Is the Right of Return an Intergenerational Right?

[fanger]

what a dumb poster

 

[fanger]

Jews have a right of return, but Muslims don´t how Apartheid of you

 

[Boston1]

Jews have a right of return, but Muslims don´t how Apartheid of you

Again if you can prove were in geneva convention return is defined as a right I'll concede the issue. However given that a state of war exists between Israel and the UNs combatant palestinian refugee population I see no justification for calling return a "right"

Even in peacetime no nation is required to provide safe haven for forces hostile to that nation.

You might want to review the following

Maintaining the Civilian and Humanitarian ... - UNHCR

Section II

Quote
the targets for identification and separation operations are restricted to combatants who enter a third neutral state as part of a mixed refugee flow resulting from an armed conflict, or who are already present in refugee camps or refugee populated areas.

These parameters facilitate separation exercises by having a clear and precise target, namely, combatants (as stipulated in ExCom 94), and provide a common legal framework in IHL and the rules of neutrality more specifically. In some situations, it is possible that other categories of persons (i.e., non combatants) present a danger either to refugees or to the host state, and should be separated. This issue is briefly addressed later in this section.

End Quote

 

[fanger]

Palestine have no ¨forces¨they are civilians resisting the occupation by the jewish immigrants

 

[Indeependent]

Palestine have no ¨forces¨they are civilians resisting the occupation by the jewish immigrants

So they're stupid. Aren't you amazed at the fact that these "unarmed" freedom fighters are still around?
Of course not! JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOS!

 

[fanger]

you missed out a couple of óoo´s from your jewish rendition of joe´s

 

[Boston1]

Palestine have no ¨forces¨they are civilians resisting the occupation by the jewish immigrants

Actually from what I've just been reading about 50% of all Israeli's are or are the descendants of Judaic people expelled from the Arab nations at the outset of hostilities

The UN has failed to segregate palstininian combatants from noncombantants and as such the entire palestinian refugee population remains in a state of active war with Israel. Had the UN lived up to its obligations then you might have a point, however they didn't and you don't.

Also the term occupation is not applicable. Israel is governing a security zone within an area designated by the last binding treaty as being for the creation of a national Jewish homeland. Therefor Israel cannot be occupying its own land. From another angle one must be occupying someone elses land, the disputed territories were as of yet unsigned, at the time of the Jordanian attack which resulted in the Israeli victory that led to Israel's presence in disputed territories.

If we are going to discuss the issue constructively its important to face the facts of the situation.

There is no occupation
There is no "right" of return
There was never a segregation of combatants and noncombatants within the palestinian so called refugee population
The UN continues to aid both combatants and noncombatants with the palestinian refugee population

From
Charters

Quote
Charters

The term "charter" is used for particularly formal and solemn instruments, such as the constituent treaty of an international organization. The term itself has an emotive content that goes back to the Magna Carta of 1215. Well-known recent examples are the Charter of the United Nations of 1945 and the Charter of the Organization of American States of 1952.
End Quote

The mandate for palestine was a legal instrument consisting of a charter.

It was the last mutually agreed upon legal status of the disputed territories.

 

[fanger]

Israel illegally occupies Palestinian Land
currently the right of return only apply´s to jews
there is no Palestinian military force, they are civilians resisting the occupation
The UN will aid the israeli´s after their defeat, and help in their relocation

 

[Hollie]

Palestine have no ¨forces¨they are civilians resisting the occupation by the jewish immigrants

Not true at all. Pal'istanians voted in an Islamic terrorist organization with a "military wing".

Pal'istanians are not actually resisting anything. They're hoping to fulfill the writ of the Hamas Charter.

You should familiarize yourself with the issues before stumbling so badly.

 

[fanger]

The only¨ Hamas Charter¨I have ever seen was written by jews.

 

[Shusha]

Do you not see the moral inequality of applying human rights to one group while denying them to another?

