Is socialized healthcare the answer?

[Care4all]

something is amiss.....we do pay too much for health care....

there are many reasons for this....

a few new laws, and stricter regulations, as there were in the 80's, and some restructuring and deregulation, might be able to draw in the colossal costs....as example, we should be able to negotiate for bulk discounts on our drugs for medicare recipients, we should be able to trade freely with other countries on drugs....for just one thing that could reduce all of our health care costs by 25%, streamlining paperwork/records/billing could be another 20% yearly savings, AMA getting rid of doctors with 3 malpractice suits, instead of defending these crappy doctors and FORCING higher malpractice insurance on to the innocent and proficient doctors...., more competition between states, allowing insurance companies to cross state lines without as many hurdles....

SOMETHING has to be done, BECAUSE we are loosing a great deal of business/manufacturing bids to overseas companies who do not have to foot the bill for employee health care....no?

care

 

[editec]

Ed, I think people's income statement will become more important than the medical services required if the government ever takes full control of health care.

Absolutely, NO.

Power corrupts. I have every confidence that a fully sociialized system will play out such that the insiders and their minions will recieve far better care than most of us.

Like I keep trying to make clear, I see NO GOOD solution to the question of health care for this nation.

Market capitalism isn't working because HC economics is wholly different than most economics, and socialist solutions are so EASILY corrupted by those in power to benefit them above all oursiders.

That's not to say that they'll deny anybody services but, it may have an impact on how quickly the less fortunate get service. I can see it now... a God czar.

Totally. We see this right now in the way we treat our enlisted vets V how we treat top brass, or how we treat clerks working for the government V how we treat those higher up in the ranks of the government.

Rank has its rank previleges is as true in a socialist society as it is in a capitalist one.

Of course they'll never tells us that but, lets face it - the government ALWAYS drills down to the bottom line.

Yes, it does.

As does the so called free market.

HC is so unlike every other need we have that expecting the market, or socialism to work perfectly (or even very well) when it comes to providing HC is like believing that Santa Claus is going to give every kid the same gifts this Christmas.

The ONLY benefit of a fully socialized system is that it MIGHT give us more bang for our buck that our current system does.

It will be unfairly managed, it will cause people to die, but it MIGHT (if managed fairly well) help us bring down our costs, without dramatically screwing us the aggregate morbidity and mortality stats we currently have.

I cannot POSSIBLY give make my support for fully socialized HC any more tepid than that.

As a system it sucks, it just sucks less than what we've got now and it sucks slightly less than what most of my fellow liberals think will work.

 

[editec]

The government can't run shit effectivly.

Be it, Local, state, or Federal.

Post Office, is broke

Social Security Broke

States are broke

Cities are broke

Go to NYC, the city has been building a 11 story sanitation building for about umm 7 years now. In that time, Trump has built like 3 gigantic 70 story skyscrapers and the Sanitation building I think just got the skeleton erected.

Hey you forgot to note that CAPITALISM is broken, too.

Wonder why?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Hey you forgot to note that CAPITALISM is broken, too.

Wonder why?

The fact that you don't like capitalism and don't know how to make the system work for you doesn't mean IT is broken.

What I wonder about is why you're posting half a dozen blathering posts about "No, we MUST have socialized healthcare, you all MUST get out there and work to take care of me", but you mysteriously have yet to find time to answer any of the reasonable questions I've asked you to clarify your incessant Chicken Little panic attacks.

Is it, perhaps, because you CAN'T explain why we're supposed to believe that the sky is falling?

 

[sealybobo]

The government can't run shit effectivly.

Be it, Local, state, or Federal.

Post Office, is broke

Social Security Broke

States are broke

Cities are broke

Go to NYC, the city has been building a 11 story sanitation building for about umm 7 years now. In that time, Trump has built like 3 gigantic 70 story skyscrapers and the Sanitation building I think just got the skeleton erected.

