Is States Secession in the Future for USA???

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And the high court has already held that seccession is illegal.

Where in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to stop independent and sovereign states from leaving the voluntary union?

 

[Missourian]

AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!!!

One of the better known statements of Jesus
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

The Gospel of John
Chapter 8 Verse 32​

 

[editec]

Where in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to stop independent and sovereign states from leaving the voluntary union?

You think this is about LAW?

LAW is simply power one step removed from the boot on your neck, dude.

LAW is the threat of a boot on yuour neck.

LAW is cheaper than power, because it can have the same effect as power without having to expend that power.

In chess this phenomena of the relation of LAW to power is described thusly:

The THREAT is more powerful than the execution.​

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You think this is about LAW?

LAW is simply power one step removed from the boot on your neck, dude.

LAW is the threat of a boot on yuour neck.

LAW is cheaper than power, because it can have the same effect as power without having to expend that power.

In chess this phenomena of the relation of LAW to power is described thusly:

The THREAT is more powerful than the execution.​

Well my point is this. The Constitution is meant to restrain the federal government, not the citizens and not the states. At no point at the Constitutional Convention did the delegates of the states think that it would be a good idea to give the federal government the authority to stop the states from leaving the voluntary union. Therefore, they did not put it into the Constitution, and therefore the federal government does not have the authority to stop any state from leaving the Union. Where the Supreme Court found this authority in the Constitution I don't have any idea, and since it is not in the Constitution it is not legal regardless of the Supreme Court's decision.

"...whensoever the general government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and no force; that to this compact each state acceded as a state, and is an integral party; that this government, created by this compact, was not made the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, since that would have made its discretion, and not the Constitution, the measure of its powers..." - Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolve of 1798

 

[Gunny]

What would be the definition of successful?

-Joe

Meaning the state would have to be able to stand on its own militarily against the US, and have a viable economy that could compete on the world market in its own right.

Really, I can think of only one state with the resources to even have a chance and that's Texas. Otherwise, it would have to be more of a regional thing.

Then you have to pick the right region. Hotbeds of liberal nutiness like New England would never fight for territory. They'd cut their own mother's throats to force their politics on them though, so you have to word the cause correctly.

It can't be a cause to subjugate a region, take control of government power and steal that region's resources and disenfranchise anyone with any real power in the region. It would have to be a cause to "preserve the Union" and "free slaves." Selling points are important.

Then, when all is said and done, you can have the Supreme Court at the first possible convenience reinterpret the law pulling something flat out of their asses and state it with a straight face. Too bad Idi Amin's dead cuz he'd be the perfect spokesman. Maybe Baghdad Bob still does appearance?

 

[PeterS]

Where in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to stop independent and sovereign states from leaving the voluntary union?

Gee I don't know...Article 1, Section 10 of the US Constitution states, "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Allaince, or Confederation;grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money;...No state shall, without the Consent of Congress,...keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement of Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

 

[PeterS]

Well my point is this. The Constitution is meant to restrain the federal government, not the citizens and not the states. At no point at the Constitutional Convention did the delegates of the states think that it would be a good idea to give the federal government the authority to stop the states from leaving the voluntary union.

Then try to leave. Good luck...

 

[WhiteLion]

The Declaration of Independence isn't actually any kind of law, meaning it gives no rights and takes no rights away. What it does tell us, is that the founders all believed that the people had the right to do away with a government if it was becoming abusive to their rights and liberty. Also, the fact that the states are always referred to as "independent and sovereign" in the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution pretty much confirm that the founders believed that secession was a fundamental and necessary part of states' rights.

The south absolutely had the right to leave the Union and form a government that would better represent them.



Agreed. Lincoln only gave the Emancipation Proclamation because the war was going bad at that point, and he wanted southern slaves to rise up against their masters. Lincoln was a double-talking tyrant, and if the south had somehow won the war they would have been well within their rights to hang him for his war crimes.



Wrong. The south was tired of bearing the brunt of protectionist tariffs that benefitted the north but hurt them. The independent and sovereign states of the south decided it would be in their best interest to sever ties with the Union and form their own government. Were the New England states "traitors to the flag" when they formed a convention to decide whether they should or should not secede in 1814? Were the founding fathers "traitors to the flag" of Britain because they decided that it would be in their best interest to have their own government?

One begets another, history repeats herself out of the search for perfection, if it happened before it will happen again as rightiousness cannot be mastered by debauchery...WhiteLion

 

[Gunny]

Then try to leave. Good luck...

Why is there ALWAYS someone like YOU in a conversations of this particular topic? Is anyone trying to leave? Has anyone stated they are forming their own nation and leaving the US?

Didn't think so. The fact is there are two sides to this argument and intellectually, no one ever wins. The US won the Civil War and rewrote the rules to legally justify its actions after-the-fact.

There is NO language in the Constitution that precludes secession. The Supreme Court ruling in 1868 based its ruling on "an assumption." You tell me how far an assumption will get you in a court of law NOW, or even on this message board. Nowhere FAST.

Once a state has seceded, the 10th Amendment no longer applies. Thus ends YOUR argument.

 

[PeterS]

Thus ends YOUR argument.

and starts the war...right! Again, try to leave. Lets see what happens. Doesn't the consequence of an act predicate the legality of an act? Further, since the consequence would be the same irrespective of the time period can't we conclude de-facto rule of law?

