Is belief an intentional act?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I rejected it because I see no evidence of it.

You rejected the evidence because you see no evidence? I said you rejected the evidence presented a priori...this response doesn't make sense....

Yes, IQ tests have problems. Yet that doesn't mean the evidence is necessarily no good. dif
d

As to evidence, I would want to see a change in behavior. What about human interaction now is different from 5,000 years ago?

Of course, anyone could rattle of a laubdry list of differences in the human experience, but you will just attribute them to "better tools". So i will pass on the exercise, as the same difference of opinion will remain after.

 

[diver52]

And yes, we are smarter than when we thought the earth is flat.

That would not be "smarter", per se, but rather, "less ignorant".

Exactly. I do not dispute that we know more now than we did then. But that is not the same thing as being smarter.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And yes, we are smarter than when we thought the earth is flat.

That would not be "smarter", per se, but rather, "less ignorant".

Exactly. I do not dispute that we know more now than we did then. But that is not the same thing as being smarter.

Agreed. And you may very well be right that we are no smarter than we were 5,000 years ago. A few years ago, I might have agreed wholeheartedly. But some new information has arisen, and now I am not so sure.

 

[DOTR]

I was raised in a family which was Christian and I simply assumed, as a young child, that that is what I was. But when I finally reached an age where I was able to understand what that meant it was clear to me that I was not a Christian. Despite being talked to by many, many people and reading the Bible cover to cover, I have never believed.

However, the first time I read a book on Buddhism, I understand immediately that that was what I believed. Not necessarily all of the details, but the gist of it. I don't mean to say I read and said to myself, "This is cool, I think I'll believe this." I just realized this was the name of what I already believed without ever coming across it before. I never decided to believe, I just did.

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

What’s an example of something you read in that book on Buddhism that you instantly believed.

 

[badger2]

One thing that helps female belief is when she engenders the illusory avatar as male. (Electra complex, daddy's little girl). A father figure for males, too, belief is intentional.

 

[diver52]

I rejected it because I see no evidence of it.

You rejected the evidence because you see no evidence? I said you rejected the evidence presented a priori...this response doesn't make sense....

Yes, IQ tests have problems. Yet that doesn't mean the evidence is necessarily no good. dif
d

As to evidence, I would want to see a change in behavior. What about human interaction now is different from 5,000 years ago?

Of course, anyone could rattle of a laubdry list of differences in the human experience, but you will just attribute them to "better tools". So i will pass on the exercise, as the same difference of opinion will remain after.

I did not reject the evidence, I rejected the claim. There was no evidence presented to reject. Our technology is more advanced, but that is a matter of invention leading to invention. We didn't go from stone age to computers in a week. The claim being made is that we have become more intelligent and I see no evidence to support that claim. Intelligence is not determined by what technology you use, but what you do with the technology you have. Someone shooting me in the head with a glock is not more intelligent than someone bashing my head in with a club. Different tool, same behavior.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I did not reject the evidence, I rejected the claim.

You absolutely and immediately dismissed the IQ evidence. Come on, let's not go in circles. As evidenced by the fact that you didnt even exAmine the IQ evidence, yet are saying you see no evidence. You rejected that evidence a priori. That's a fact.

What change in behavior would be compelling evidence to you? That was a non answer by you, and a copout. I asked what evidence would compel you, and that was your non answer. So, let's pin you down further and ask: what behavioral change?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I was raised in a family which was Christian and I simply assumed, as a young child, that that is what I was. But when I finally reached an age where I was able to understand what that meant it was clear to me that I was not a Christian. Despite being talked to by many, many people and reading the Bible cover to cover, I have never believed.

However, the first time I read a book on Buddhism, I understand immediately that that was what I believed. Not necessarily all of the details, but the gist of it. I don't mean to say I read and said to myself, "This is cool, I think I'll believe this." I just realized this was the name of what I already believed without ever coming across it before. I never decided to believe, I just did.

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

I'm thinking you're misunderstanding the definition of "choice". You seem to think it requires the sentence "I think I'll believe this". In fact, that is exactly what you did, albeit without those words: you made a choice between "This seems real and true to me, and that does not."

 

[diver52]

I was raised in a family which was Christian and I simply assumed, as a young child, that that is what I was. But when I finally reached an age where I was able to understand what that meant it was clear to me that I was not a Christian. Despite being talked to by many, many people and reading the Bible cover to cover, I have never believed.

However, the first time I read a book on Buddhism, I understand immediately that that was what I believed. Not necessarily all of the details, but the gist of it. I don't mean to say I read and said to myself, "This is cool, I think I'll believe this." I just realized this was the name of what I already believed without ever coming across it before. I never decided to believe, I just did.

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

What’s an example of something you read in that book on Buddhism that you instantly believed.

The concept of anatman. That there is no such thing as a permanent self.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

Even as a tot, I remember believing in God, and believing in Him in a way my parents did not. Growing up, I learned God is good and loving, and I believed that while wondering about some of His antics in the Old Testament. However, being Catholic, we were mostly focused in the New Testament and there was a lot of other childhood activities going on, so I did not ponder this overly much.

It was after my own adult experience with God, that I began to question Old Testament stories of God. How could anyone with the least knowledge/experience of God attribute the flood, the plagues, the wiping out cities to Him? Since the accounts were of Jewish origin, I went to Jews for answers. To my amazement, they saw the same stories in an entirely different light--and in a light that made sense. So...my beliefs about the Old Testament changed (or grew and evolved if that makes better sense).

What I am asking is can you control that? Can you decide that for the next week you will stop believing what you believe and believe something else entirely? Is it actually a matter of choice?

