Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That God Exists?

[Mac1958]

We humans have always created gods - sometimes multiple gods at one time - to provide us with guidance, comfort and answers.

Believers of these various gods have always been convinced, down to their very bones, that they had The Answer and that everyone else was just wrong.

Okay. That's fine. That still has never made those various gods real. And if you really don't see the difference between fact & faith, there's nothing I can say.
.

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

I'm not on any kind of search. If something presents itself, great. Until then, I'm perfectly comfy assuming that I'll never know The Answer.
.

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

 

[hadit]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

True. Those who demand that God do a magic trick to convince them ignore the very real truth, that those who do not witness it, future generations say, would deny it, and even many who did witness it would deny their own experience as some kind of madness. Thus, He would have to continue do trick after trick, and even then would not convince some.

 

[gtopa1]

Nope; faith is a gift. What they do with it? God knows.

Greg

 

[SweetSue92]

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

I'm not on any kind of search. If something presents itself, great. Until then, I'm perfectly comfy assuming that I'll never know The Answer.
.

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Seems to me that the horrors we see on this planet every single day are an indication that God doesn't exist.

I'm agnostic, but holy crap, this thread asks a weird question.

Okay, I'll accept your agnosticism. However, I consider agnostics the same as atheists except they are ignorant.

I do agree on the horrors, but we are all born with sin and the god of the world and the prince of the air influences all of us. It's not the true God as you claim who does nothing to stop it. Instead, the truth is God does exist. See, this shows that you are ignorant.

When you can prove it, I'm right here.

There is a difference between faith and fact.
.

I can prove you are agnostic. You still are ignorant. I just got through saying there is no proof, but through faith one can finally see the truth that God exists. That there is evidence which can be presented and an argument can be made to show why people believe God exists. However, you really don't care about that because you do not want to believe. Or else you would educate yourself and come to your own conclusions.

There is a difference between faith in Christianity and other faiths and that only one is the truth and that is the Word of God in the Bible. You act like you already know that Christianity doesn't deal with facts. Nothing can be further from the truth. Atheists are usually wrong.

Ah, so the "proof" is just that you believe, therefore it must be true.

And other people believe and they're wrong because you don't believe it's true.

So, if I say "I believe that Kim Jong-Un is the president of the US", it's true simply because I believe it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

When you can prove it, I'm right here.

There is a difference between faith and fact.
.

I can prove you are agnostic. You still are ignorant. I just got through saying there is no proof, but through faith one can finally see the truth that God exists. That there is evidence which can be presented and an argument can be made to show why people believe God exists. However, you really don't care about that because you do not want to believe. Or else you would educate yourself and come to your own conclusions.

There is a difference between faith in Christianity and other faiths and that only one is the truth and that is the Word of God in the Bible. You act like you already know that Christianity doesn't deal with facts. Nothing can be further from the truth. Atheists are usually wrong.

We humans have always created gods - sometimes multiple gods at one time - to provide us with guidance, comfort and answers.

Believers of these various gods have always been convinced, down to their very bones, that they had The Answer and that everyone else was just wrong.

Okay. That's fine. That still has never made those various gods real. And if you really don't see the difference between fact & faith, there's nothing I can say.
.

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

 

[SweetSue92]

I can prove you are agnostic. You still are ignorant. I just got through saying there is no proof, but through faith one can finally see the truth that God exists. That there is evidence which can be presented and an argument can be made to show why people believe God exists. However, you really don't care about that because you do not want to believe. Or else you would educate yourself and come to your own conclusions.

There is a difference between faith in Christianity and other faiths and that only one is the truth and that is the Word of God in the Bible. You act like you already know that Christianity doesn't deal with facts. Nothing can be further from the truth. Atheists are usually wrong.

We humans have always created gods - sometimes multiple gods at one time - to provide us with guidance, comfort and answers.

Believers of these various gods have always been convinced, down to their very bones, that they had The Answer and that everyone else was just wrong.

Okay. That's fine. That still has never made those various gods real. And if you really don't see the difference between fact & faith, there's nothing I can say.
.

