Is anyone happy with the cap and trade bill?

[elvis]

It's bullshit. Just more government control over flawed science ... even environmental scientific communities are saying it's a bad idea ... just sayin'.

Better to call it by it's true name...Crap and Charade.

hey I like that. Chris, Crap, and Charade.

 

[Chris]

You do realize that most of the scientists you have your lips firmly attached to don't support it ....

... as well as enough Democrats in the House to almost stop this idiotic bill ...

... of course you know this already, right?

Who cares?

We need to move toward clean energy.

Now the monied interests are howling like stuck pigs.

No surprise there.

Really poor analogy ... considering the "stuck pigs" you are talking about are us, the people who benefit from the cheaper and less regulated energy ...

Seriously ... do you really think anything more heavily regulated would result in lower prices?

We don't need lower prices, we need to switch to cleaner energy made in America.

Why are we giving the Arabs $100 billion dollars a year, when we can produce energy here in America?

 

[Oddball]

Why are we giving the Arabs $100 billion dollars a year, when we can produce energy here in America?

Because incomprehensibly ignorant environmentalist whacko bedwetters shit their pants whenever American energy companies want to develop American resources....That's why.

 

[KittenKoder]

Why are we giving the Arabs $100 billion dollars a year, when we can produce energy here in America?

Because incomprehensibly ignorant environmentalist whacko bedwetters shit their pants whenever American energy companies want to develop American resources....That's why.

Yep, and every time they begin one "green" form, the environuts decide to promote another company so they say the last form wasn't really "green" just so they can con us out of more taxes for the next "green" company .... it's a sick con and nothing more.

 

[KittenKoder]

44 Dems and 8 Reps against it ... hmm ...

 

[Navy1960]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr3HuRZFbfk&NR=1]YouTube - Waxman Threatens to Kick Issa Out of Hearing Room[/ame]

The reason I posted this is to show the nature of the people that set this cap and trade bill up. The facts are this bill is NOT an energy bill and anyone that thinks it is is in for a very big surprise when it passes. It uses energy as the vehicle to set up a massive tax scheme to support a carbon trading system that will enrich many people vested in enviro-business at the expense of the American people. If you want this nation to be energy independant, and want it done in an environmentally sound way, I URGE you to call your Senator and tell them to vote NO on this bill and get off their collective asses and pass a bill that promotes ALL of our domestic resources.... Wind,Solar,Nuclear,Natural Gas, Oil, etc.. Here is some food for thought, had the Obama Adminstration just taken the Stimulus and this disaster of a bill and increased the solar credit for homeowners to 100% , imagine every American home with solar and the amount of energy saved there, and the number of jobs that would have created. However, because something as simple as that would not have enriched and kept empolyed all those hoping to make billions of this scheme , like G.E., Al Gore, and many others it would have been shot down along with nuclear, domestic oil production, oil shale, and many others thus increasing our dependance on terrorist states for energy all in the name of a unproven science.

 

[Care4all]

the government subsidized the oil and the electricity industries for decades, if not a century...

 

[tigerbob]

Moving toward clean energy is a good idea.

Pretty simple really.

I love all the Republican whinning, however. They loved it when the oil men were in the White House and gas was $4.50 a gallon.

Do you mean winning or whining? I'm assuming whining, since whenever the GoP has a position you disagree with you almost always seem to say they are whining.

You may be right, but I'm not sure why you think that anyone to doesn't like the legislation must be a Republican. Is it not possible for someone to support Obama on some issues but not on this one? Or does disagreeing with Obama on anything make someone a Republican? Can you clarify?

It would be nice to know once and for all whether I can write you off as someone who is deliberately blinkered or someone who actually has an opinion they developed themselves.

Moving towards clean energy is a good idea, I agree. But there are many ways of doing it that would be less costly than what is being proposed here. Is "moving towards clean energy" your only validation for supporting this particular proposal?

 

[Navy1960]

the government subsidized the oil and the electricity industries for decades, if not a century...

Care, this bill is an enrichment bill and frankly I'm actually surprised that democrats as well as republicans are not outraged over it's passage in the house. This bill does nothing in the way of putting people back to work or helps them with their healthcare, it bascially enriches enviro-business at the expense of us all and in a time that for the most part this nation is hurting financially. It's one of the reasons I put up the solar credit suggestion as a way to show that had they really been serious about it then they would have not sought to set up a carbon ponzi scheme that they know won't work and hasn't worked in Europe. The only thing it has done Care is cause more people to lose their jobs, and enrich those that are in the carbon trading business. You know Care for me it doesn't take a whole lot to understand when a company set's up a carbon trading division then starts to lobby congress for the passge of a bill to trade carbon credits to know that they have an agenda that may not include the best interests of the citizens of this nation.