Obviously you can, since YOU started out believing one thing, and then started believing something else entirely.

I was also raised in a Christian family and grew up believing strongly in the teachings of the Bible. As I got older, I encountered other beliefs, including Buddhism, and read and learned more about them. I, however, did not react to them by saying, "This is much more true and real to me" as you did. I continued to believe that Christianity was more correct. So clearly, since we had similar experiences but ended up in different places, there was an aspect of personal choice involved. You and I chose different beliefs.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Can you accidentally believe in something?

Sure. You can wander through life with vague, unexamined ideas about what's true and what isn't, and just never give it any thought at all. Lots of people do it.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Can you accidentally believe in something?

I would say certainly. Most people believe what they grew up with and that is a matter of accident - or at least random.

Many people do, but I don't know about most. I think it's sadly become less common for people to reach what used to be called "the age of accountability" and think about what they were taught as children, and make individual decisions about them, but I do think it still happens.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What I am asking is can you control that? Can you decide that for the next week you will stop believing what you believe and believe something else entirely? Is it actually a matter of choice?

Not and be honest with yourself. Belief comes from within. And to be real, so must change in belief.

I guess that would depend upon what you mean by "within". But whether it is a matter of genetics or life experiences, I don't think it is something which can be consciously controlled.

Again, saying that there are life experiences which influence your choices does not mean there are therefore no choices. The evidence is in the fact that people with similar life experiences - often people from the same families - end up in different places.

 

[DOTR]

I was raised in a family which was Christian and I simply assumed, as a young child, that that is what I was. But when I finally reached an age where I was able to understand what that meant it was clear to me that I was not a Christian. Despite being talked to by many, many people and reading the Bible cover to cover, I have never believed.

However, the first time I read a book on Buddhism, I understand immediately that that was what I believed. Not necessarily all of the details, but the gist of it. I don't mean to say I read and said to myself, "This is cool, I think I'll believe this." I just realized this was the name of what I already believed without ever coming across it before. I never decided to believe, I just did.

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

What’s an example of something you read in that book on Buddhism that you instantly believed.

The concept of anatman. That there is no such thing as a permanent self.

And to think... it took the Buddha 6 years of asceticism and 49 days under a tree with no food and water to believe that.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Can you accidentally believe in something?

I would say certainly. Most people believe what they grew up with and that is a matter of accident - or at least random.

You can believe what you've been taught. You can believe the wrong thing. But, the effort of believing is still a conscious act.

Is it? Try believing in unicorns for the rest of the day.

Straw man.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yes, I believe "belief" is intentional because it falls within our freewill.

What we believe is based on our moral principles and our experiences. Those beliefs can change based on a variety of reasons.

So I will toss the challenge to you. Believe in unicorns for a week. I don't mean pretend to believe, but actually believe. See how your freewill works out.

Still a straw man. "You can't choose to believe in THIS silly thing, therefore ALL beliefs are not choices."

Learn to form better arguments.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I don't believe in God but I believe in the premise of what God represents. Does that count?

Ok. Then for the next week believe in Odin. See if you can do it.

Hate to break it to you, but lots of people DO make that choice. Don't ask me why, because I have no idea, but there are still worshippers of the old Norse gods in the world.

And you're still presenting straw men.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I was raised in a family which was Christian and I simply assumed, as a young child, that that is what I was. But when I finally reached an age where I was able to understand what that meant it was clear to me that I was not a Christian. Despite being talked to by many, many people and reading the Bible cover to cover, I have never believed.

However, the first time I read a book on Buddhism, I understand immediately that that was what I believed. Not necessarily all of the details, but the gist of it. I don't mean to say I read and said to myself, "This is cool, I think I'll believe this." I just realized this was the name of what I already believed without ever coming across it before. I never decided to believe, I just did.

So the question to me is whether or not we actually have any control over belief. Has anyone actually sat down and decided that they were going to suddenly start believing that which they did not believe before?

What’s an example of something you read in that book on Buddhism that you instantly believed.

The concept of anatman. That there is no such thing as a permanent self.

And to think... it took the Buddha 6 years of asceticism and 49 days under a tree with no food and water to believe that.

Yeah, well, breaking the trail is always harder than following it after it's broken.

 

[Taz]

And yes, we are smarter than when we thought the earth is flat.

That would not be "smarter", per se, but rather, "less ignorant".

Same thing.

No, I don't think it is, nor is it what diver means.

It is, and I don't care, learn to use the right words.

 

[diver52]

I did not reject the evidence, I rejected the claim.

You absolutely and immediately dismissed the IQ evidence. Come on, let's not go in circles. As evidenced by the fact that you didnt even exAmine the IQ evidence, yet are saying you see no evidence. You rejected that evidence a priori. That's a fact.

What change in behavior would be compelling evidence to you? That was a non answer by you, and a copout. I asked what evidence would compel you, and that was your non answer. So, let's pin you down further and ask: what behavioral change?

Ok. I'll give you that. I still reject it because you can't go back 5,000 years and give the population of the earth the same test, nor has that test been given to most of the current population. But I will grant you that it is evidence and I did reject it.

I'll give you an example of behavior. We are currently poisoning ourselves. There is as large a consensus among the scientific community on that as you could expect when it comes to humans. We know we are poisoning ourselves, we know how we are poisoning ourselves and we know pretty much what we have to do to stop it. We continue to poison ourselves. My prediction is that once this problem finally reaches the point of being catastrophic we will at last get together, form committees, and try to figure out who is to blame. What we won't do is stop poisoning ourselves.

My friend, human beings are clever. We can make all kinds of clever things. But smart is not a word I would apply to us.