested and perhaps they even should have. But as I alluded to above. The law is one thing; our culture is quite another. and one rarely has much to do with the other.

That's not "spoken like a woman". It's spoken like a civilized human being who understands that mature adults cannot and should not go around hitting each other over a bunch of words. Again, the fact that it is illegal to do so should tell you that our society views it that way . . . men as well as women. And no, the two have a lot to do with each other, because we don't make things felonies (which assault is) unless we consider them morally reprehensible. I can't imagine where you got the idea that we just pulled the criminal code out of our collective asses.

 

[uscitizen]

Not in a marital situation but if some woman comes up to me and punches me I will punch her back.
I am all for equal rights.
I never punch anyone except for a damn good reason and if they punch me first that is one.

 

[BDBoop]

Words can hurt worse than any fist. Violence is violence. You just express yours differently.