Debate Now Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?

[dblack]

they are historically failed ideas



your economic ideas are trash from the short bus school

Libertarian concepts are a component of political thought.

How they get translated into "ideas" and applied is all a matter of context.

The history of the U.S. is littered with the "failed" ideas of both parties.

Your assertion is meaningless.

they base their economic ideas on the Austrian school which is a joke

Which libertarian ideas are based on the Austrian school of economics?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

they are historically failed ideas



your economic ideas are trash from the short bus school

Libertarian concepts are a component of political thought.

How they get translated into "ideas" and applied is all a matter of context.

The history of the U.S. is littered with the "failed" ideas of both parties.

Your assertion is meaningless.

they base their economic ideas on the Austrian school which is a joke

The joke is this post.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Non sequitur response.

It is a leading question designed to reveal a truth about the topic. If you answer it.

If you want an answer to your question you will need to answer the questions that I asked first.

Your post seemed more of a Shot Gun Logical Fallacy then real questions.

Proving once again that Libertarians cannot defend their belief in their failed dogma.

I'm not a libertarian.

And you did not address my constructive criticism about your post.

What was the controlling central authority of the Barn Raising?

Non sequitur response.

It is a leading question designed to reveal a truth about the topic. If you answer it.

If you want an answer to your question you will need to answer the questions that I asked first.

Your post seemed more of a Shot Gun Logical Fallacy then real questions.

Proving once again that Libertarians cannot defend their belief in their failed dogma.

There is no more proof their dogma has failed than there is proof liberal dogma has failed.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Once again, I'll address this.......

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

This is from Wiki.....it's no better or worse......than anything else.

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgment.[1][2]

Libertarians generally share a skepticism of authority; however, they diverge on the scope of their opposition to existing political and economic systems. Various schools of libertarian thought offer a range of views regarding the legitimate functions of state and private power, often calling to restrict or even to wholly dissolve coercive social institutions. Rather than embodying a singular, rigid systematic theory or ideology, libertarianism has been applied as an umbrella term to a wide range of sometimes discordant political ideas through modern history.

This is from the Libertarian website.....

The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.

There is nothing there to support the stupidty of the claim in the OP. Yes they don't want laws to infringe upon individual rights (yours or mine). There is nothing wrong with that.

But there is nothing in there that says they don't to obey laws passed by elected majorities (any more than anyone else does not want to).

What ?

Libertarians want to be free to murder ?

This whole argument is stupid.

The article quoted in the OP is really really really stupid.

And the idea that libertarians have to defend these made up assertions is beyond stupid.

 

[Idadunno]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

Libertarianism is roughly 17th century England without the (then) conservative party (government regulation pushers) or monarchy (taxation) to keep them semi-straight. The devastation they did to the people and environment were horrendous, and that was with some regulation. If they were free to do as they pleased, they would have castles and we would address them as "my lord."

 

[Idadunno]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

Interesting. I never realized we were a third world country before LBJ came along.

A third world nation is a nation that is not aligned with a power country like the US or Russia--capitalism or communism. The term is a Cold War term. Developing countries are countries that are developing their economic status, failed states are nations that cannot sustain themselves. The US is none of these.

 

[Idadunno]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

Interesting. I never realized we were a third world country before LBJ came along.

Actually, it was Reagan who turned us into a debtor nation but I don't want to derail the thread.

Actually, the American Revolution turned us into a debtor nation. Every war puts the US deeper in debt that we never actually climb out of. Presidents' administrations and Congress make it worse when they implement programs without raising taxes to pay for them. Britain survived the Great Depression better than we did because they had taxes to keep them afloat. The US debt started at our inception--but that is another thread so... ignore me

 

[Debra K]

"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.

Now this a claim that is very interesting.

Yes, because communism is smart enough to understand that abject poverty breeds crime which ends up costing the state far more than social welfare programs.

Interesting Discussion ... Bookmark

 

[Derideo_Te]

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does!

Platform Libertarian Party

Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.

Now this a claim that is very interesting.

Yes, because communism is smart enough to understand that abject poverty breeds crime which ends up costing the state far more than social welfare programs.

Interesting Discussion ... Bookmark

Thank you.

Feel free to contribute your thoughts and opinions.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

I've noticed the assaults on the article from the OP have gone unchallenged.

I wonder why ?