 

[tigerbob]

Moving toward clean energy is a good idea.

Pretty simple really.

I love all the Republican whinning, however. They loved it when the oil men were in the White House and gas was $4.50 a gallon.

You do realize that most of the scientists you have your lips firmly attached to don't support it ....

... as well as enough Democrats in the House to almost stop this idiotic bill ...

... of course you know this already, right?

Who cares?

We need to move toward clean energy.

Now the monied interests are howling like stuck pigs.

No surprise there.

Come off it Chris. Do you seriously believe that there are no "monied interests" on the "clean energy" side of the debate? That all "clean energy" proponents are doing this out of a sense of altruism? Show me an altruist in public and I'll show you a capitalist in private. There are monied interests on both sides - it's just different monied interests that are currently doing the howling. And well you know it. Stop being disingenuous.

 

[Citizen]

If so please explain why, because I, for one, am not.

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. "

If you believe that, then you should believe that future generations have, at the very least, the same inalienable right to "life" as the present generation does.
So yes, I do.
As a policy instrument, ACES ably addresses a wide range of concerns with the appropriate government departments while withdrawing us from the tipping point that would make life on earth uninhabitable for future generations. These actions should have been achieved in (and because of the lessons of) the seventies. If they were, the US wouldn't be sucking hind tit to other countries regarding new technologies in renewable energy. We can still be a leader in innovation, and if this passes, we will reap the rewards and bestow the "Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." More often than not the right thing to do is profitable. It might take a minute longer than to rape and pillage, but the rewards are longer lasting.

IMHO, there is no real evidence that our actions are in any way tipping the ballance to make life on earth uninhabitable.

If you would just thke the time to research the temperature changes our planet has gone through over the past, you might see that warming and cooling are a natural effect, and have been going on long before we came along.

Please see the post this post.

Today, 06:20 AM
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A little History lesson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Global Warming:A Chilling Perspective

 

[Navy1960]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7VUg7nG3lw&feature=related]YouTube - Newt Rips Gore's 'Facts' To Pieces[/ame]

I would also urge you to watch this.

 

[garyd]

And there you have it the only people who like this bill are those to damn dumb to understand basci math. Chris this bill isn't moving us any where but incrementally closer to poverty. people with no money aren't buying anything new. The only CO2 reduction this bill will provide is will be due to an economy that is in a virtual state of recession.

How the hell are people supposed to make the move to green energy when the freaking government is taking all their freaking money to fight a damn problem that doesn't provably exist based on a theory that ignores the obvious.

 

[Navy1960]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJMgBVe6qh0]YouTube - Australia Delays Carbon Reduction Scheme[/ame]

Australia has delayed their cap and trade scheme why? well take a listen, they are delaying it because of the global economic downturn, but yet WE are trying to implement it at the expense of our own people.

 

[Care4all]

Well, in my parent's region of florida, the electric company wanted to add a nuclear power plant and convinced the government that it was okay to DOUBLE THE PRICE of electricity on to the people getting electric from them to PAY for the construction of the new nuclear power plant, and boy oh boy is my parent's community PISSED as you can be about it!

My father said the electric company and the government getting their pockets lined with gold in contributions from the Electric company, can "Kiss His Grits" if they think he is going to pay the bill for the new nuclear power plant only for the Electric company to make profits off of it down the road....if they want him to pay double in electric costs now to build this thing, then they better give him shares of the Electric company's stock, so that he can benefit when the profits come in down the road, off of this nuclear plant!

 

[Navy1960]

Well, in my parent's region of florida, the electric company wanted to add a nuclear power plant and convinced the government that it was okay to DOUBLE THE PRICE of electricity on to the people getting electric from them to PAY for the construction of the new nuclear power plant, and boy oh boy is my parent's community PISSED as you can be about it!

My father said the electric company and the government getting their pockets lined with gold in contributions from the Electric company, can "Kiss His Grits" if they think he is going to pay the bill for the new nuclear power plant only for the Electric company to make profits off of it down the road....if they want him to pay double in electric costs now to build this thing, then they better give him shares of the Electric company's stock, so that he can benefit when the profits come in down the road, off of this nuclear plant!

Care, you think they are mad now? just wait till they start adding carbon taxes to the existing structure . Your parents utility bill will go up anyway as it's my understanding that Florida already has a few nuclear plants as well as many other types that would be subject to severe cap taxes under this bill. Then you have the issue of permitting with other technologies like Wind, and Solar because every envirnomental group will run to court in Fl. to delay the construction of those types of projects for various reason(s). While I understand your parents frustration, in the long run the nuclear plant would most likely serve the needs of that community and others in the long term. I don't see why he could not buy into it as long as it's a publically held company, I don't know if FPL is you may want to check into it though Care.

