IRS makes deal with Atheists to Persecute Churches

[DriftingSand]

Wow. What a convincing post. I'll have to reconsider my stance.

 

[g5000]

Neither of you have your stories correct, and one of you listens to David Barton, who is wrong.

You are the one who is wrong
The Vast Majority was Christians.

3 were deists out of the 204.
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Cornelius Harnett

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

And even Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian per the notation found written by him in his personal Bible:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

Thomas Jefferson

That is a fake quote.

It's a bastardization of something Jefferson wrote in a letter to Charles Thompson about his Bible, not in his bible.

It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the Gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.

Notice how he is slamming other Christians who believe Jesus was divine and not a man.

 

[g5000]

Wow. What a convincing post. I'll have to reconsider my stance.

Considering the fact you are throwing around fake quotes by historical figures, you should reconsider your stance.

Jefferson was a Deist.

 

[peach174]

The Founding Fathers were Deists who didn't really buy the nonsense in the Bible.

Churches get tax exemptions the rest of us don't enjoy.

And they shouldn't be involved in politics if they get that exemption.

100% B.S. The vast majority of the Founders were Christians. The earliest Congress sponsored the printing of the Holy Bible.

Get your facts straight and stop lying.

Neither of you have your stories correct, and one of you listens to David Barton, who is wrong.

We were taught this is school in the 50's and 60's and the exhibit was there way before Barton was even born.
From the actual government website.
Other Bibles - Library of Congress Bible Collection | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

On January 21, 1781, Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734–1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament that he was preparing at his own expense. Congress passed a resolution endorsing Aitken’s Bible

 

[DriftingSand]

The article doesn't say a thing about Christians. But churches. It would apply as fully to Muslims as Christians or Scientologists.

It shouldn't apply to anyone, including Muslims or Scientology. But experience hath warned us that it will only be applied against Christians. In fact Lakhota just affirmed this in the above post.

When a religion uses donations for political purposes, its violating the conditions of its tax exempt status.

Then here's an idea. A group of Christians meet on Sunday for church. Then, the same group meets off of the church grounds to discuss political activism. No law against that and the tax exempt status remains untouched.

 

[shart_attack]

Neither of you have your stories correct, and one of you listens to David Barton, who is wrong.

You are the one who is wrong
The Vast Majority was Christians.

3 were deists out of the 204.
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Cornelius Harnett

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

And even Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian per the notation found written by him in his personal Bible:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

Thomas Jefferson

Then why did he personally omit Christ's name in every incidence in which it appeared in the New Testament of his Bible?

I'm with you on most of this, man, but Jefferson was in truth a spiteful man who openly mocked Christians.

 

[g5000]

I will part with the wisdom evoked by the late great Alexis de Tocqueville in 1833 as he looked back at the poisoned environment created by the theocratic powers of Europe. When you read the words, I think you will find they are eerily applicable to America today.

Such is not the natural state of men with regard to religion at the present day, and some extraordinary or incidental cause must be at work in France to prevent the human mind from following its natural inclination and to drive it beyond the limits at which it ought naturally to stop.

I am fully convinced that this extraordinary and incidental cause is the close connection of politics and religion. The unbelievers of Europe attack the Christians as their political opponents rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Deity than because they are the allies of government.

In Europe, Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins. The living body of religion has been bound down to the dead corpse of superannuated polity; cut but the bonds that restrain it, and it will rise once more. I do not know what could restore the Christian church of Europe to the energy of its earlier days; that power belongs to God alone; but it may be for human policy to leave to faith the full exercise of the strength which it still retains.

It is just as important for the survival of religion to keep itself separate from the government as vice versa.

Inviting the government into your religion is inviting the devil into your home. Tying your church to a party is tying the survival of your church to the political successes and failures of that party. A huge mistake.

 

[DriftingSand]

Wow. What a convincing post. I'll have to reconsider my stance.

Considering the fact you are throwing around fake quotes by historical figures, you should reconsider your stance.

Jefferson was a Deist.

Not according to Jefferson. No need to lie about it. Jefferson was opposed to a "state church" like the Church of England.

 

[DriftingSand]

You are the one who is wrong
The Vast Majority was Christians.

3 were deists out of the 204.
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
Cornelius Harnett

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

And even Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian per the notation found written by him in his personal Bible:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

Thomas Jefferson

Then why did he personally omit Christ's name in every incidence in which it appeared in the New Testament of his Bible?

I'm with you on most of this, man, but Jefferson was in truth a spiteful man who openly mocked Christians.

Dig deeper. Jefferson erected a church service right in the halls of Congress and he sent missionaries to evangelize the Indians. He was outspokenly opposed to a state church (specifically the Church of England under King George). Watch the two videos I posted.

 

[g5000]

Wow. What a convincing post. I'll have to reconsider my stance.

Considering the fact you are throwing around fake quotes by historical figures, you should reconsider your stance.

Jefferson was a Deist.

Not according to Jefferson. No need to lie about it. Jefferson was opposed to a "state church" like the Church of England.

Yes, Jefferson was a Deist.

You swallowed a fake quote.

Here is the letter from Jefferson to Thomson: Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Charles Thomson, 1816

I am reminded of this duty by the receipt, through our friend Dr. Patterson, of your synopsis of the four Evangelists. I had procured it as soon as I saw it advertised, and had become familiar with its use; but this copy is the more valued as it comes from your hand.

I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side. And I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gosindi's Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy o the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagances of his rival sects.