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

It would have been a start. But there is not even that for the Norse gods.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

I'm not on any kind of search. If something presents itself, great. Until then, I'm perfectly comfy assuming that I'll never know The Answer.
.

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

 

[SweetSue92]

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

I'm not on any kind of search. If something presents itself, great. Until then, I'm perfectly comfy assuming that I'll never know The Answer.
.

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

 

[frigidweirdo]

We humans have always created gods - sometimes multiple gods at one time - to provide us with guidance, comfort and answers.

Believers of these various gods have always been convinced, down to their very bones, that they had The Answer and that everyone else was just wrong.

Okay. That's fine. That still has never made those various gods real. And if you really don't see the difference between fact & faith, there's nothing I can say.
.

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

It would have been a start. But there is not even that for the Norse gods.

I thought you might get the little in joke there.

Basically Jesus could have just been a fucking wacko making up shit, telling people complete crap.

I mean, these people exist. An ex-coworker from Jersey was like that. "North and South Korea have signed a peace treat", I went onto the news and found out they hadn't, then told her, and she wouldn't believe me.

She had no evidence that it had happened, but told everyone it had. Even when presented with the reality, she refused to accept it.

So, having some guy claiming to be the son of God merely proves that there can be wackos out there. It doesn't prove anything about there being a God.

Different religions make their own "truths". Just because Christianity and Islam went with prophets doesn't make them any more real than any of the other make belief systems out there.

Your argument is a non-existent argument. You're taking what exists in Christianity and then you're trying to shape it into something that resembles and argument, but it doesn't work. You have a square peg in the shape of a town half in Belgium and half in Holland.

 

[Taz]

In Exodus 12:29, god strikes down every first born. So if you don't want pain and suffering, my suggestion is not to believe in god until your children are adults. Either that or destroy their birth certificates, god doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

[SweetSue92]

True, we have always invented gods. Many religions, however, know their gods are invented--or at least strongly suspect they are. IOW, they're stories, and they know it.

So maybe start by dividing up the faiths that are mythology and the ones who claim they're not.

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

It would have been a start. But there is not even that for the Norse gods.

I thought you might get the little in joke there.

Basically Jesus could have just been a fucking wacko making up shit, telling people complete crap.

I mean, these people exist. An ex-coworker from Jersey was like that. "North and South Korea have signed a peace treat", I went onto the news and found out they hadn't, then told her, and she wouldn't believe me.

She had no evidence that it had happened, but told everyone it had. Even when presented with the reality, she refused to accept it.

So, having some guy claiming to be the son of God merely proves that there can be wackos out there. It doesn't prove anything about there being a God.

Different religions make their own "truths". Just because Christianity and Islam went with prophets doesn't make them any more real than any of the other make belief systems out there.

Your argument is a non-existent argument. You're taking what exists in Christianity and then you're trying to shape it into something that resembles and argument, but it doesn't work. You have a square peg in the shape of a town half in Belgium and half in Holland.

Okay so you recognize that you are viewing Science as a religion? Because you're really putting your faith in it. Same with Trump Resistance see. He's the devil.

Before we get to the other stuff, do you realize that these things are operating like a faith in your life?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm not on any kind of search. If something presents itself, great. Until then, I'm perfectly comfy assuming that I'll never know The Answer.
.

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

 

[Taz]

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

It would have been a start. But there is not even that for the Norse gods.

I thought you might get the little in joke there.

Basically Jesus could have just been a fucking wacko making up shit, telling people complete crap.

I mean, these people exist. An ex-coworker from Jersey was like that. "North and South Korea have signed a peace treat", I went onto the news and found out they hadn't, then told her, and she wouldn't believe me.

She had no evidence that it had happened, but told everyone it had. Even when presented with the reality, she refused to accept it.

So, having some guy claiming to be the son of God merely proves that there can be wackos out there. It doesn't prove anything about there being a God.

Different religions make their own "truths". Just because Christianity and Islam went with prophets doesn't make them any more real than any of the other make belief systems out there.

