Is religion really so bad?

[ding]

Was there anything in the Ten Commandments that was a real jaw dropper, you think?

100%. You know little about history, OldLady.

By any objective measure the laws established through the Jews was heads and shoulders above the customs of that day. My source for this is Huston Smith's Illustrated World Religions.

In fact, given that we still don't keep them they still challenge many of us still today.

 

[ding]

I think the culture actually informs the religion about what is right and wrong and the religion communicates it to the people in an official fiat.

You think wrong. Wrong and dangerous.

 

[ding]

It codified what was already the common practice. So the two are completely, inextricably interwoven in our history.

Actually it didn't and wasn't.

Did you know that at the time Confucius was formulating his philosophy, it was common practice to boil people and feed it to their families? The families of the victims.

 

[task0778]

Religion does what no government can do. Teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government.

Religion is part of our culture, and culture is what teaches us right from wrong. I believe we can be "good" without signing on to an established faith system, although major religions all set forth the basics of a functioning, "good" society. Without those guidelines, whether they come from religion or from secular tradition, no society can prosper. There would be chaos and anarchy.
I agree with you that government cannot "teach" morality. But it never has. Government only enforces what society has already declared as right and wrong.

So is it your belief that if we never had religion we would still have the same "guidelines?"

Religion is too much a part of our culture, historically, to ever answer that question. Going forward, it is not necessary imo to rely on religion alone for moral imperatives.

Where else are moral imperatives going to come from? Some would say science, but I got my doubts about that.

Morals are what is right and wrong, correct?
Ding believes the only ideas of what is "right" or "wrong" come from our religion.
I think the culture actually informs the religion about what is right and wrong and the religion communicates it to the people in an official fiat. Was there anything in the Ten Commandments that was a real jaw dropper, you think? It codified what was already the common practice. So the two are completely, inextricably interwoven in our history.

Does culture inform religion about what is right and wrong or is it the other way around? I do think that religion has to evolve to remain relevant to the times and that means adjusting to cultural changes, so maybe it's a cooperative thing. And I'm not sure that religion communicates that to the people officially or whether gov't does that in the form of laws and regulations.

Re the Ten Commandments, I'd say some were common practice and some maybe not. Killing and stealing, okay but what about honoring thy father and thy mother, lying, and coveting thy neighbor's wife? Was breaking those commandments against any laws before the TC came along? What about the Golden Rule, charity, humility, equality? I kinda think that religion made those ideals far more important and widespread than they were before.

I can't say that religion is the sole source for ideas about what is right or wrong. But I would say that religion has had a major impact on the morality of every society on earth going back to the stone age, and generally you can tell the relative happiness and well being of a society by it's suppression of religion. Places where religion is suppressed are not happy places IMHO.

 

[ding]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

 

[OldLady]

Religion is part of our culture, and culture is what teaches us right from wrong. I believe we can be "good" without signing on to an established faith system, although major religions all set forth the basics of a functioning, "good" society. Without those guidelines, whether they come from religion or from secular tradition, no society can prosper. There would be chaos and anarchy.
I agree with you that government cannot "teach" morality. But it never has. Government only enforces what society has already declared as right and wrong.

So is it your belief that if we never had religion we would still have the same "guidelines?"

Religion is too much a part of our culture, historically, to ever answer that question. Going forward, it is not necessary imo to rely on religion alone for moral imperatives.

Where else are moral imperatives going to come from? Some would say science, but I got my doubts about that.

Morals are what is right and wrong, correct?
Ding believes the only ideas of what is "right" or "wrong" come from our religion.
I think the culture actually informs the religion about what is right and wrong and the religion communicates it to the people in an official fiat. Was there anything in the Ten Commandments that was a real jaw dropper, you think? It codified what was already the common practice. So the two are completely, inextricably interwoven in our history.

Does culture inform religion about what is right and wrong or is it the other way around? I do think that religion has to evolve to remain relevant to the times and that means adjusting to cultural changes, so maybe it's a cooperative thing. And I'm not sure that religion communicates that to the people officially or whether gov't does that in the form of laws and regulations.