Your assertion is that by choosing to ignore rule of law that rule of law no longer exists. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way...

 

[Missourian]

Meaning the state would have to be able to stand on its own militarily against the US, and have a viable economy that could compete on the world market in its own right.

Really, I can think of only one state with the resources to even have a chance and that's Texas. Otherwise, it would have to be more of a regional thing.

Not even Texas has a chance. The problem being logistical...no port to the open sea.

The Yucatan Peninsula and Florida hem the Texas and Louisiana ports in...you would need the whole south including Florida...and that isn't going to happen without the Republic of Texas Department of Social Security and Medicare up and running. And I don't think they will except "Redbacks".

 

[WhiteLion]

Then try to leave. Good luck...

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! -Patrick Henry to the Virginia House of Burgesses, 1775

The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. – Thomas Jefferson

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any body of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. – Noah Webster

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere. – Thomas Jefferson (1743-1846), U.S. President, Letter to Abigail Adams, 22 February 1787

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. – James Madison (1751-1836), 4th U.S. President

It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world. The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. – George Washington

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. – Thomas Jefferson

Resistance to tyranny is service to God. – James Madison

The United States Constitution of modern times is nothing more than a paper bridge between good intentions and inevitable fallacy. - WhiteLion

 

[WhiteLion]

Not even Texas has a chance. The problem being logistical...no port to the open sea.

The Yucatan Peninsula and Florida hem the Texas and Louisiana ports in...you would need the whole south including Florida...and that isn't going to happen without the Republic of Texas Department of Social Security and Medicare up and running. And I don't think they will except "Redbacks".

If Texas were to succeed all of the gulf coast states would more than likely follow suit.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Gee I don't know...Article 1, Section 10 of the US Constitution states, "No State shall enter into any Treaty, Allaince, or Confederation;grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money;...No state shall, without the Consent of Congress,...keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement of Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."

You are correct, that is what Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution states among other things. However, when one secedes from the United States the Constitution of the United States no longer applies does it? That would be why the Confederate States ratified their own Constitution. And no where in the Constitution does it say that the federal government can stop a state from seceding.

Then try to leave. Good luck...

As in, I secede from the Union by myself? As in, just my body? How would that even work? Technically I'd still be in the United States, which might possibly be construed as me invading and that probably wouldn't end well for me.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! -Patrick Henry to the Virginia House of Burgesses, 1775

The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases. – Thomas Jefferson

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any body of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. – Noah Webster

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere. – Thomas Jefferson (1743-1846), U.S. President, Letter to Abigail Adams, 22 February 1787

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. – James Madison (1751-1836), 4th U.S. President

It is our true policy to steer clear of entangling alliances with any portion of the foreign world. The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. – George Washington

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. – Thomas Jefferson

Resistance to tyranny is service to God. – James Madison

The United States Constitution of modern times is nothing more than a paper bridge between good intentions and inevitable fallacy. - WhiteLion

What a great post.

 

[Gunny]

and starts the war...right! Again, try to leave. Lets see what happens. Doesn't the consequence of an act predicate the legality of an act? Further, since the consequence would be the same irrespective of the time period can't we conclude de-facto rule of law?

Your assertion is that by choosing to ignore rule of law that rule of law no longer exists. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way...

Again for the apparently REAL slow ... who said anything about leaving?

My assertion is that you are trying to mix apples with oranges and pass them off as an argument by introducing a strawman.

I am not, have not, and stated in my first post arguing what the law says NOW, Einstein. If you back to page one, my first post, I believe it is clearly stated by me that it is currently illegal to secede.

THAT is one topic. The ruling itself is ANOTHER topic.

Whether any state could hypothetically successfully secede is yet ANOTHER topic.

It's obvious the three are as confused in your mind as they are your responses.

 

[Gunny]

Not even Texas has a chance. The problem being logistical...no port to the open sea.

The Yucatan Peninsula and Florida hem the Texas and Louisiana ports in...you would need the whole south including Florida...and that isn't going to happen without the Republic of Texas Department of Social Security and Medicare up and running. And I don't think they will except "Redbacks".

Or a nice treaty with Mexico and use of Mexico's ports.

Then of course, there are all those refineries the US can't survive without as a bargaining chip.

However, was this nation to split up for whatever hypothetical reason, it would more than likely be a regional thing. It already divides our politics.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

and starts the war...right! Again, try to leave. Lets see what happens. Doesn't the consequence of an act predicate the legality of an act? Further, since the consequence would be the same irrespective of the time period can't we conclude de-facto rule of law?

Your assertion is that by choosing to ignore rule of law that rule of law no longer exists. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way...

So, in your opinion, the colonies committed an illegal act when they seceded from Great Britain? I mean, they obviously knew that King George wasn't exactly going to let them go without a fight, so since they knew it would lead to war it was illegal?

The Revolutionary War was a consequence of the colonies declaring independence, or seceding, from Great Britain. Therefore, if we use your logic, it was illegal for the Continental Congress to declare independence from Great Britain.

 

[Missourian]

Or a nice treaty with Mexico and use of Mexico's ports.

I don't know, I undertand they may still hold a grudge over the Battle of San Jacinto.

 

[Missourian]

Why I don't believe it will happen in our lifetime.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...riment-the-power-of-authority.html#post914713