Is "Government Motors" screwing with Toyota?

[Ragnar]

I would not go that far just yet, but such an outstanding object lesson in the dangers of government power can't be let go without comment...

First a little history. Back in the late 80's the Audi 5000 (and other auto's) was suspected of the same "sticky gas pedal" problem that may be a factor in some Toyota models today. Back then they were called SAI's or "sudden Acceloration incidents". After a massive government investigation SAI's were given a more, shall we say, accurate discription... "pedal misapplication". P. J. O'Rourke wrote about that history in a chapter of his book "Parlament of Whores". See short exerpt... (a must read for vital context)
Parliament of Whores: A Lone ... - Google Books

Moving on into modern day we have something that deserves a very close look. First however, for the record, Toyota has admited there may be a problem with the floor mats in some vehicles. At issue though, is if the "sticky gas pedal" "problem" is anything more than that and if a recall of over two million cars is justified. Is this an issue of saftey or an issue of government putting it's fat thumb on the scale to aid a "public" car company over a successful private one. (yeah, yeah in a "mixed economy it's all a matter of degree)

From the New York Times:
Safety Agency Rebukes Toyota Over Floor-Mat Issue - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

Toyota and the safety administration issued a warning in September to the owners of the Toyota and Lexus vehicles to remove the driver-side floor mat because it could jam the accelerator pedal. The warning was issued after the problem led to the deaths of four people in a Lexus in August in California.

Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, an advocacy group, said he could not recall any other case in which the safety agency had publicly chastised an automaker in such a manner.

For obvious reasons this is big news in Detroit:
Toyota, NHTSA talking about pedal fix, LaHood says | detnews.com | The Detroit News

"Toyota executives and technical staff met today with officials at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and presented a remedy regarding sticking accelerator pedals on certain models, which NHTSA is examining. Toyota will continue to work to address this situation for our customers as quickly as possible," spokeswoman Martha Voss said.

LaHood declined to criticize Toyota's conduct.

Toyota stopped selling eight models that accounted for 60 percent of its sales because they were required to do so under the law.

"They are doing what they are supposed to do," LaHood said.

LaHood didn't repeat the comments he made to a Chicago radio station Wednesday that the government had to insist that Toyota stop selling the recalled vehicles until they had a fix.

The last link goes to a NB page with a video embed of CNBC's "Power Lunch" where host Michelle Caruso-Cabrera and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala) talk about the recall:
Media Oversight: Is GM Stakeholder Federal Government Playing Politics with Toyota Recall? | NewsBusters.org
(the video is one minute long)

"Ray LaHood is on the record saying that he told them they had to do this," Caruso-Cabrera said. "They had to stop selling. Are you looking into whether or not that was absolutely necessary? Are you convinced this was necessary?"

Sessions expressed his concern over that possibility and noted the amount of money the federal government had recently pumped into GMAC, the auto financing arm of General Motors.

"Well, you know - we were in until late last night and I hadn't heard that," Sessions said. "I worry about those kind of things. I worry about Ford working hard and having to compete against the federal government. With an unlimited - they just gave $3 billion more to GMAC. The President's got to be careful here. He can not be playing politics and union politics or regional politics with the economy of this country."

There is no evidence that I am aware of that says someting screwy is going on. However, this is an all to obvious example of how complex things can get (and how quickly they can get so) when the government is both your competitor, your protector and your watch dog. Imagine trying to run a "mixed economy" even in a land of benevolently genious political regulators. Now imagine running a mixed economy with the ones we do have.

 

[Vel]

I would not go that far just yet, but such an outstanding object lesson in the dangers of government power can't be let go without comment...