Re the Ten Commandments, I'd say some were common practice and some maybe not. Killing and stealing, okay but what about honoring thy father and thy mother, lying, and coveting thy neighbor's wife? Was breaking those commandments against any laws before the TC came along? What about the Golden Rule, charity, humility, equality? I kinda think that religion made those ideals far more important and widespread than they were before.

I can't say that religion is the sole source for ideas about what is right or wrong. But I would say that religion has had a major impact on the morality of every society on earth going back to the stone age, and generally you can tell the relative happiness and well being of a society by it's suppression of religion. Places where religion is suppressed are not happy places IMHO.

I don't disagree with anything. I didn't realize the TC were codified into law; how did one get arrested for not honoring their mother and father, I wonder? A kid who wouldn't follow their parents' rules, maybe? Very interesting.

I may have pushed my case too strongly; I do believe religion and cultural norms come from the same basic impulse to improve society and are inextricably interwoven, as you say.

I am often criticized for not believing in God and yet defending the Christian values I was taught in Sunday School. They say the two stances are incompatible. I don't see that at all. At the root of "good" and "bad" are judgments about what is advantageous or pleasurable versus what is destructive and unpleasant. I just don't see that the judgment MUST come SOLELY from religion, as Ding insists.

 

[ding]

Why does OldLady continually misquote me? Why?

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

 

[G.T.]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

I saw one theologeon in a University debate posit that Morals are STILL Relative, despite his God's existence, because they're then Relative to his God's mind, which he argued was still a mind....so, he doesnt engage in the morals are/arent relative arguments after musing this.

 

[task0778]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

There is no religion in existence today that I know of that accepts or condones homosexuality or pedophilia. There are clergy that have committed such acts but that doesn't mean their religion did nothing about it. Probably not enough, but that's not the fault of the religion. It's the fault of those in leadership positions that failed to hold people accountable for their actions for fear of damaging the reputation of their church.

 

[ding]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

No. That would be men who did that.

And there were only about 200 priests who were bonafide pedos. The other 4500 were homosexuals or bisexuals.

 

[ding]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

I saw one theologeon in a University debate posit that Morals are STILL Relative, despite his God's existence, because they're then Relative to his God's mind, which he argued was still a mind....so, he doesnt engage in the morals are/arent relative arguments after musing this.

Except we get feedback from our behaviors. Logically not all behaviors are equal and don't lead to equal outcomes. So the standards we select matter and are important. When standards are lowered and deviance normalized, predictable surprises will inevitably follow. It is feedback like this that establishes standards for behavior which lead to order and harmony in a society. Not someone's whim. Even God's. He is after all, a logical God.

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

There is no religion in existence today that I know of that accepts or condones homosexuality or pedophilia. There are clergy that have committed such acts but that doesn't mean their religion did nothing about it. Probably not enough, but that's not the fault of the religion. It's the fault of those in leadership positions that failed to hold people accountable for their actions for fear of damaging the reputation of their church.

No, the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children. The church can't afterwards say "we didn't do anything, it was the priests' fault". Sorry, but that's totally douche, and not on.

 

[ding]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

There is no religion in existence today that I know of that accepts or condones homosexuality or pedophilia. There are clergy that have committed such acts but that doesn't mean their religion did nothing about it. Probably not enough, but that's not the fault of the religion. It's the fault of those in leadership positions that failed to hold people accountable for their actions for fear of damaging the reputation of their church.

No, the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children. The church can't afterwards say "we didn't do anything, it was the priests' fault". Sorry, but that's totally douche, and not on.

No. That would be society that created that culture.

But again there were only about 200 priests who were pedophiles. The other 4500 were homosexuals and bisexuals.

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

No. That would be men who did that.

And there were only about 200 priests who were bonafide pedos. The other 4500 were homosexuals or bisexuals.

So not ONE hetero priest among the whole bunch?

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

I saw one theologeon in a University debate posit that Morals are STILL Relative, despite his God's existence, because they're then Relative to his God's mind, which he argued was still a mind....so, he doesnt engage in the morals are/arent relative arguments after musing this.

Except we get feedback from our behaviors. Logically not all behaviors are equal and don't lead to equal outcomes. So the standards we select matter and are important. When standards are lowered and deviance normalized, predictable surprises will inevitably follow. It is feedback like this that establishes standards for behavior which lead to order and harmony in a society. Not someone's whim. Even God's. He is after all, a logical God.

