Is there a god?

[Taz]

No. That is called intellectual honesty. The Bible has several literary types; allegorical, historical, law, poetic, prophetic, epistle and proverbial. I'm sure others may add or subtract to this list, but this is a pretty good start. When trying to understand the meaning of passages it is helpful to understand which literary type one is reading and also to place or read the passage in the proper historical light. Something that people who are intellectually dishonest don't do.

Taz knows better than to make the arguments he / she is making. But now there is an even better explanation for Bible interpretation. Thanks for the good job.

You guys are living in a fantasy world. None of the big stuff in the bible can be proven to have happened. Like seriously, you think that god poofed man into being? That's a seriously thick slice of nonsense. And that the earth was formed before the sun? It's completely unfounded and goes against all scientific knowledge.

Scientific knowledge of the universe and it's creation is extremely limited. Many theories, few facts.

A computer programmer can create games that are almost lifelike. It would stand to reason that a far superior intelligence could do much better and on a grander scale. The Bible hints that all of this is not real, and the laws of physics can be suspended if one has enough faith in his/her ability to do so. If it is not real, then all of it is illusion.

I think they meant that the bible is an illusion.

I doubt you think that, but it must have seemed smart when you typed it.

Nobody believes that the bible stories are true, so it IS an illusion.

 

[hobelim]

The moral standards which exist are not constructs of men. The moral standards which exist are independent of men, they are natural laws which have consequences. These consequences serve as a feedback to men. Such that it allows them to discover the moral law or standard through the outcomes or consequences of their behavior. Successful behaviors naturally lead to success. Failed behaviors naturally lead to failure. The problem is that the consequences of moral laws are not immediate, they are by nature, probabilistic. So people like Taz and hobelim tend to ignore that they exist. Thus dooming them to repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

What you don't realize is that your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.

The consequences for violating the commands of God are immediate.

You have already defied the instruction of divine law, you already are in the realm of the dead, you are already in hell as a final warning that you are on the road to complete destruction.

You are the oblivious one.

 

[hobelim]

Logic dictates that it didn't cause itself and that something outside of the universe "caused" it to happen. My guess is that is our creator but, you're right, I can't PROVE it. However, the preponderance of the evidence supports a creator. But if you want to believe the fairy tale that the universe magically "caused" itself to come into existence, that's ok with me. I'd like to believe that too, but I just don't have the FAITH.

I think that an outside creator is a possibility (I'm agnostic) but an outside creator who wants us to follow a book that even believers argue over is kinda ludicrous, still possible, however remote the chances of that happening are. That's why I'm agnostic, there's no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god, but given real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems pretty fair to me.

And one problem you have with your argument is that if there HAS to be a beginning to the universe, then why not a beginning to your god? It seems totally possible. So what I'm saying is that there are as many possibilities as there are ways we can come up with, and then some, so for myself, I'll simply enjoy the ride and keep abreast of the latest scientific discoveries in this domain.

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Thats not true. Abraham, arguably the first atheist, didn't carry around a book. Neither did Moses.

Moses left instructions so that anyone who wanted to could duplicate his experiences of first hand contact with God. People rebelled against him and replaced his teaching with perversions. Jesus came and cleared things up. His disciples left books. The Romans came and replaced his teachings with perversions.

You don't see any evidence of God but you have books. The only way that you will ever find any proof whether any of it is true, all that you have to do is read the instructions and then do it.

If you don't understand the instructions, find someone who does and then ask.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I, personally, believe that there is a god. What that means, though, I have been struggling with for quite some time. Therefore, I pose the questions:

1. If there is a god, what does that mean?
2. If there is not a god, what does that mean?

I am looking for opinion, obviously, I do not believe there will ever be proof, or empirical evidence (at least not until rapture, assuming that there is a god). What I am looking for here is what people believe. What leads you to believe what you do? Why?

Let me be clear, I am NOT looking for evangelism of any kind here. I am looking for what the presence of god (or lack of a god) means to you. I know this is a pretty ambiguous thread, and I do that on purpose, because I do not ant to influence the way anyone responds. I want to open a discussion about what your beliefs (whatever they are) have shaped who you are, how you look at religion (in general), and how you look at the world.

If I believe in God and an afterlife, and God does not exist, then when I die I have lost nothing.
If I do not believe in God and an afterlife, and God does exist, then I have lost everything...

 

[EGR one]

I, personally, believe that there is a god. What that means, though, I have been struggling with for quite some time. Therefore, I pose the questions:

1. If there is a god, what does that mean?
2. If there is not a god, what does that mean?

I am looking for opinion, obviously, I do not believe there will ever be proof, or empirical evidence (at least not until rapture, assuming that there is a god). What I am looking for here is what people believe. What leads you to believe what you do? Why?