Donald Trump bought the Taj Mahal Casino from the Crosby family, then taking it into bankruptcy. This expansion, both personal and business, led to mounting debt.[4] Much of the news about him in the early 1990s involved his much publicized financial problems, creditor-led bailout, etc.

Wiki.

Great example. Bush took us into bankruptsy and Trump took himself. That cost the tax payers a lot of money.

 

[sealybobo]

Hey you forgot to note that CAPITALISM is broken, too.

Wonder why?

I see Cecillie and others are attacking you/ganging up on you the same way they do me.

Don't worry, you are right. What you say makes perfect sense and they're just never gonna give an inch.

Just remember, they don't matter for the next 4 years. Or at least until 2010 midterms.

 

[Bern80]

Hey you forgot to note that CAPITALISM is broken, too.

Wonder why?

You people really need to make up your minds. I believe you are another that agreed true free market capitalism doesn't exist in this country. You seemingly have a short term memory loss problem as you don't hesitate to use at as a scapegoat anyway.

 

[editec]

America spends way too much on public education as well. Compared to other industrialized country, the US spends more per student and gets the least in return. Obviously, nationalizing the public educational system has not worked. That's why enrollment in private schools and the number receiving homeschooling has skyrocketed.

that is true.

And the number one cause of increasing cost in public education is what, please?

That's right the escalating cost of health care to public school systems.

But you're point DOES have merit when it comes to COLLEGE edcuation.

And again, we see the same problem as I am attempting to describe has happened to HC costs thanks in large part to medicade and medicare.


Because of PELL grants and cheap student loans we increased DEMAND for schools without increasing SUPPLY of edcuation in equal part.

Hence market forces make the demand for education rise, but the supply side never reacts as quickly because of the long lag time between demand and education's ability to supply it.

If you are rejecting students becasue you cannot accomodate them, you are quite naturally reluctant to build more classrooms and hire more educators because you know that the market demand rises and falls on demographics over generation, but your investment costs occur immediately.

Now for those of you who read the above carefully, instead of simply assuming I'm a communist or something, what you see is me complaining that the government's generosity has actually created the problem.

And for those of you who cannot read?

Just assume as so many of you already do, that I am demanding that the goverment take away your Bibles and guns and teach your children that homosexuality is a good thing.

 

[editec]

You people really need to make up your minds. I believe you are another that agreed true free market capitalism doesn't exist in this country. You seemingly have a short term memory loss problem as you don't hesitate to use at as a scapegoat anyway.

My mind is rather already made up.

We have a market, and the market still responds to supply demand forces, even though it is not a FREE MARKET.

American capitalism can coexist, as it has since 1789, with a mixed economic system.

Sometimes that mixed economy is done judiciously and things work out fairly well, and sometimes, as for example in the recent bank crises, the alliance between the private market and the government regulations (or lack of them) leads to disaster.

I'm terrible sorry if I cannot give you a simple explanation for things, but this world is not the simply world you think it is.

 

[sealybobo]

We have a market, and the market still responds to supply demand forces, even though it is not a FREE MARKET.

American capitalism can coexist, as it has since 1789, with a mixed economic system.

Sometimes that mixed economy is done judiciously and things work out fairly well, and sometimes, as for example in the recent bank crises, the alliance between the private market and the government regulations (or lack of them) leads to disaster.

I'm terrible sorry if I cannot give you a simple explanation for things, but this world is not the simply world you think it is.

Bless your heart! This is why I've given up talking to these guys. Spin spin spin. And they base their premise on half truths.

Or, they ask us why we would want to take from someone who "earned" millions and redistribute the wealth". Why would we "give it to the person who didn't earn it", they say. And honestly, if they don't understand why the poor pay zero taxes and the rich pay a little more, what can I say? If we don't do it this way then poor people will die? They don't care!

Or they'll ask me, "why would you raise anyones taxes? Why not just cut spending? And the answer is, this country needs a face lift for one. So not spending money is not an option. Not after 8 years of neglect. And the other reason is that we can not solve our problems by cutting spending alone. That's a fact even Republicans get. But these guys won't admit that's true and then discuss from there. So we're stuck talking with people who will deny/ignore facts.