If it is an intergenerational right -- must it not apply to all groups? If not, why not? What criteria do you use to determine which groups have human rights and which groups do not? Think carefully, because I am going to challenge you on it.

What I think you are doing is pre-determining that the Palestinians have rights and that the Jewish people do not for reasons of prejudice and then trying to invent or create a criteria which excuses the denial of rights to the Jewish people. Rather than building a fair and useful set of criteria that can then be applied to all people.

The state of Israel was not created until 1948.

Therefore, no one can claim to be nationals of that country before 1948, because the nation did not exist.

Well, in point of fact, the nation of Israel came into existence thousands of years ago. That was the point of the Mandate granting self-determination to the Jewish people:

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country


Okay, so by your criteria, no one can claim Israeli nationality prior to May 14, 1948. Doesn't that argue against the right of return for all those who were not residing in Israel at the time it became a nation? On May 14, 1948 all of those residing in Israel actually obtained Israeli citizenship. By what right to people residing outside of Israel have a claim to be nationals of Israel? They can't have been nationals on May 13, 1948, by your own claims. So by what right can they claim Israeli nationality on May 14?

 

[Boston1]

Israel illegally occupies Palestinian Land
currently the right of return only apply´s to jews
there is no Palestinian military force, they are civilians resisting the occupation
The UN will aid the israeli´s after their defeat, and help in their relocation

False.

The palestinians have no land with sovereign status other than Jordan and we both know thats not the area you are referring to.

There is no occupation. A) Israel cannot occupy its own land and B) occupation can only occur if sovereign territory is being held by a foreign power. The disputed territories are not sovereign territory or at least weren't until Israel got there.

Currently there is no internationally applicable right of return. Although Israel does GRANT citizenship to those why qualify. The term "return" is used in this instance as a reference to a national policy instead of an inherent international right.

 

[montelatici]

Hasbara nonsense.

 

[aris2chat]

Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews
Move allows descendant of Jews expelled from Iberian country in 1492 to seek dual Spanish nationality.
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews
Expelled Muslims need not apply

The Jews were forcibly expelled, and the story is almost three years old now

Spain invites descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled 500 years ago to return
Sephardic Jews invited back to Spain after 500 years - BBC News

Muslims were also ¨forcibly expelled¨ from Spain, what happens to their right of return

They came as conquerors, they are also plentiful in spain now.
Jews were forced to leave or burned to death. Jews were falsely accused and subjects of the inquisition as well has had property stolen from them.
Spain wants to make amends, but not all that might be eligible to return will or still have evidence of their ancestors being from Spain.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you not see the moral inequality of applying human rights to one group while denying them to another?

If it is an intergenerational right -- must it not apply to all groups? If not, why not? What criteria do you use to determine which groups have human rights and which groups do not? Think carefully, because I am going to challenge you on it.

What I think you are doing is pre-determining that the Palestinians have rights and that the Jewish people do not for reasons of prejudice and then trying to invent or create a criteria which excuses the denial of rights to the Jewish people. Rather than building a fair and useful set of criteria that can then be applied to all people.

The state of Israel was not created until 1948.

Therefore, no one can claim to be nationals of that country before 1948, because the nation did not exist.

Well, in point of fact, the nation of Israel came into existence thousands of years ago. That was the point of the Mandate granting self-determination to the Jewish people:

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country


Okay, so by your criteria, no one can claim Israeli nationality prior to May 14, 1948. Doesn't that argue against the right of return for all those who were not residing in Israel at the time it became a nation? On May 14, 1948 all of those residing in Israel actually obtained Israeli citizenship. By what right to people residing outside of Israel have a claim to be nationals of Israel? They can't have been nationals on May 13, 1948, by your own claims. So by what right can they claim Israeli nationality on May 14?

The criterion for citizenship in a successor state is normal residence not current presence.