Let me be clear, I am NOT looking for evangelism of any kind here. I am looking for what the presence of god (or lack of a god) means to you. I know this is a pretty ambiguous thread, and I do that on purpose, because I do not ant to influence the way anyone responds. I want to open a discussion about what your beliefs (whatever they are) have shaped who you are, how you look at religion (in general), and how you look at the world.

Nope indeed not. The hardest thing indeed to come to grips with for posters here is we have been indoctrinated by our parents and what they taught before us by THEIR parents that there is a god and you cant go wrong being a christian.

I like most americans was brought up and taught by my parents that god created us and to go to church and sunday school and read the bible. this is hard for most people to accept but its a complete waste of time. when i tried to argue with my parents there is no god they would say-then how did you get here,how did the world get here? simple explanation for that.

Just study evolution,makes FAR more sense how we got here and how the world was created,than the bible or there being a god and a devil. Its a little complicated and hard to figure out at FIRST but if you stick with it and dont give up on reading it,it will make sense to you and you will understand it It is the hardest thing to accept for most americans,I get that.But as i saidmwhen you sit through and study it,it makes far more sense than anything our parents taught us or anything the bible said.LOL

Just think about it for a minute.GOOD PEOPLE die all the time,you see news items on the news all the time how a bus full of christians turned over and many were killed,happens everyday all the time. wow thats some kind of god out there protecting you there. The world is wayyyyy too fucked up for there to be a god out there.

Sometimes, you have to ask yourself why a God would imprison immortal souls in a mud body, and inflict this world upon them. The obvious answer is to punish and discipline the souls. This God would not get much in the way of positive results if he put these entrapped souls in an ideal environment. Tough love perhaps?

Life can be tough on these mud bodies, but we have no reason to believe that any of the immortal souls are damaged in any way by what happens to those mud bodies. We care what happens to our mud bodies, because we are weak, ignorant, and selfish people, who cannot envision the big picture.

 

[Taz]

I think that an outside creator is a possibility (I'm agnostic) but an outside creator who wants us to follow a book that even believers argue over is kinda ludicrous, still possible, however remote the chances of that happening are. That's why I'm agnostic, there's no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god, but given real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems pretty fair to me.

And one problem you have with your argument is that if there HAS to be a beginning to the universe, then why not a beginning to your god? It seems totally possible. So what I'm saying is that there are as many possibilities as there are ways we can come up with, and then some, so for myself, I'll simply enjoy the ride and keep abreast of the latest scientific discoveries in this domain.

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Thats not true. Abraham, arguably the first atheist, didn't carry around a book. Neither did Moses.

Moses left instructions so that anyone who wanted to could duplicate his experiences of first hand contact with God. People rebelled against him and replaced his teaching with perversions. Jesus came and cleared things up. His disciples left books. The Romans came and replaced his teachings with perversions.

You don't see any evidence of God but you have books. The only way that you will ever find any proof whether any of it is true, all that you have to do is read the instructions and then do it.

If you don't understand the instructions, find someone who does and then ask.

So God found Moses but won't find anyone else and wants us to obey a book?

 

[EGR one]

Taz knows better than to make the arguments he / she is making. But now there is an even better explanation for Bible interpretation. Thanks for the good job.

You guys are living in a fantasy world. None of the big stuff in the bible can be proven to have happened. Like seriously, you think that god poofed man into being? That's a seriously thick slice of nonsense. And that the earth was formed before the sun? It's completely unfounded and goes against all scientific knowledge.

Spoken like a militant atheist on a mission.

Just pointing out that his views are contrary to science. You can't handle that.

Which scientific facts would that be, Taz?

Science doesn't say that an invisible being poofed man into being.

The universe began, and that is all science knows about the event. It is likely that at some point the universe will end, and that is all that science can tell us about that event.

 

[hobelim]

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Thats not true. Abraham, arguably the first atheist, didn't carry around a book. Neither did Moses.

Moses left instructions so that anyone who wanted to could duplicate his experiences of first hand contact with God. People rebelled against him and replaced his teaching with perversions. Jesus came and cleared things up. His disciples left books. The Romans came and replaced his teachings with perversions.

You don't see any evidence of God but you have books. The only way that you will ever find any proof whether any of it is true, all that you have to do is read the instructions and then do it.

If you don't understand the instructions, find someone who does and then ask.

So God found Moses but won't find anyone else and wants us to obey a book?

Take a look around. People are either like children running amok screaming on a merry go round like life is an endless county fair or huddled around a campfire scaring each other with ghost stories in the middle of a never ending night.