No one said we approve of Democrats wasting money. But what pork/earmarks are they pushing for that are considered wasteful spending? I'm sure you can find some, but I bet it won't add up to the GOP Pork. In fact, last year, even though the Dems were in power, the GOP still got more pork than the dems. Know why? We would have never passed any bills if the GOP weren't given pork.

 

[sealybobo]

My mind is rather already made up.

We have a market, and the market still responds to supply demand forces, even though it is not a FREE MARKET.

American capitalism can coexist, as it has since 1789, with a mixed economic system.

Sometimes that mixed economy is done judiciously and things work out fairly well, and sometimes, as for example in the recent bank crises, the alliance between the private market and the government regulations (or lack of them) leads to disaster.

I'm terrible sorry if I cannot give you a simple explanation for things, but this world is not the simply world you think it is.

I tried to show them this but they wouldn't read it. Instead they attacked me and said I don't have any original thoughts. As if they have come up with their conservative ideas all on their own:

ThomHartmann.com - Democracy - Not "The Free Market" - Will Save America's Middle Class

The "middle class" is the creation of government intervention in the marketplace, and won't exist without it (as millions of Americans and Europeans are discovering).

In actual fact, there is no such thing as a "free market." Markets are the creation of government.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How happy are you Editec? Look who supports you. Maybe you can rally some more of the board idiots and retards to openly support you on this issue.

Lets get something straight. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the Government to do any of what you want. You support the further destruction of our Government with illegal actions. Do not in the future EVER complain about any power the Government seizes or creates. Do not whine about lost rights or how the Government has checks and balances.

You advocate the shredding of our Constitution and you do so over and over.

If the Government does even a fraction of what you demand with OUT an Amendment authorizing it, YOU have forfeited your right to ever complain about what the Government does again. No matter who is in power.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Most people are happy to have socialized medicine especially since they think that "other people" or "the evil rich" will be paying for it. What they don't know or don't want to see is that the middle class taxpayers, as they always do, are the ones who will be paying for all this. Not "someone else" or "the evil rich".
Obama promised a tax cut for those making under 250K but how is that possible with all the spending programs and gubamint regulation he has planned?

 

[Care4all]

How happy are you Editec? Look who supports you. Maybe you can rally some more of the board idiots and retards to openly support you on this issue.

Lets get something straight. It is UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the Government to do any of what you want. You support the further destruction of our Government with illegal actions. Do not in the future EVER complain about any power the Government seizes or creates. Do not whine about lost rights or how the Government has checks and balances.

You advocate the shredding of our Constitution and you do so over and over.

If the Government does even a fraction of what you demand with OUT an Amendment authorizing it, YOU have forfeited your right to ever complain about what the Government does again. No matter who is in power.

Is Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security unconstitutional as well?

Is paying for all military and government officials health care costs with our taxes unconstitutional as well?

What's the difference

 

[sealybobo]

Most people are happy to have socialized medicine especially since they think that "other people" or "the evil rich" will be paying for it. What they don't know or don't want to see is that the middle class taxpayers, as they always do, are the ones who will be paying for all this. Not "someone else" or "the evil rich".
Obama promised a tax cut for those making under 250K but how is that possible with all the spending programs and gubamint regulation he has planned?

How was Bush's tax cuts possible? Did you ask questions then or just now?

And I thought the rich pay 80% of all the taxes?

So you do understand the concept of shifting the tax burden on to the middle class.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Is Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security unconstitutional as well?

Is paying for all military and government officials health care costs with our taxes unconstitutional as well?

What's the difference

The first is Unconstitutional the second is not. The Constitution grants to the Government the ability, the power and the right to create Military and Government employees and the right to those programs.

That you do not grasp this is telling indeed. That you support the illegal take over of ALL medical related services in this country by our Government is also telling.

