IRS: How Many Investigations??

[NYcarbineer]

So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?

Pending some weird "republicans out to get tea partiers" or "no no this is the usual investigation" type information.

Them Bush's, especially the first one, ran a pretty tight ship I must admit even if I disagre with them often. CIA experience or something.

"So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?"


You're not actually admitting to ignorance by claiming that President Reagan....or anyone in his administration was found guilty of any crime associated with Iran-Contra.....

...are you?

lol, I'm bookmarking this post the next time you claim you never got anything wrong.

 

[g5000]

Unlike a court room, thinking individuals can see both that Obama is guilty of the plan to tie up conservative groups prior to the election, .....

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, the partisan hack rube makes an unsubstantiated claim!

Simply amazing.

 

[g5000]

So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?

Pending some weird "republicans out to get tea partiers" or "no no this is the usual investigation" type information.

Them Bush's, especially the first one, ran a pretty tight ship I must admit even if I disagre with them often. CIA experience or something.

"So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?"


You're not actually admitting to ignorance by claiming that President Reagan....or anyone in his administration was found guilty of any crime associated with Iran-Contra.....

...are you?

lol, I'm bookmarking this post the next time you claim you never got anything wrong.

That's a good one.

 

[g5000]

"So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?"


You're not actually admitting to ignorance by claiming that President Reagan....or anyone in his administration was found guilty of any crime associated with Iran-Contra.....

...are you?

EXACTLY.

That whole public opinion court reference got me thinking about Iran Contra.

Since I am not an Obama worshiper or even party member I can say this sure looks equally shady.

EXACTLY what?

"....admitting to ignorance..."?


The public supported Reagan during the event you reference.

Nor was anyone found guilty.





"That whole public opinion court reference got me thinking about Iran Contra."

Think again.

There were several convictions, dimwit.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Summary of Prosecutions

After Independent Counsel Lawrence E. Walsh's appointment in December 1986, 14 persons were charged with criminal offenses. Eleven persons were convicted, but two convictions were overturned on appeal. Two persons were pardoned before trial and one case was dismissed when the Bush Administration declined to declassify information necessary for trial. On December 24, 1992, President Bush pardoned Caspar W. Weinberger, Duane R. Clarridge, Clair E. George, Elliott Abrams, Alan D. Fiers, Jr., and Robert C. McFarlane.

Wrong.


1. The Iran-Contra scandal involved the sale of arms to Iran, basically to ransom American hostages that Islamic extremists held, and diverting proceeds from the sale to the Contras in Nicaragua. Neither the sale nor the diversions of funds were clear violations of existing laws: subsequent independent counsel investigations never directly charged anyone with crimes for either the arms sales nor the diversions.


2. "... reversal of NSC staff member Oliver North and National Security Adviser John Poindexter’s convictions. The Court of Appeals reversed their convictions because they successfully argued that witnesses in their trials might have been affected by publicized immunized congressional testimony, even though the prosecutors themselves had taken painstaking efforts to avoid encountering information about the hearings."
Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath (convictions: Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath


3.The pardons you link to were not Iran-Contra:
"The parallel investigation by Independent Counsel Lawrence Walsh secured criminal convictions of nearly a dozen senior administration officials and private citizens for acts such as perjury, conspiracy, fraud, and the destruction of evidence."

Read more: Iran-contra affair: Definition from Answers.com

Apparently you do not read your own links. The first one has an excellent Summary of Prosecutions.

From your second link.

Iran-Contra affair (1985-92), a rare non-venal political scandal in which high officials of the Reagan administration were discovered to have used funds raised by covert arms sales through Israel to Iran in order to finance the activities of the ‘Contra’ revolutionaries against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, every step of which violated declared government policy, domestic law, or international law

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

 

[PoliticalChic]

So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?

Pending some weird "republicans out to get tea partiers" or "no no this is the usual investigation" type information.

Them Bush's, especially the first one, ran a pretty tight ship I must admit even if I disagre with them often. CIA experience or something.

"So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?"


You're not actually admitting to ignorance by claiming that President Reagan....or anyone in his administration was found guilty of any crime associated with Iran-Contra.....

...are you?

lol, I'm bookmarking this post the next time you claim you never got anything wrong.

Wrong, boy....

See post #65

 

[PoliticalChic]

EXACTLY.

That whole public opinion court reference got me thinking about Iran Contra.

Since I am not an Obama worshiper or even party member I can say this sure looks equally shady.

EXACTLY what?

"....admitting to ignorance..."?


The public supported Reagan during the event you reference.

Nor was anyone found guilty.





"That whole public opinion court reference got me thinking about Iran Contra."