First a little history. Back in the late 80's the Audi 5000 (and other auto's) was suspected of the same "sticky gas pedal" problem that may be a factor in some Toyota models today. Back then they were called SAI's or "sudden Acceloration incidents". After a massive government investigation SAI's were given a more, shall we say, accurate discription... "pedal misapplication". P. J. O'Rourke wrote about that history in a chapter of his book "Parlament of Whores". See short exerpt... (a must read for vital context)
Parliament of Whores: A Lone ... - Google Books

Moving on into modern day we have something that deserves a very close look. First however, for the record, Toyota has admited there may be a problem with the floor mats in some vehicles. At issue though, is if the "sticky gas pedal" "problem" is anything more than that and if a recall of over two million cars is justified. Is this an issue of saftey or an issue of government putting it's fat thumb on the scale to aid a "public" car company over a successful private one. (yeah, yeah in a "mixed economy it's all a matter of degree)

From the New York Times:
Safety Agency Rebukes Toyota Over Floor-Mat Issue - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

Toyota and the safety administration issued a warning in September to the owners of the Toyota and Lexus vehicles to remove the driver-side floor mat because it could jam the accelerator pedal. The warning was issued after the problem led to the deaths of four people in a Lexus in August in California.

Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, an advocacy group, said he could not recall any other case in which the safety agency had publicly chastised an automaker in such a manner.

For obvious reasons this is big news in Detroit:
Toyota, NHTSA talking about pedal fix, LaHood says | detnews.com | The Detroit News

"Toyota executives and technical staff met today with officials at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and presented a remedy regarding sticking accelerator pedals on certain models, which NHTSA is examining. Toyota will continue to work to address this situation for our customers as quickly as possible," spokeswoman Martha Voss said.

LaHood declined to criticize Toyota's conduct.

Toyota stopped selling eight models that accounted for 60 percent of its sales because they were required to do so under the law.

"They are doing what they are supposed to do," LaHood said.

LaHood didn't repeat the comments he made to a Chicago radio station Wednesday that the government had to insist that Toyota stop selling the recalled vehicles until they had a fix.

The last link goes to a NB page with a video embed of CNBC's "Power Lunch" where host Michelle Caruso-Cabrera and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala) talk about the recall:
Media Oversight: Is GM Stakeholder Federal Government Playing Politics with Toyota Recall? | NewsBusters.org
(the video is one minute long)

"Ray LaHood is on the record saying that he told them they had to do this," Caruso-Cabrera said. "They had to stop selling. Are you looking into whether or not that was absolutely necessary? Are you convinced this was necessary?"

Sessions expressed his concern over that possibility and noted the amount of money the federal government had recently pumped into GMAC, the auto financing arm of General Motors.

"Well, you know - we were in until late last night and I hadn't heard that," Sessions said. "I worry about those kind of things. I worry about Ford working hard and having to compete against the federal government. With an unlimited - they just gave $3 billion more to GMAC. The President's got to be careful here. He can not be playing politics and union politics or regional politics with the economy of this country."

There is no evidence that I am aware of that says someting screwy is going on. However, this is an all to obvious example of how complex things can get (and how quickly they can get so) when the government is both your competitor, your protector and your watch dog. Imagine trying to run a "mixed economy" even in a land of benevolently genious political regulators. Now imagine running a mixed economy with the ones we do have.

This really ought to worry people that value the free market. No American company should have to compete against the American government.

""Well, you know - we were in until late last night and I hadn't heard that," Sessions said. "I worry about those kind of things. I worry about Ford working hard and having to compete against the federal government. With an unlimited - they just gave $3 billion more to GMAC. The President's got to be careful here. He can not be playing politics and union politics or regional politics with the economy of this country."

 

[Dr Gregg]

its just a product of their supplier of the parts screwing up

 

[Ragnar]

its just a product of their supplier of the parts screwing up

That may be but it isn't the point at all. See: first two links. When the Transportation Secretary (LaHood) goes on Chicago radio and suggest Toyota was not acting above board (a statement he walked back from) or when the "executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, an advocacy group, said he could not recall any other case in which the safety agency had publicly chastised an automaker in such a manner" makes comments like that, the lines get blurry.

The proper role of government in a free market (or largely free market) is to protect citizens from force or fraud. (citizens being both sellers and buyers) The above example is just to illustrate one possible scenerio. Here is another current GM example:

Under Restructuring, GM To Build More Cars Overseas
Under Restructuring, GM To Build More Cars Overseas - washingtonpost.com

The U.S. government is pouring billions into General Motors in hopes of reviving the domestic economy, but when the automaker completes its restructuring plan, many of the company's new jobs will be filled by workers overseas.