 

[Care4all]

Well, in my parent's region of florida, the electric company wanted to add a nuclear power plant and convinced the government that it was okay to DOUBLE THE PRICE of electricity on to the people getting electric from them to PAY for the construction of the new nuclear power plant, and boy oh boy is my parent's community PISSED as you can be about it!

My father said the electric company and the government getting their pockets lined with gold in contributions from the Electric company, can "Kiss His Grits" if they think he is going to pay the bill for the new nuclear power plant only for the Electric company to make profits off of it down the road....if they want him to pay double in electric costs now to build this thing, then they better give him shares of the Electric company's stock, so that he can benefit when the profits come in down the road, off of this nuclear plant!

Care, you think they are mad now? just wait till they start adding carbon taxes to the existing structure . Your parents utility bill will go up anyway as it's my understanding that Florida already has a few nuclear plants as well as many other types that would be subject to severe cap taxes under this bill. Then you have the issue of permitting with other technologies like Wind, and Solar because every envirnomental group will run to court in Fl. to delay the construction of those types of projects for various reason(s). While I understand your parents frustration, in the long run the nuclear plant would most likely serve the needs of that community and others in the long term. I don't see why he could not buy into it as long as it's a publically held company, I don't know if FPL is you may want to check into it though Care.

Nuke Plants are CLEAN and do not admit carbon's and yes, florida has several, my parent's electric comes from a Nuclear Power plant that already exists there, this is for an additional plant.

And yes, I am certain my father will be throwing a fit, if prices go up, no matter who is doing it, the government or the private sector....in his case, it is the private sector that he feels is ripping him off.

Care

 

[Navy1960]

Well, in my parent's region of florida, the electric company wanted to add a nuclear power plant and convinced the government that it was okay to DOUBLE THE PRICE of electricity on to the people getting electric from them to PAY for the construction of the new nuclear power plant, and boy oh boy is my parent's community PISSED as you can be about it!

My father said the electric company and the government getting their pockets lined with gold in contributions from the Electric company, can "Kiss His Grits" if they think he is going to pay the bill for the new nuclear power plant only for the Electric company to make profits off of it down the road....if they want him to pay double in electric costs now to build this thing, then they better give him shares of the Electric company's stock, so that he can benefit when the profits come in down the road, off of this nuclear plant!

Care, you think they are mad now? just wait till they start adding carbon taxes to the existing structure . Your parents utility bill will go up anyway as it's my understanding that Florida already has a few nuclear plants as well as many other types that would be subject to severe cap taxes under this bill. Then you have the issue of permitting with other technologies like Wind, and Solar because every envirnomental group will run to court in Fl. to delay the construction of those types of projects for various reason(s). While I understand your parents frustration, in the long run the nuclear plant would most likely serve the needs of that community and others in the long term. I don't see why he could not buy into it as long as it's a publically held company, I don't know if FPL is you may want to check into it though Care.

Nuke Plants are CLEAN and do not admit carbon's and yes, florida has several, my parent's electric comes from a Nuclear Power plant that already exists there, this is for an additional plant.

And yes, I am certain my father will be throwing a fit, if prices go up, no matter who is doing it, the government or the private sector....in his case, it is the private sector that he feels is ripping him off.

Care

I wonder then how he is going to feel when his utility bill goes up as a result of all this? Still upset with the private sector? I'm sure they hold hearings the utility company does for the general public prior to the construction of any new plant. So I would imagine your father coudl attend one and express his concerns to them. The more I think about this , the more I'm of the opinion that if the Govt. had wanted to reduce our dependance on foreign energy they would simply extend the solar tax credit to 100% for a short period of time . What that would do is allow anyone who wants to, to put solar panels on their homes , reducing electric use, and cutting down the need for that plant in some area's as well as cutting down on energy usage. However, as I said before. this bill has little of anything to do with energy issues related to the citizens of this nation and more to do with enriching people involved with it's passage.

 

[Missourian]

We haul a lot of windmill housings, blades and turbines for G.E.

My trucks reload them down in Laredo, Texas from Mexican trucks bringing them across the border.

General Electric's biggest wind turbine production plants are located in Mexico.

 

[Navy1960]

We haul a lot of windmill housings, blades and turbines for G.E.

My trucks reload them down in Laredo, Texas from Mexican trucks bringing them across the border.

General Electric's biggest wind turbine production plants are located in Mexico.

Made an earlier comment about those so called "green jobs" in this bill too Missourian, and thats exactly what I was talking about. Companies like G.E. are vested in the passage of this bill because it not only enriches them, those so called "green jobs" are going to be created alright, just in places where the environmental regulations don't apply! Went to vist my Brother in San Antonio recently and every so often on the highways there in Tx. you see those trucks hauling those turbine blades up from Mexico.