 

[Esta_PG]

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Being unconstitutional doesn't change whether or not it solves the problem. There are a handful of things that are, basically, unconstitutional but we allow anyways through very complex draftings of legislation. That could feasibly be done here if we knew how to solve the problem.

Frankly, I don't know how to "fix" healthcare. It's a financial burden on many people largely because there isn't a great deal of inter-hospital cooperation. There's the famous story where Huey P. Newton had been shot in a shoot-out with the police and sought entry in Kaiser Permanente, in San Francisco, where the emergency room nurse receptionist asked if he was a member and Huey's bleeding there yelling to get him some treatment. Turns out he was a member, but it's unsettling that the community of hospitals is so territorial about their patients because patients are more than patients. They're paying clients. It would make things a lot more smooth if hospitals were co-operative about patients. I have a health care plan, but it only covers me if I use their hospital. Now, I travel a lot, and I can't imagine what would happen if I got into a car accident in Spokane, say, or Fargo, and they didn't have a hospital nearby that was in my plan. I've never been in a situation like this before so I don't know, but I assume I'd have to fill out a lot of paperwork and make statements before I get the aid my health care should help with.

That's a lot of hassle leading the same direction. If they had a health system where you were eligible at any hospital in the nation at any time...things would be easier in some ways. I don't know if there'd be long lines for things like beds for heart attack patients, though I've been to hospitals where they have far more beds than they have bedrooms and I think the nurses would think something up pretty fast, but it would probably make it almost mandatory to make appointments with doctors well in advance for routine things or things that can be regularly scheduled. Expansion of ER services would probably be a necessary step in this case.

If you conglomerate several hospitals into like-minded clusters (the Catholics and Jews I know have hospitals, as well as a few other religions) and thus retain the personal connection with a personal hospital yet know there's a resource out there for being abroad and having health problems would save a great deal of time in terms of processing insurance claims and having to adjust other things like that. But I am troubled by the notion that the state hires all doctors. It seems to add to the bureaucracy without a sense that it's sure to work. Ou country is awfully big to socialize health care in.

I also agree that tort reform MUST happen sooner than later. Frivolous lawsuits only put more financial strain on a very much needed public service industry.

 

[RodISHI]

The medical industry has gotten so screwed up in the last thirty years no one has a good line on how to fix it.

I am in agreement with Sealy and Ed on this one full socialized medicine is the best route.

When childs typical immunizations cost $1,800.00 verses the $15.00 that they cost thirty years ago we have a problem.

If the same surgery cost less than $4,000.00 in 2001 and more than $28,000.00 plus in 2005 for that same surgical procedure, it is a problem.

At the moment every American is paying for the insurance and legal industries to regulate health care. It is the average working American that gets the shaft when it comes to health care.

My nephew had a tooth that needed repair couple years back. He did not have the $350.00 cash the dentist wanted up front so he did not get the tooth fixed. Six months later the side of his face swelled up from the tooth becoming infected. He ended up in the hospital for emergency surgery where they had to put a drain tube in and remove the infected mass. So a three hundred dollar tooth repair turned into an eighteen thousand dollar hospital stay.

Common sense would be to provide a means of care that everyone can afford. Make it a preventive care system in order to maintain lower long term costs.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You people amaze me. I know Ed was whining and bitching about the "powers" that Bush supposedly seized. I am sure the rest of you were too, yet all of a sudden you have no problem with the Government just ignoring the Constitution.

I have a novel idea. How about the Government get an AMENDMENT to allow them to do what you want, rather then just once again IGNORE the Constitution? What a concept, actually follow the law.

Now go ahead and explain to us how it will never pass and the Government should act illegally for the "good of the Country". Then explain why if you LIKE it is for the "good of the country" but if you don't like it it is "Unconstitutional"? Funny thing, the Constitution ACTUALLY has built into the means to change it.

 

[KittenKoder]

Old news, it did already act illegally for the 'good of the country' during the last 8 years, and look where it got us.