Think again.

There were several convictions, dimwit.

Didn't I smack you around enough today???

You need more?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Unlike a court room, thinking individuals can see both that Obama is guilty of the plan to tie up conservative groups prior to the election, .....

Once again, ladies and gentlemen, the partisan hack rube makes an unsubstantiated claim!

Simply amazing.

"Growing evidence suggests that since Barack Obama took office in 2009, the massive powers of the IRS have been knowingly used to limit the organized opposition to liberal government.
Such an abuse of power cannot be allowed America."
Obama IRS Scandal ? ?Secret Vendetta Against Conservatives? - The Ulsterman Report

Only an idiot would deny the fact.

Oh...right...you are an idiot.
Carry on.

 

[Toronado3800]

Wrong.


1. The Iran-Contra scandal involved the sale of arms to Iran, basically to ransom American hostages that Islamic extremists held, and diverting proceeds from the sale to the Contras in Nicaragua. Neither the sale nor the diversions of funds were clear violations of existing laws: subsequent independent counsel investigations never directly charged anyone with crimes for either the arms sales nor the diversions.


2. "... reversal of NSC staff member Oliver North and National Security Adviser John Poindexter’s convictions. The Court of Appeals reversed their convictions because they successfully argued that witnesses in their trials might have been affected by publicized immunized congressional testimony, even though the prosecutors themselves had taken painstaking efforts to avoid encountering information about the hearings."
Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath (convictions: Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath


3.The pardons you link to were not Iran-Contra:
"The parallel investigation by Independent Counsel Lawrence Walsh secured criminal convictions of nearly a dozen senior administration officials and private citizens for acts such as perjury, conspiracy, fraud, and the destruction of evidence."

Read more: Iran-contra affair: Definition from Answers.com

Apparently you do not read your own links. The first one has an excellent Summary of Prosecutions.

From your second link.

Iran-Contra affair (1985-92), a rare non-venal political scandal in which high officials of the Reagan administration were discovered to have used funds raised by covert arms sales through Israel to Iran in order to finance the activities of the ‘Contra’ revolutionaries against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, every step of which violated declared government policy, domestic law, or international law

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

Now I am just confused.

So put simply, were they convicted then Pardoned by Bush1?

 

[BlindBoo]

Wrong.


1. The Iran-Contra scandal involved the sale of arms to Iran, basically to ransom American hostages that Islamic extremists held, and diverting proceeds from the sale to the Contras in Nicaragua. Neither the sale nor the diversions of funds were clear violations of existing laws: subsequent independent counsel investigations never directly charged anyone with crimes for either the arms sales nor the diversions.


2. "... reversal of NSC staff member Oliver North and National Security Adviser John Poindexter’s convictions. The Court of Appeals reversed their convictions because they successfully argued that witnesses in their trials might have been affected by publicized immunized congressional testimony, even though the prosecutors themselves had taken painstaking efforts to avoid encountering information about the hearings."
Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath (convictions: Understanding the Iran-Contra Affairs - The Legal Aftermath


3.The pardons you link to were not Iran-Contra:
"The parallel investigation by Independent Counsel Lawrence Walsh secured criminal convictions of nearly a dozen senior administration officials and private citizens for acts such as perjury, conspiracy, fraud, and the destruction of evidence."

Read more: Iran-contra affair: Definition from Answers.com

Apparently you do not read your own links. The first one has an excellent Summary of Prosecutions.

From your second link.

Iran-Contra affair (1985-92), a rare non-venal political scandal in which high officials of the Reagan administration were discovered to have used funds raised by covert arms sales through Israel to Iran in order to finance the activities of the ‘Contra’ revolutionaries against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, every step of which violated declared government policy, domestic law, or international law

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK3Nx8_A40]When you dance to 'The Sidestep' inside the Texas State Capital building in Austin - YouTube[/ame]

 

[PoliticalChic]

Apparently you do not read your own links. The first one has an excellent Summary of Prosecutions.

From your second link.

Iran-Contra affair (1985-92), a rare non-venal political scandal in which high officials of the Reagan administration were discovered to have used funds raised by covert arms sales through Israel to Iran in order to finance the activities of the ‘Contra’ revolutionaries against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, every step of which violated declared government policy, domestic law, or international law

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

Now I am just confused.

So put simply, were they convicted then Pardoned by Bush1?

The two convictions for Iran-Contra, i.e., breaking the 'law' of the Boland amendment, were overturned.


Boilerplate criminal convictions....not specific to the Boland amendment, were pardoned by Bush.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Apparently you do not read your own links. The first one has an excellent Summary of Prosecutions.

From your second link.