According to an outline the company has been sharing privately with Washington legislators, the number of cars that GM sells in the United States and builds in Mexico, China and South Korea will roughly double.

(much more at link)

The problem here is how does a government that that put itself into the auto business make the best call as to how to best preform to get the taxpayers money back, keep market manipulation to a minimum (so as not to hurt other domestic auto companies not "bailed out"), protect the union, protect the consumer and keep foreign interest happy so they do not retaliate against us in some other way (or hurting American car sales overseas)?? Put a simple way, how does the government get out with our money back, doing the least harm in an industry the "professionals" could not get right?

Now that GM is out of the "free market" it is four square into the "political market".

 

[saveliberty]

I think you need to understand the problem better before you start a government conspiracy thread. In the past accelerators used a cable system to control the throttle. Normal operation meant pressure had to be applied in order to get the car to accelerate.

Today we have accelerator that work by position sensors.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h33.pdf

These sensors can be effected by mositure or other conditions. That is why it took awhile to figure out what was going on. Toyota has not indicated why the accelerators built for Japanese cars don't have the problem the US made ones do. Slightly different design of the sensor, different placement or another part which comes into contact or channels moisture toward the part. One news program mentioned that cost savings was a factor in using the US built part.

To me the question is, why are Americans put at risk and Japanese buyer protected?

 

[Ragnar]

I think you need to understand the problem better before you start a government conspiracy thread. In the past accelerators used a cable system to control the throttle. Normal operation meant pressure had to be applied in order to get the car to accelerate.

Today we have accelerator that work by position sensors.

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h33.pdf

These sensors can be effected by mositure or other conditions. That is why it took awhile to figure out what was going on. Toyota has not indicated why the accelerators built for Japanese cars don't have the problem the US made ones do. Slightly different design of the sensor, different placement or another part which comes into contact or channels moisture toward the part. One news program mentioned that cost savings was a factor in using the US built part.

To me the question is, why are Americans put at risk and Japanese buyer protected?

I allege no government conspiracy and went out of my way to say so in the OP... twice. I thought this particular example noteworthy because it is in the news and there is a history of these kinds of claims happening before. (which the government both "solved" and did so in it's proper role, though as the first link indicates, in the governments usual clumsy way)

To me the question is, why are Americans put at risk and Japanese buyer protected?

I would like to see evidence of some intent to "protect Japanese buyer's or put Americans at risk". We are in the middle of a giant recall which Toyota undertook to protect their American buyers as well as the reputation of the company. In any case you missed the point and might better understand the OP by way of the alternate example (jobs going overseas) that due to GM's "public" ownership is just another of the possiblities for abuse when the market gets manipulated.

 

[VaYank5150]

Please file this in the big round folder with the truther and birther BS papers....good grief!

 

[Dr Gregg]

Certainly sounds like a conspiracy theory, just because you claim you weren't, doesn't make it so. Was just hearing about the recalls this morning on the radio, and Toyota was blaming the maker of the defective part. No mention of a gov't conspiracy

 

[Ragnar]

Certainly sounds like a conspiracy theory, just because you claim you weren't, doesn't make it so. Was just hearing about the recalls this morning on the radio, and Toyota was blaming the maker of the defective part. No mention of a gov't conspiracy

For the slow....

I asked a provocative question in title which was answered in the negative in the OP. The idea was to provoke a debate on the free market and illustrate, by way of multiple examples, the abuse of power that is invited by manipulations of markets by governments.

For fucks sake, my first link went to an example in which previous cases of "sudden acceloration incidents" were proved not to be true. (by the government no less, acting in it's proper role, that being protecting the integrity of the market and not ownership of it)

 

[Yurt]

i don't think so. interestingly, all the toyota vehicles with the pedal issue are manufactured nearly 100% in the US (parts etc). i have two toyota vehicles that are 2008 and 2010 and both are NOT subject to recall. both are 80% japanese manufactured. the pedal at issue is actually made in the US.

the government has quickly approved toyota's fix for the problem.

now, it could be possible the government had a hand in this, but i just don't see it.