 

[montelatici]

Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews
Move allows descendant of Jews expelled from Iberian country in 1492 to seek dual Spanish nationality.
Spain passes law of return for Sephardic Jews
Expelled Muslims need not apply

The Jews were forcibly expelled, and the story is almost three years old now

Spain invites descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled 500 years ago to return
Sephardic Jews invited back to Spain after 500 years - BBC News

Muslims were also ¨forcibly expelled¨ from Spain, what happens to their right of return

They came as conquerors, they are also plentiful in spain now.
Jews were forced to leave or burned to death. Jews were falsely accused and subjects of the inquisition as well has had property stolen from them.
Spain wants to make amends, but not all that might be eligible to return will or still have evidence of their ancestors being from Spain.

The Jews were allied and invaded with the conquering Moors, the Spanish are being very generous.

 

[USAF 2023]

The RoR has always applied to refugees and their descendants.

Awesome. Thanks Tinmore. That solves that question. I hope you will endeavor to promote this idea on other threads.

" ROR" simply isn't going to happen. The PLO will never receive a chance to annex Israel to " Palestine"

 

[fanger]

1. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
2. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RoccoR]

ILOVEISRAEL, Shusha, P F Tinmore, et al,

Certainly, that was the intent for the establishment of a Jewish National Home; a place of refuge and safety for the Jewish People that, periodically, became easy targets of cultures that hide behind the color of law.

Our pro-Palestinians friends take every opportunity to highlight the notion that, for more than six decades, the Palestinians (originally numbering 750,000 in 1948, Today, some 5 million) live in 58 UN Supported Palestinian Refugee Camps scattered throughout Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Almost all the (so-called) Palestinian Refugees are refugees by choice and slight of hand. Remembering that the there are almost no remaining ‘refugees’ from the much larger partition between India and the creation of Pakistan. ---- Nor would you find any refugees from World War II.

The RoR has always applied to refugees and their descendants.

Awesome. Thanks Tinmore. That solves that question. I hope you will endeavor to promote this idea on other threads.

" ROR" simply isn't going to happen. The PLO will never receive a chance to annex Israel to " Palestine"

(COMMENT)

It should be noted that the dramatized plight and malignant growth of the virtual Palestinian Refugee is artificial (UN does not consider refugee status to be hereditary for any other groups). While tens of millions of refugees have been successfully integrated in one form or another by the UNHCR, the UNRWA has not successfully resettled any refugees. This is because the goal of the UNHCR is to help refugees get on with their lives and as a result most are resettled, not repatriated. By contrast, the UNRWA is a socialized workfare program for refugees and to indefinitely keep them in a temporary situation pending a political outcome on the issue of the Right of Return (RoR); including those that hold citizenship elsewhere. In this regard, the UNRWA with a staff of ≈ 29,000 (1 staff member for every 250 refugees dealing with ≈ 7 million refugees) dwarfs the UNHCR operation with a staff of only ≈ 7,200 (one per 2,100 refugees +) working with 15+ million or more refugees; AND 800,000 awaiting refugee status AND 12 million stateless people who are without refugee status.

The RoR for the Palestinians is made more complicated in that it is often vocalized as an absolute demand, un mitigable and unwavering. That, together with the fact that the Palestinians have yet to assemble a government with one voice, makes it difficult to understand exactly what their official position is at any one time. While the PLO-Negotiation Affairs Department ((PLO-NAD) attempts to bring some clarity to that tangled summation, any Hostile Arab-Palestinian can challenge that by disputing that the PLO-NAD is an official outlet for the demands of the Palestinian. The PLO-NAD points out that ≈ half of all Palestinian refugees are stateless people (that was not always true). The Palestinian complain that Israel, while allowing Jews to immigrate freely into Israel, Palestinian refugees are denied the right to return. They consider this violating UNGA Resolution 194 (1948). However, there is an argument to be made as to whether UN Resolution 194 is legally enforceable and binding over the members. The PLO-NAD Position is stated like this:

Our Position

Our vision requires a just solution to the Palestinian refugee issue in accordance with international law, and specifically UN General Assembly Resolution 194. A just solution must be based on the right of return and reparations. Our position on refugees is also included and supported in the Arab Peace Initiative (API), which calls for “a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.” A just solution to the refugee issue must address two aspects: the right of return and reparations.