God didn't find Moses, Moses found God and was given things to do.

God doesn't want you to obey a book. Its about attaining comprehension. You should want something more out of life than just complaining about life or getting inebriated..

God has given you better approach to living other than using your life to perpetuate an abject disregard for life.

WTF are you clinging to?

 

[K9Buck]

And one problem you have with your argument is that if there HAS to be a beginning to the universe, then why not a beginning to your god?

Well, someone or something HAD to come first that didn't need to be caused by someone or something else, right?

No, you'd need to prove that. And you can't.

It's just logic 101.

Logic 101 would say that we don't know. Why are you folks so hung up on that your invisible friend came first? There's no logic to that. It's possibility, nothing more.

Logic 101 tells me that, when I enter a room and see it set up for a wedding reception, I deduce that another made it happen. I don't presume not to know and leave open the possibilities that the tables, chairs, decorations, etc. organized themselves.

 

[EGR one]

Taz knows better than to make the arguments he / she is making. But now there is an even better explanation for Bible interpretation. Thanks for the good job.

You guys are living in a fantasy world. None of the big stuff in the bible can be proven to have happened. Like seriously, you think that god poofed man into being? That's a seriously thick slice of nonsense. And that the earth was formed before the sun? It's completely unfounded and goes against all scientific knowledge.

Scientific knowledge of the universe and it's creation is extremely limited. Many theories, few facts.

A computer programmer can create games that are almost lifelike. It would stand to reason that a far superior intelligence could do much better and on a grander scale. The Bible hints that all of this is not real, and the laws of physics can be suspended if one has enough faith in his/her ability to do so. If it is not real, then all of it is illusion.

I think they meant that the bible is an illusion.

I doubt you think that, but it must have seemed smart when you typed it.

Nobody believes that the bible stories are true, so it IS an illusion.

Nobody? What nonsense! The fact that we do not understand them does not make them false. Nor, does the fact that you don't have a clue as what other people believe, make your statement true.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Totally confirmed through science. Science tells us that there has never been an uncaused event. So the only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which is eternal and unchanging. Ergo, God is objective truth. Ergo, God is reality. Ergo, God is existence.

Science does not confirm anything. Science can only disprove.

So, Science has neither proved nor disproved the existence of God.

God could have been the cause of the universe, but the cause could have been something else that is undiscovered or unexplained by our current understanding. It is no different than ancient humans using gods to explain the unexplained.

 

[Baron]

I, personally, believe that there is a god. .

The God exist and it is your choice:

Either you go to Hell or Paradise.

 

[Humorme]

I, personally, believe that there is a god. .

The God exist and it is your choice:

Either you go to Hell or Paradise.

How much does it cost to believe?

 

[ding]

Science does not confirm anything. Science can only disprove.

Science is the study of order within nature to understand nature and make predictions about nature.

Science proves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al or it disproves the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al. Science is never conclusive because laws, theories, principles, et al are always subject to revision if new data comes along - up to and including refuting the laws, theories, principles, et al.

Some people have said that science can't disprove the existence of something. I say to those people, if science can't really disprove the existence of something, then science can't really prove the existence of something either.

So, we are left with having to accept that practically speaking, science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al

or

That everything is taken on faith as nothing can really be proven.

So for the purposes of this discussion, we will assume the former; that practically speaking science does prove and disprove the existence of laws, theories, principles, et al.

So, Science has neither proved nor disproved the existence of God.

There are several places we can debate the evidence for God. I have two such threads going now. Would you like to pick one?

God could have been the cause of the universe, but the cause could have been something else that is undiscovered or unexplained by our current understanding. It is no different than ancient humans using gods to explain the unexplained.

Logically the only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which is eternal and unchanging. Which happens to be the definition of God and the definition of objective truth and reality. Reality is existence. Ergo God is existence.

 

[ding]

Logic dictates that it didn't cause itself and that something outside of the universe "caused" it to happen. My guess is that is our creator but, you're right, I can't PROVE it. However, the preponderance of the evidence supports a creator. But if you want to believe the fairy tale that the universe magically "caused" itself to come into existence, that's ok with me. I'd like to believe that too, but I just don't have the FAITH.

I think that an outside creator is a possibility (I'm agnostic) but an outside creator who wants us to follow a book that even believers argue over is kinda ludicrous, still possible, however remote the chances of that happening are. That's why I'm agnostic, there's no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god, but given real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems pretty fair to me.

And one problem you have with your argument is that if there HAS to be a beginning to the universe, then why not a beginning to your god? It seems totally possible. So what I'm saying is that there are as many possibilities as there are ways we can come up with, and then some, so for myself, I'll simply enjoy the ride and keep abreast of the latest scientific discoveries in this domain.