 

[Ragnar]

"How absolute the knave is! we must speak by the card, or equivocation will undo us." -WS

How can anyone who read the substance of the original post, see the thread title as anything other than a provacative metaphor? Especially after the book excerpt? I'm really asking. Raise your hand if you think this thread is about Toyota's gas pedal woe's.

 

[beowolfe]

I would not go that far just yet, but such an outstanding object lesson in the dangers of government power can't be let go without comment...

First a little history. Back in the late 80's the Audi 5000 (and other auto's) was suspected of the same "sticky gas pedal" problem that may be a factor in some Toyota models today. Back then they were called SAI's or "sudden Acceloration incidents". After a massive government investigation SAI's were given a more, shall we say, accurate discription... "pedal misapplication". P. J. O'Rourke wrote about that history in a chapter of his book "Parlament of Whores". See short exerpt... (a must read for vital context)
Parliament of Whores: A Lone ... - Google Books

Moving on into modern day we have something that deserves a very close look. First however, for the record, Toyota has admited there may be a problem with the floor mats in some vehicles. At issue though, is if the "sticky gas pedal" "problem" is anything more than that and if a recall of over two million cars is justified. Is this an issue of saftey or an issue of government putting it's fat thumb on the scale to aid a "public" car company over a successful private one. (yeah, yeah in a "mixed economy it's all a matter of degree)

From the New York Times:
Safety Agency Rebukes Toyota Over Floor-Mat Issue - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

Toyota and the safety administration issued a warning in September to the owners of the Toyota and Lexus vehicles to remove the driver-side floor mat because it could jam the accelerator pedal. The warning was issued after the problem led to the deaths of four people in a Lexus in August in California.

Clarence Ditlow, the executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, an advocacy group, said he could not recall any other case in which the safety agency had publicly chastised an automaker in such a manner.

For obvious reasons this is big news in Detroit:
Toyota, NHTSA talking about pedal fix, LaHood says | detnews.com | The Detroit News


The last link goes to a NB page with a video embed of CNBC's "Power Lunch" where host Michelle Caruso-Cabrera and Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala) talk about the recall:
Media Oversight: Is GM Stakeholder Federal Government Playing Politics with Toyota Recall? | NewsBusters.org
(the video is one minute long)

"Ray LaHood is on the record saying that he told them they had to do this," Caruso-Cabrera said. "They had to stop selling. Are you looking into whether or not that was absolutely necessary? Are you convinced this was necessary?"

Sessions expressed his concern over that possibility and noted the amount of money the federal government had recently pumped into GMAC, the auto financing arm of General Motors.

"Well, you know - we were in until late last night and I hadn't heard that," Sessions said. "I worry about those kind of things. I worry about Ford working hard and having to compete against the federal government. With an unlimited - they just gave $3 billion more to GMAC. The President's got to be careful here. He can not be playing politics and union politics or regional politics with the economy of this country."

There is no evidence that I am aware of that says someting screwy is going on. However, this is an all to obvious example of how complex things can get (and how quickly they can get so) when the government is both your competitor, your protector and your watch dog. Imagine trying to run a "mixed economy" even in a land of benevolently genious political regulators. Now imagine running a mixed economy with the ones we do have.

This really ought to worry people that value the free market. No American company should have to compete against the American government.

""Well, you know - we were in until late last night and I hadn't heard that," Sessions said. "I worry about those kind of things. I worry about Ford working hard and having to compete against the federal government. With an unlimited - they just gave $3 billion more to GMAC. The President's got to be careful here. He can not be playing politics and union politics or regional politics with the economy of this country."

Every autombile company that sells cars in the US has either directly or indirectly gotten government funds. And so far, GM is not setting any records. As for Toyota, it isn't the first time I've hear the federal government publically chastise a car company about a flawed product.