Right of Return

Key to the resolution of the refugee issue is Israel’s recognition of the applicable principles and rights of the refugees, including our refugees’ right to return to their homes and lands. Israel’s recognition of the right of return will pave the way to negotiating how that right will be implemented. Choice is a critical part of the process. Our refugees must be allowed to choose how to implement their rights and normalize their status. The options for our refugees should be: return to Israel, return/resettlement to a future Palestinian state, integration in host states, or resettlement in third-party states. Rehabilitation in the form of professional training, education, medical services, provision of housing, etc will also be a necessary component of each of the options.
​

The key that the PLO-NAD relies upon is:

• The right of return for our refugees also is well-established under other international law, including:

• The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) (adopted in 1948): “Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country” (Art. 13(2)).

• The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights: (CCPR) “No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country” (Art. 12(4)).

• The UN Sub-Commission on Human Rights Principles on Housing and Property Restitution for Refugees and Displaced Persons: (Principles+RDP) “All Refugees and displaced persons have the right to voluntarily return to their former homes, lands or places of habitual residence, in safety and dignity” (Art. 10.1)… “Refugees and displaced persons should be able to effectively pursue durable solutions to displacement other than return, if they so wish, without prejudicing their right to the restitution of their housing, land and property” (Art. 10.3).

• The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination: (CERD) “The Committee is concerned about the denial of the right of many Palestinians to return and repossess their land in Israel (Article 5 (d) (ii) and (v)). The Committee reiterates its view expressed in its previous concluding observations on this issue and urges the State party to assure equality in the right to return to one’s country and in the possession of property” (Art. 18).
​

The UDHR is not law. In this case, the citation of interest is rewritten in the CERD (below).

The Principles+RDP is just that, Principles and not Law, Resolution, or binding. However, it is a fundamental 21st Century concept reference document on the theory. "This would apply to a wide range of settings; from advocacy efforts during peace negotiations to ensure the inclusion of restitution rights within any eventual agreement, to the assertion of restitution rights within established restitution procedures on behalf of an individual refugee or IDP within post-conflict or post-disaster settings." However, this set of principle applies to a condition in which the negotiating parties are dedicated to a long-term peace. These principles are not applicable to the dispute resolution process in which on party or the other is in a constant state of Jihad.

The application of these principles must be practical. This cannot be offset by the restitution of payments in which the currency is based on a bankrupt bureaucracy; politically or monetarily.

The CCPR went into force on 23 March 1976. Article 12(4) is a prohibition against "arbitrary" (based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system) restrictions

The CERD, which went into force 4 January 1969, does not apply to action taken prior to that date, cited states:

(ii) The right to leave any country, including one's own, and to return to one's country;
(v) The right to own property alone as well as in association with others;​

These two citation are directly related to the civil rights to condemn racial discrimination and undertake to pursue by all appropriate means eliminating racial discrimination. "This Convention DOES NOT APPLY to distinctions, exclusions, restrictions or preferences made by a State Party to this Convention between citizens and non-citizens." "Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as affecting in any way the legal provisions of States Parties concerning nationality, citizenship or naturalization, provided that such provisions do not discriminate against any particular nationality."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

fanger, et al,

Resolution 194 is NOT LAW and NOT BINDING.

1. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
2. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(COMMENT)

You will notice that this resolution sets a conditional standard: return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors. This along precludes the establishment of the "earliest practicable date" for even consideration. The Region has been in a constant state of war since 1948. The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition in February 1948 and have since called for a continuous state of Jihad. There has been no time, in the last half century, that Israel has had a formal peace arrangement with the all the surrounding Arab States and the Palestinians simultaneously.

Until the such a time, it is unlikely that Israel will even consider a reassessment of its defense strategy.

Most Respectfully,
R