Debate Now Boxes and the Art of Thinking Outside of Them

Capstone

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We have nine labeled but empty boxes of various shapes and sizes scattered around in our attic. Each "box" is a concept unto itself. For the purpose of maximizing usable space in our attic, we need to store the smaller ones inside of the larger ones (Russian-nesting-dolls style). Our task then, is to assess the "size" of each concept in order to determine which boxes could contain others, and ultimately which one has the capacity to contain all the others.

Our one and only guideline is that the determination of "size" must be made solely on the basis of the labels.

In no particular order, the nine labels are as follows:

  • science
  • mathematics
  • language
  • religion
  • philosophy
  • belief
  • knowledge
  • emotion
  • perception

Discussion on the meanings of the listed words is not only allowed but encouraged.

To get the ball rolling, I wonder whether "belief" could contain "knowledge"...or vice versa? :eusa_think:
 

Book of Jeremiah

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This is astonishing. Why can't you think outside of the box concerning faith in Jesus Christ? Did you think there would not be the greatest attack on your faith to keep you from believing the simplicity of the Gospel, Capstone?

Seriously. I'm astonished to read this title. When you wake up one day? You will be too!
 

Luddly Neddite

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Capstone

This is one of the most interesting OPs I've seen here.

The problem I'm having is that every time I think I would put A into B, another idea pops up that makes me think I would put D into R but then R can't hold E and so on.

Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.

Very cool.



Jeremiah

I didn't see where Capstone said that. Could you explain more about what you mean?
 
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Capstone

Capstone

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This is astonishing. Why can't you think outside of the box concerning faith in Jesus Christ? Did you think there would not be the greatest attack on your faith to keep you from believing the simplicity of the Gospel, Capstone?...
Stay with me here, Jeri. I value your input on the challenge laid out in the OP (actually had you in mind when I threw "religion" into the mix), but I do hope you'll make an effort to remain true to that challenge.

There are no objectively right or wrong answers here. It's not even a given that some of the concepts are compatible enough to encompass or be encompassed by one another. It's just a thought experiment designed to promote discussion. Come out from behind your pulpit for a change, and have fun with it.
 

Foxfyre

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We have nine labeled but empty boxes of various shapes and sizes scattered around in our attic. Each "box" is a concept unto itself. For the purpose of maximizing usable space in our attic, we need to store the smaller ones inside of the larger ones (Russian-nesting-dolls style). Our task then, is to assess the "size" of each concept in order to determine which boxes could contain others, and ultimately which one has the capacity to contain all the others.

Our one and only guideline is that the determination of "size" must be made solely on the basis of the labels.

In no particular order, the nine labels are as follows:

  • science
  • mathematics
  • language
  • religion
  • philosophy
  • belief
  • knowledge
  • emotion
  • perception

Discussion on the meanings of the listed words is not only allowed but encouraged.

To get the ball rolling, I wonder whether "belief" could contain "knowledge"...or vice versa? :eusa_think:
I don't know if I am breaking the rules of the exercise in how I solved the problem, but here goes:

Start with the Perception and Philosophy boxes placed side by side--break down the touching partitions to create one larger box as these two things cannot be realistically separated.

Inside the re-engineered Perception and Philosophy box place the Belief box. What we perceive and reason is what we believe.

Place the Religion box inside the belief box, but religion is not necessarily limited to our understanding of God or gods but rather is based on where our heart and soul rests or what we hold deep conviction about.

The science and mathematics boxes are not easily re-engineered into one box but cannot realistically exist without each other. So I would place those boxes side by side inside the Religion box, again defining religion as conviction and not necessarily our belief about God or gods.

Alas, I can't find a place in all that to put emotion and language so will just butt these up against the largest box to apply to all.
 