A logical god? Ever read the bible? lol. It has to be cherry-picked by someone "who knows" so they can tell us which parts are real and which parts are allegorical.

I have a question about that for you, the virgin birth. Real, or allegorical? If real, why/how?

 

[task0778]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

There is no religion in existence today that I know of that accepts or condones homosexuality or pedophilia. There are clergy that have committed such acts but that doesn't mean their religion did nothing about it. Probably not enough, but that's not the fault of the religion. It's the fault of those in leadership positions that failed to hold people accountable for their actions for fear of damaging the reputation of their church.

No, the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children. The church can't afterwards say "we didn't do anything, it was the priests' fault". Sorry, but that's totally douche, and not on.

Total nonsense, every church tries to create an environment of trust and love cuz that's what religion is all about and it's priests are supposed to walk the walk. It's really not the church's fault if some of their priests and pastors take advantage of the young. It may not be 'on' for you but it is reality. To say the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children is bullshit. Pedophiles are going to do their evil no matter what the environment is.

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

There is no religion in existence today that I know of that accepts or condones homosexuality or pedophilia. There are clergy that have committed such acts but that doesn't mean their religion did nothing about it. Probably not enough, but that's not the fault of the religion. It's the fault of those in leadership positions that failed to hold people accountable for their actions for fear of damaging the reputation of their church.

No, the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children. The church can't afterwards say "we didn't do anything, it was the priests' fault". Sorry, but that's totally douche, and not on.

Total nonsense, every church tries to create an environment of trust and love cuz that's what religion is all about and it's priests are supposed to walk the walk. It's really not the church's fault if some of their priests and pastors take advantage of the young. It may not be 'on' for you but it is reality. To say the church created an environment that allowed priests to rape children is bullshit. Pedophiles are going to do their evil no matter what the environment is.

The Church's leaders such as popes,,, created that environment. The leaders ARE the church. Their word is final. Too bad for you.

 

[ding]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

I saw one theologeon in a University debate posit that Morals are STILL Relative, despite his God's existence, because they're then Relative to his God's mind, which he argued was still a mind....so, he doesnt engage in the morals are/arent relative arguments after musing this.

Except we get feedback from our behaviors. Logically not all behaviors are equal and don't lead to equal outcomes. So the standards we select matter and are important. When standards are lowered and deviance normalized, predictable surprises will inevitably follow. It is feedback like this that establishes standards for behavior which lead to order and harmony in a society. Not someone's whim. Even God's. He is after all, a logical God.

A logical god? Ever read the bible? lol. It has to be cherry-picked by someone "who knows" so they can tell us which parts are real and which parts are allegorical.

I have a question about that for you, the virgin birth. Real, or allegorical? If real, why/how?

As logical as you discussing something you don't believe in?

 

[Taz]

So if culture said it was OK for men to sleep with young boys, it would be OK in OldLady's universe?

Or is OldLady saying that it will never be OK in any culture for men to sleep with boys because there is some absolute ideal of right and wrong that she clings to?

So why have we had cultures where it was acceptable for men to sleep with young boys? And was it right of them to do so?

Religious culture said it was ok for priests to have sex with children. And pretty much nothing has happened to any of them...

I saw one theologeon in a University debate posit that Morals are STILL Relative, despite his God's existence, because they're then Relative to his God's mind, which he argued was still a mind....so, he doesnt engage in the morals are/arent relative arguments after musing this.

Except we get feedback from our behaviors. Logically not all behaviors are equal and don't lead to equal outcomes. So the standards we select matter and are important. When standards are lowered and deviance normalized, predictable surprises will inevitably follow. It is feedback like this that establishes standards for behavior which lead to order and harmony in a society. Not someone's whim. Even God's. He is after all, a logical God.

A logical god? Ever read the bible? lol. It has to be cherry-picked by someone "who knows" so they can tell us which parts are real and which parts are allegorical.

I have a question about that for you, the virgin birth. Real, or allegorical? If real, why/how?

As logical as you discussing something you don't believe in?

I’m curious, anything wrong with that?

So virgin birth, real or allegorical?