Your argument is a non-existent argument. You're taking what exists in Christianity and then you're trying to shape it into something that resembles and argument, but it doesn't work. You have a square peg in the shape of a town half in Belgium and half in Holland.

Okay so you recognize that you are viewing Science as a religion? Because you're really putting your faith in it. Same with Trump Resistance see. He's the devil.

Before we get to the other stuff, do you realize that these things are operating like a faith in your life?

Scientific experiments can be repeated. And science corrects itself when the need arises because of new facts. Not so much for a religion.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Tough to tell them apart, and either way, I don't have proof that any of them actually exist.

Hey, I'm open to anything. When I become convinced of something, I'll run with it.
.

There is no evidence that the Norse gods exist, for example. It is mythology. There is plenty of evidence that people worshipped the Norse gods, but no historical evidence for their existence.

There is historical evidence for the man Jesus Christ, however, that historians accept. Most historians accept the existence of a man named Jesus. They do not accept the existence of god named Odin, just for starters. So you can start with that.

So, had there been some person who said "I am the son of Odin on this Earth", that'd have been evidence that Odin exists?

It would have been a start. But there is not even that for the Norse gods.

I thought you might get the little in joke there.

Basically Jesus could have just been a fucking wacko making up shit, telling people complete crap.

I mean, these people exist. An ex-coworker from Jersey was like that. "North and South Korea have signed a peace treat", I went onto the news and found out they hadn't, then told her, and she wouldn't believe me.

She had no evidence that it had happened, but told everyone it had. Even when presented with the reality, she refused to accept it.

So, having some guy claiming to be the son of God merely proves that there can be wackos out there. It doesn't prove anything about there being a God.

Different religions make their own "truths". Just because Christianity and Islam went with prophets doesn't make them any more real than any of the other make belief systems out there.

Your argument is a non-existent argument. You're taking what exists in Christianity and then you're trying to shape it into something that resembles and argument, but it doesn't work. You have a square peg in the shape of a town half in Belgium and half in Holland.

Okay so you recognize that you are viewing Science as a religion? Because you're really putting your faith in it. Same with Trump Resistance see. He's the devil.

Before we get to the other stuff, do you realize that these things are operating like a faith in your life?

No, I don't view Science as a religion. See my previous post.

I don't put my faith in much these days.

Especially what random people on the internet say.

 

[SweetSue92]

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

Of course. They're nice rules. They're great actually. But religion can be an article of worship or something to which someone puts extreme importance. Science is just a quest to figure out how things work. If that something that you think you should worship--or that will give you all the answer to all of life's questions--well there you are.

The Trump thing--that's the moral question since 2016. People are measuring their morality, and others, based on Trump. That's how utterly lost we are. I just wake up every day and shake my head, I do.

Imagine giving over your human agency, your moral compass, to a real estate tycoon from New York who became president. I never would. But you do you, as the kids say.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

Of course. They're nice rules. They're great actually. But religion can be an article of worship or something to which someone puts extreme importance. Science is just a quest to figure out how things work. If that something that you think you should worship--or that will give you all the answer to all of life's questions--well there you are.

The Trump thing--that's the moral question since 2016. People are measuring their morality, and others, based on Trump. That's how utterly lost we are. I just wake up every day and shake my head, I do.

Imagine giving over your human agency, your moral compass, to a real estate tycoon from New York who became president. I never would. But you do you, as the kids say.

Religion can be different things to different people, as can science. Science is about logic, religion is about make belief.

Ricky Gervais said. If you burned all the books, science books would be written again the same, but religious books would be different every time.

Yes, morals. Are religious people moral? No way are they. They vote for Trump, they support war, they do bad things all the time.

So what does it prove when religious people are doing whatever they like?

Get this, the top something like 40 countries in the world for murder rate are all Christian, or maybe one not so Christian country in there. The top 50 cities for murder are all in Christian countries.

Go figure.