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Capstone

Capstone

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...The problem I'm having is that every time I think I would put A into B, another idea pops up that makes me think I would put D into R but then R can't hold E and so on. ...
I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:

Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
Right. Perception in the empirical sense (as in, what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch), or in the more figurative sense (as a synonym for perspectival belief)? And which sense of the word is more primal? Was conscious awareness (unorganized thought in the womb) integral to sense perception, or was it the other way around? ETC., ETC.
 

Foxfyre

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...The problem I'm having is that every time I think I would put A into B, another idea pops up that makes me think I would put D into R but then R can't hold E and so on. ...
I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:

Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
Right. Perception in the empirical sense (as in, what we see, hear, smell, taste, and touch), or in the more figurative sense (as a synonym for perspectival belief)? And which sense of the word is more primal? Was conscious awareness (unorganized thought in the womb) integral to sense perception, or was it the other way around? ETC., ETC.
IMO, belief is your perception of what you experience or reason--which is why I put it directly inside the perception/philosophy box. I see it as synonymous with knowledge, but the two are not necessarily the same thing as one might be infallible and the other deeply flawed.

An illustration, taken from a publication article that has been bantered about extensively on message boards recently: A nurse was seconds from administering a vaccine to a child when the child had a seizure. Had that vaccination happened moments before the child had the seizure, there is nothing on Earth that would have convinced the parents of that child that the vaccine did not trigger the seizure.

In this case knowledge was that a seizure and a vaccine happened in close proximity to each other. Belief is what is concluded by that knowledge. In one case, because the seizure happened before the vaccine, it was unrelated to the vaccine. In the other case, because the seizure happened immediately after the vaccine, the vaccine is believed to have caused it.

So in my box solving formula, I would have to allow that all the boxes inside my belief box could possibly contain things that may have to be discarded.
 
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Book of Jeremiah

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Thank you, Capstone. I didn't realize this was the debate now forum. I'll be reading. Enjoy your debate. - Jeri
 

Derideo_Te

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We have nine labeled but empty boxes of various shapes and sizes scattered around in our attic. Each "box" is a concept unto itself. For the purpose of maximizing usable space in our attic, we need to store the smaller ones inside of the larger ones (Russian-nesting-dolls style). Our task then, is to assess the "size" of each concept in order to determine which boxes could contain others, and ultimately which one has the capacity to contain all the others.

Our one and only guideline is that the determination of "size" must be made solely on the basis of the labels.

In no particular order, the nine labels are as follows:

  • science
  • mathematics
  • language
  • religion
  • philosophy
  • belief
  • knowledge
  • emotion
  • perception

Discussion on the meanings of the listed words is not only allowed but encouraged.

To get the ball rolling, I wonder whether "belief" could contain "knowledge"...or vice versa? :eusa_think:
:thup: to the OP for a fascinating topic.

Math is the language of science and science is how we ascertain whether our perceptions are knowledge or mere beliefs.

Religions are primitive forms of philosophy that were developed in the absence of knowledge to explain the emotions we experience when in a spiritual state.

So given that I am classifying math as the universal language that would be the largest box in which science resides alongside language. Inside the science box I place knowledge and inside that I place the boxes of perceptions and beliefs side by side. Emotions go inside the perceptions box together with philosophy. The beliefs box contains religion.

That is my first attempt.

One thing is patently clear from this exercise. The importance one places on each of the labels determines the size of the boxes. I have no doubt that others would have different sizes to the ones I chose.
 
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Alex.

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Nice OP adds relevance and order in our daily lives and helps prioritize what is important. Nice exercise.
 

BlackSand

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I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:
Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
I don't know ... I can pretty much work it out with the exception of "emotion" ... I cannot figure out where to put that box.
To me ... Perception can be placed if you just make a decision as to where you think it should go ... Being a "wildcard" there wouldn't be a wrong answer for where it would go.

Any hints on "emotion" would appreciated though.

.
 

Foxfyre

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I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:
Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
I don't know ... I can pretty much work it out with the exception of "emotion" ... I cannot figure out where to put that box.
To me ... Perception can be placed if you just make a decision as to where you think it should go ... Being a "wildcard" there wouldn't be a wrong answer for where it would go.