 

[DriftingSand]

Then why did he personally omit Christ's name in every incidence in which it appeared in the New Testament of his Bible?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1JUIB6OlM]David Barton On The Jefferson Bible - YouTube[/ame]

 

[g5000]

Dig deeper. Jefferson erected a church service right in the halls of Congress and he sent missionaries to evangelize the Indians.

More falsehoods.

The Catholic Church evangelized the Indians. Nor did Jefferson erect a church service in the Capitol.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warren...-did-jefferson-approve-church-in-the-capitol/

 

[shart_attack]

And even Jefferson considered himself to be a Christian per the notation found written by him in his personal Bible:

Thomas Jefferson

Then why did he personally omit Christ's name in every incidence in which it appeared in the New Testament of his Bible?

I'm with you on most of this, man, but Jefferson was in truth a spiteful man who openly mocked Christians.

Dig deeper. Jefferson erected a church service right in the halls of Congress and he sent missionaries to evangelize the Indians. He was outspokenly opposed to a state church (specifically the Church of England under King George). Watch the two videos I posted.

Lots of "churches" claim to be Christian — for political expediency, or whatever else.

Jefferson was a 32° Mason who was a Christian in name only.

He was not the least bit fond of Christianity's founder. That means he wasn't a Christian.

 

[g5000]

You will not find Jesus interacting with the government in the Bible, except for when he recruited a government employee to come with him on his journey () and at the end when the government killed him.

When asked about taxes, Jesus made it pretty plain that the secular and the divine were to be kept separate.

As Alexis de Toqueville made plain, when you mix your religion and your politics together, then your opponents see your belief system as a political one, and your religion is chained to the policies of your party, and will therefore be dragged wherever your party is dragged. That is an extremely stupid mistake to make.

 

[DriftingSand]

You will not find Jesus interacting with the government in the Bible, except for when he recruited a government employee to come with him on his journey () and at the end when the government killed him.

When asked about taxes, Jesus made it pretty plain that the secular and the divine were to be kept separate.

As Alexis de Toqueville made plain, when you mix your religion and your politics together, then your opponents see your belief system as a political one, and your religion is chained to the policies of your party, and will therefore be dragged wherever your party is dragged. That is an extremely stupid mistake to make.

Christ never claimed that "the secular and divine were to be kept separate." He sent His Apostles into a secular world to spread the Gospel and He simply said that we were to give to Caesar what belonged to him and to God what belonged to Him. God used (and uses) government to fulfill His purposes (whether in the form of blessings or cursings).

 

[DriftingSand]

Then why did he personally omit Christ's name in every incidence in which it appeared in the New Testament of his Bible?

I'm with you on most of this, man, but Jefferson was in truth a spiteful man who openly mocked Christians.

Dig deeper. Jefferson erected a church service right in the halls of Congress and he sent missionaries to evangelize the Indians. He was outspokenly opposed to a state church (specifically the Church of England under King George). Watch the two videos I posted.

Lots of "churches" claim to be Christian — for political expediency, or whatever else.

Jefferson was a 32° Mason who was a Christian in name only.

He was not the least bit fond of Christianity's founder. That means he wasn't a Christian.

I'm more than certain that he'll be happy that Christ (rather than you or me) will be the ultimate judge of his heart and soul. Thank God Almighty that Jefferson helped found our free nation.

 

[Againsheila]

Are Muslims out there trying to influence elections? Then, yes, i am all for yanking their tax exempt status, too.

This is something you guys don't get. Churches should NOT be doing political activity. Social Welfare Agencies shouldn't. If you a claim an exemption and do politics, you are breaking the law.

Once again the far left just goes to show that programmed talking points and propaganda rule the day over facts and logic.

Ok so the unions are breaking the law then, they all need to be arrested and dismantled.

No, the unions are governed by a specific chapter and verse concerning their political activity. It includes complete disclosure of the source of their money and a method for union members to opt out if they don't like the political activity.

There is absolutely NOTHING requiring parishioners to pay money to the church to be used for politics. There isn't anything that makes them pay any money to the church. They don't need an "opt out" they already have that.

 

[shart_attack]

Dig deeper. Jefferson erected a church service right in the halls of Congress and he sent missionaries to evangelize the Indians. He was outspokenly opposed to a state church (specifically the Church of England under King George). Watch the two videos I posted.

Lots of "churches" claim to be Christian — for political expediency, or whatever else.

Jefferson was a 32° Mason who was a Christian in name only.

He was not the least bit fond of Christianity's founder. That means he wasn't a Christian.

I'm more than certain that he'll be happy that Christ (rather than you or me) will be the ultimate judge of his heart and soul. Thank God Almighty that Jefferson helped found our free nation.

Time to leave well enough alone here and just say that I, too, am happy that he helped found our nation.

 

[Vandalshandle]

While the IRS persecuting churches seems a little over the top, I would be thrilled if they lost their tax exempt status. Churches own businesses, ranches, farms, service providers, art, and above all, real estate, that is used not for religious purposes, to generate income. A great deal of it is purely scamming the government.

 

[kiwiman127]

That won't last long when the discover it is mostly black churches are doing it. But having said that, political activity from the pulpit is an American tradition form the revolutionary war to date, I think if the law were challenged it would be over turned.

I'm sure political action does take place in black churches, but "mostly"? The Evangelical and other conservative religions also have become political huge tools within their churches. Michelle Bachmann comes to mind as a frequent user of her church and other Evangelical churches for political purposes..
My mother, who is a devoted Christian quit her Baptist church because it was becoming way too proactive in telling people who to vote for and encourage their members to send money to far right candidates. My mother is a Republican but is a Christian first and had strong feeling about how God would feel about His House was being used for politics instead of worship.