 

[SweetSue92]

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

Of course. They're nice rules. They're great actually. But religion can be an article of worship or something to which someone puts extreme importance. Science is just a quest to figure out how things work. If that something that you think you should worship--or that will give you all the answer to all of life's questions--well there you are.

The Trump thing--that's the moral question since 2016. People are measuring their morality, and others, based on Trump. That's how utterly lost we are. I just wake up every day and shake my head, I do.

Imagine giving over your human agency, your moral compass, to a real estate tycoon from New York who became president. I never would. But you do you, as the kids say.

Religion can be different things to different people, as can science. Science is about logic, religion is about make belief.

Ricky Gervais said. If you burned all the books, science books would be written again the same, but religious books would be different every time.

Yes, morals. Are religious people moral? No way are they. They vote for Trump, they support war, they do bad things all the time.

So what does it prove when religious people are doing whatever they like?

Get this, the top something like 40 countries in the world for murder rate are all Christian, or maybe one not so Christian country in there. The top 50 cities for murder are all in Christian countries.

Go figure.

Okay this right here is a religious statement:

Yes, morals. Are religious people moral? No way are they. They vote for Trump, they support war, they do bad things all the time.

Social Justice is your religion then, with a side dish of Secular Science thrown in. The "voting for Trump" thing as amoral is just strange, as strange as you think Christianity is, but even stranger to be honest. That it doesn't occur to you as strange should probably jar you a little bit.

 

[SweetSue92]

That seems incurious, doesn't it?

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

And by the way: "accepting possibilities" is the same as faith.

Science is about facts, what is known, what can be proven. Not "possibilities". That's faith.

 

[night_son]

Well, I have great curiosity in science and space exploration, and I pay quite a bit of attention to that. If I watch one thing on teevee more than anything else, it's that topic.

Religion seems pretty static to me. I don't see a lot that makes me curious. But science? I'm very hopeful many great discoveries will be made during my lifetime.
.

I like science as a passing habit and space too. I'm not in the sciences though. But the bigger we expect science to be in our lives, it seems, the bigger the mistakes seem to be.

Probably because people have been brought up to "believe". Science isn't about believing, it isn't about deciding something's convenient and running with it, regardless of the facts.

If you understand how science works and use your brain to function with logic, the better things get.

The reality is democracy doesn't work when people get taken in by charlatans like Trump.

How funny. So you have religious belief in Science and in the Resistance. LOL

Not at all.

I don't believe. I accept the possibilities that are out there.

For example: We could potentially be a computer simulation.

But that doesn't change science. Science is the rules of whatever it is we're living in. There are rules and we know it. We can see kids testing these rules. Seeing what happens and what doesn't happen. You jump in the air, you know you're going to fall down. The scientists say this is called "gravity".

Doesn't matter the label. It's something we understand. Then as we get older we know satellites are floating around in space, that rockets with lots of fuel put them there. We have telecommunications that tell us the planet is round, and by going to different places we know that down is not pointing in the same direction in terms of the sun, or the galaxy or whatever, but in terms of the center of the Earth.

It's stuff we know because we experience it every day. There's other science we trust others to tell the truth, but most of that is so complex we don't actually need to know the rules. A little child doesn't need to know the rules of soccer in order to kick a ball.

And by the way: "accepting possibilities" is the same as faith.

Science is about facts, what is known, what can be proven. Not "possibilities". That's faith.

Doubting one's own belief is synonymous with defying one's own father, and, in turn--defying the Father, and the Logos within and without. The truth (logic, Logos) burns ears and tongue of the self-identified non-believer, because realization that the father and the Father's words were truth and spoke wisdom all along is a terrifying, blinding--briefly and wonderful experience; an epiphany, really, one the fake-atheist will twist and turn and squirm to avoid having for years, and sometimes: for a lifetime.

They all believe. Many of them need us to believe less in order to keep them company, for if they can shake our faith, in doing so justifies their own lapse in belief. Kind of like a blanket or pacifier. Personally, the idea of being an adult pacifier for trembling, fussy so-called atheists grows less appealing daily.