Any hints on "emotion" would appreciated though.

.
I couldn't find a box suitable for either emotion or language. And that in itself is interesting. :)
 

Alex.

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I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:
Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
I don't know ... I can pretty much work it out with the exception of "emotion" ... I cannot figure out where to put that box.
To me ... Perception can be placed if you just make a decision as to where you think it should go ... Being a "wildcard" there wouldn't be a wrong answer for where it would go.

Any hints on "emotion" would appreciated though.

.

Any decision based solely on emotion may be rife with lands mines, rethinking and an exit strategy. So by adding perspective or science or math etc brings it into a clearly place. In other words, the old saying falling in love is beyond our control, staying in love is a choice.
 

BlackSand

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I know exactly what you mean. :laugh:

I keep bumping into a sort of chicken V. egg thing with some of the more closely related concepts. For instance, do I know how to distinguish between what I 'know' and what I 'believe', or is my "knowledge" in that regard really just another belief? :dunno:
Luddly Neddite said:
...Oh and, "perception" is the wild card.
I don't know ... I can pretty much work it out with the exception of "emotion" ... I cannot figure out where to put that box.
To me ... Perception can be placed if you just make a decision as to where you think it should go ... Being a "wildcard" there wouldn't be a wrong answer for where it would go.

Any hints on "emotion" would appreciated though.

.
I couldn't find a box suitable for either emotion or language. And that in itself is interesting. :)
The best I can come up with would put emotion in the smallest box.
Otherwise ... Big to Small ... I have: Knowledge, Language, Science, Mathematics, Perception, Philosophy, Religion, Belief and then Emotion.

.
 

Alex.

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I have

Belief

Knowledge

Perception

Philosophy

Language

Emotion

Mathematics

Science

Religion
 

BlackSand

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Yes Blacksand it is big on top.

Mine breaks down like this …


Knowledge … Everything we know and the accumulation of all of our experiences.

Language … The ability to access, facilitate and communicate those experiences.

Science … The ability validate and add structure to the process.

Mathematics … The ability to set a standard with a definite point (in math there is a “right” answer).

Perception … How we interpret what we have.

Philosophy … How we correlate those interpretations and apply principles.

Religion … How what we have interpreted becomes internally grounded.

Belief … How we allow our interpretation to influence our activities.


Emotion … The return of our efforts and I didn’t have any other place to put it.



How does your flowchart go?


.
 

Derideo_Te

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I am seeing the early signs of a trend emerging. Need more posts to confirm it though.
 

Alex.

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Yes Blacksand it is big on top.

Mine breaks down like this …


Knowledge … Everything we know and the accumulation of all of our experiences.

Language … The ability to access, facilitate and communicate those experiences.

Science … The ability validate and add structure to the process.

Mathematics … The ability to set a standard with a definite point (in math there is a “right” answer).

Perception … How we interpret what we have.

Philosophy … How we correlate those interpretations and apply principles.

Religion … How what we have interpreted becomes internally grounded.

Belief … How we allow our interpretation to influence our activities.


Emotion … The return of our efforts and I didn’t have any other place to put it.



How does your flowchart go?


.
^^^^^^
Nice and well thought out


_____________________________

Belief - I am, therefore, I believe I have a good and valid purpose on this earth.

Knowledge - I seek the knowledge for what that purpose is.

Perception - I listen to my instincts and my inner voice to validate my beliefs

Philosophy - My philosophy is formed, in part, by my experience

Language - I communicate my beliefs, knowledge, perceptions, and philosophy and "listen" to others communicate theirs.

Emotion - I am passionate about my beliefs after they have been validated.

Mathematics - Life is many ways is an equation for example for every action there is a reaction (Karma)

Science - can help to prove or disprove my beliefs.

Religion - a system of man-made applications established to homogenize society, not to be confused with spirituality.
 

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