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Don't be silly. We are constantly receiving feedback from the moral laws; both positive and negative.

 

[Taz]

I think that an outside creator is a possibility (I'm agnostic) but an outside creator who wants us to follow a book that even believers argue over is kinda ludicrous, still possible, however remote the chances of that happening are. That's why I'm agnostic, there's no proof either way for or against the possibility of a god, but given real proof either way, I'm open to changing my mind. Seems pretty fair to me.

And one problem you have with your argument is that if there HAS to be a beginning to the universe, then why not a beginning to your god? It seems totally possible. So what I'm saying is that there are as many possibilities as there are ways we can come up with, and then some, so for myself, I'll simply enjoy the ride and keep abreast of the latest scientific discoveries in this domain.

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Don't be silly. We are constantly receiving feedback from the moral laws; both positive and negative.

Shut up you fool, I'm not talking to you, and you're starting to annoy me. You're wrong and repeating it over and over makes you still wrong. so please, STFU.

 

[ding]

If there was another world of superior intelligences in another dimension or on the other side of the universe how else would they be able to communicate with us if not by providing instructions on how to communicate with them?

How could they overcome the limitations of space and time to do that?

Think about quantum mechanics, the dual nature of light and how electrons, even you, can be in two places at the same time.......,,


if the electron can be in two places at the same time, it means that the universe has split into two universes.

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Don't be silly. We are constantly receiving feedback from the moral laws; both positive and negative.

Shut up you fool, I'm not talking to you, and you're starting to annoy me. You're wrong and repeating it over and over makes you still wrong. so please, STFU.

You are calling me a fool? I think you're the fool. You lie about being an agnostic and posting under multiple accounts. I'm speaking the truth. We are constantly receiving feedback from God through the moral laws; both positive and negative. That's how God works in our lives. You don't like hearing the truth because the truth hurts before it helps.

 

[Taz]

So your god is in another part of the universe?

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Don't be silly. We are constantly receiving feedback from the moral laws; both positive and negative.

Shut up you fool, I'm not talking to you, and you're starting to annoy me. You're wrong and repeating it over and over makes you still wrong. so please, STFU.

You are calling me a fool? I think you're the fool. You lie about being an agnostic and posting under multiple accounts. I'm speaking the truth. We are constantly receiving feedback from God through the moral laws; both positive and negative. That's how God works in our lives. You don't like hearing the truth because the truth hurts before it helps.

Moral laws are subjective, like for Muslims, they do shit that we think is barbaric, but they think it’s normal. And you’re just as big an idiot as they are.

 

[ding]

I would put it another way..

If conscious existence was like a ladder with God, the kingdom of heaven, and eternal life at the top, most people on earth are currently lingering at the bottom where there is no God, with one foot in the fire, one foot in the grave.

So your god basically can't communicate with anyone except through a book.

Don't be silly. We are constantly receiving feedback from the moral laws; both positive and negative.

Shut up you fool, I'm not talking to you, and you're starting to annoy me. You're wrong and repeating it over and over makes you still wrong. so please, STFU.

You are calling me a fool? I think you're the fool. You lie about being an agnostic and posting under multiple accounts. I'm speaking the truth. We are constantly receiving feedback from God through the moral laws; both positive and negative. That's how God works in our lives. You don't like hearing the truth because the truth hurts before it helps.

Moral laws are subjective, like for Muslims, they do shit that we think is barbaric, but they think it’s normal. And you’re just as big an idiot as they are.

No. Men are subjective. Moral laws are absolute. Moral laws don't care about religion.

Think of them as standards. Standards aren't subjective.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I don't know what that is. Please explain.

Whirled Wad Wub

It is perfectly clear. Quit pretending it isn't, in order to evade the question. That is a typical Internet act.

I wasn't sure what the "wounded knee pest control" thing was, but I'll keep playing.

dingbat was saying that peace and harmony led to virtuous societies. The ones he named were filled with all kinds of nasty shit. So not peaceful, harmonious or virtuous.

No. ding said, that logic and history show that virtue leads to peace and harmony within individuals and within societies.

But you haven't shown this to be true, your example were far from it.

No. Creation, and everything which has unfolded since creation proves the existence of God. You deny that tangible evidence can be used as evidence, so I know how stupid you are.

Dude no offense but that is the most screwed up logic i have ever heard. Proof of god would be something like oh I dont know a talking snake,or a spirit for the whole world could see as we do with the MOON everyday all over the world.

Till that happens,you got NOTHING. if thats your only evidence,you got no evidence. as i said before,you really need to study evolution,makes far more sense how we got here and the earth,again the world is wayyyyy too fucked up for their to be a higher power.