 

[Ragnar]

Every autombile company that sells cars in the US has either directly or indirectly gotten government funds. (except for the hundreds that were allowed to fail) And so far, GM is not setting any records.(Yes they are) As for Toyota, it isn't the first time I've hear the federal government publically chastise a car company about a flawed product.(you are not Clarence Ditlow)

History of U.S. Gov’t Bailouts - ProPublica
List of defunct United States automobile manufacturers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
C. Ditlow is from the OP, link already provided


Well since no one read the original post... or the further example of GM's cunundrum over using bailout money for hiring overseas workers... or understood that specific questions were tabled for anyone to ponder... or even understood that I would have been happy to engage with another, on the topic at hand, with whatever hypothetical one might have invented on the subject of possible harms caused by government interference in the free market... I'll leave you all with the following:

The Complete List of Godzilla Movies | Listology

 

[Borat]

These sensors can be effected by mositure or other conditions. That is why it took awhile to figure out what was going on. Toyota has not indicated why the accelerators built for Japanese cars don't have the problem the US made ones do. Slightly different design of the sensor, different placement or another part which comes into contact or channels moisture toward the part. One news program mentioned that cost savings was a factor in using the US built part.

only more reasons not to buy US built cars.

 

[saveliberty]

These sensors can be effected by mositure or other conditions. That is why it took awhile to figure out what was going on. Toyota has not indicated why the accelerators built for Japanese cars don't have the problem the US made ones do. Slightly different design of the sensor, different placement or another part which comes into contact or channels moisture toward the part. One news program mentioned that cost savings was a factor in using the US built part.

only more reasons not to buy US built cars.

Lose your job yet? Keep buying foreign.

 

[Darkwind]

Certainly sounds like a conspiracy theory, just because you claim you weren't, doesn't make it so. Was just hearing about the recalls this morning on the radio, and Toyota was blaming the maker of the defective part. No mention of a gov't conspiracy

For the slow....

I asked a provocative question in title which was answered in the negative in the OP. The idea was to provoke a debate on the free market and illustrate, by way of multiple examples, the abuse of power that is invited by manipulations of markets by governments.

For fucks sake, my first link went to an example in which previous cases of "sudden acceloration incidents" were proved not to be true. (by the government no less, acting in it's proper role, that being protecting the integrity of the market and not ownership of it)

Just to let you know. They are responding to a perception that you are attacking their messiah. Any form of debate ended when they thought you were attacking government. The wagons have been circled.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Actually, underemployed GM ninjas are sneaking into Toyota owners' garages late at night and changing out the good accelerators for ones made in Sardinia, by by deported Mafia Dons........ Mafia Dons HATE Toyotas and their owners..... so do certain ninjas!

Poor Toyota.........

 

[Vel]

These sensors can be effected by mositure or other conditions. That is why it took awhile to figure out what was going on. Toyota has not indicated why the accelerators built for Japanese cars don't have the problem the US made ones do. Slightly different design of the sensor, different placement or another part which comes into contact or channels moisture toward the part. One news program mentioned that cost savings was a factor in using the US built part.

only more reasons not to buy US built cars.

Lose your job yet? Keep buying foreign.

Hmm.. Toyota, Volkswagon, Nissan, Subaru and even Kia all building cars in the U.S. GM has cut U.S. jobs in order to move production to Mexico and South Korea. Tell us again how buying the foreign cars is going to cost jobs?

 

[Murf76]

I dunno. I always find value in following the path of the 'worst case scenario' as a mental exercise. You don't have to believe it, you just have to engage it long enough to see where the potholes are. Like Ragnar, I'm not suggesting wrong-doing, but when we use our imaginations, we see very clearly why the referee shouldn't be on the field as a player.

It doesn't matter to me anyway. I'd never buy a GM or Chrysler again, not ever. The Obama administration fucked over investors in order to pander to the unions... and they can never wash the stink off as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Murf76]

only more reasons not to buy US built cars.

Lose your job yet? Keep buying foreign.

Hmm.. Toyota, Volkswagon, Nissan, Subaru and even Kia all building cars in the U.S. GM has cut U.S. jobs in order to move production to Mexico and South Korea. Tell us again how buying the foreign cars is going to cost jobs?

Amen! Preach it, Brutha! Give me a foreign model, built in a RIGHT TO WORK STATE.