Iran-Contra affair (1985-92), a rare non-venal political scandal in which high officials of the Reagan administration were discovered to have used funds raised by covert arms sales through Israel to Iran in order to finance the activities of the ‘Contra’ revolutionaries against the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, every step of which violated declared government policy, domestic law, or international law

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK3Nx8_A40]When you dance to 'The Sidestep' inside the Texas State Capital building in Austin - YouTube[/ame]

The charges are specific.

Some were charged with breaking the law passed by Congress, i.e., " The amendment outlawed U.S. assistance to the Contras for the purpose of overthrowing the Nicaraguan government, while allowing assistance for other purposes."
Boland Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There were only two found guilty of the above. The convictions were overturned.
Thus....there were no individuals found guilty in Iran-Contra.


Do you disagree?

 

[Toronado3800]

Lol. You seem correct.

Pardoned and having convictions overturned because of previous statements being deemed inadmissable.

But not convicted. What a bunch if crooks and if Weinberger or North are to be believed Reagan was one of them..

Back to the Obama comparison.

I still bet something similar comes of this IRS thing. Maybe Obama knew. I bet Obama knew in an off hand way but it seems almost certain folks under him acted improperly and SOMEONE will be the fall guy Biden will have to pardon I suppose.

BTW, which scandal do you think is worse? Iran Contra has some terrible terrorism overtones and seems worse with hindsight than it did in the 80's. IRSgate would have Ben Franklin rolling.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Lol. You seem correct.

Pardoned and having convictions overturned because of previous statements being deemed inadmissable.

But not convicted. What a bunch if crooks and if Weinberger or North are to be believed Reagan was one of them..

Back to the Obama comparison.

I still bet something similar comes of this IRS thing. Maybe Obama knew. I bet Obama knew in an off hand way but it seems almost certain folks under him acted improperly and SOMEONE will be the fall guy Biden will have to pardon I suppose.

BTW, which scandal do you think is worse? Iran Contra has some terrible terrorism overtones and seems worse with hindsight than it did in the 80's. IRSgate would have Ben Franklin rolling.

1. This is the very important point, not to be missed: only if 'crooks' is narrowly defined as breaking a corrupt law.

a. Two points should be made clear. The Democrat Congress was strongly in favor of the communists of Nicaragua, and the scandal was an attempt to tie the hands of the President, who was strongly anti-communist. And, two, congressional attempts to conduct foreign policy were, at the very least, constitutionally dubious. Reagan often complained that it was not possible to carry out foreign policy with 535 secretaries of state in Congress.

b. See Locke’s “Second Treatise of Government,” the primary inspiration for the Declaration of Independence, for the nature of the prerogative in the executive branch. He defined it as “nothing but the power of doing public good without a rule.” John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government: Chapter 11 and “ Indeed, it is appropriate that the laws themselves should in some cases give way to the executive power,…” John Locke's Second Treatise of Government Chapter 14


c. Thomas Jefferson to John B. Colvin: “ ... circumstances do not sometimes occur, which make it a duty in officers of high trust, to assume authorities beyond the law, ...” Article 2, Section 3: Thomas Jefferson to John B. Colvin



2. Locke concluded that the people would, ultimately, decide: ““The people,” Locke wrote, “observing the whole tendency of their actions to be the public good, contested not what was done without law to that end, or, if any human frailty or mistake—for princes are but men, made as others—appeared in some small declinations from that end, yet it was visible the main of their conduct tended to nothing but the care of the public. The people, therefore, finding reason to be satisfied with these princes whenever they acted without or contrary to the letter of the law, acquiesced in what they did….” Op. cit.

a. The outcome of the constitutional struggle over the Iran-Contra matter would be decided in that exact way: by public judgment of the political clash in Washington. The joint House-Senate committee investigation of the Iran-Contra affair—an investigation Democrats likened to Watergate and hoped would end with Reagan’s impeachment—took a turn President Reagan’s critics had not expected when Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North appeared and delivered a devastatingly effective attack on liberals in Congress for their irresponsible meddling in foreign policy.

Public opinion decisively shifted in Reagan’s favor, and the liberal dream of driving another Republican president from office died quickly. In other words, the people judged, just as Locke said they should, and judged that Reagan had acted properly, if not necessarily wisely.
The Unsolvable Problem of Executive Power | Power Line


This is the real meaning of Iran-Contra.

 

[BlindBoo]

There were two different investigations.
The Congress, and Walsh.
Iran Contra was the former.
There were no convictions.

Walsh succeeded in getting convictions for non-political crimes, e.g., obstruction of justice.

The congressional committees Iran-Contra convictions were overturned.

Those pardoned were found guilty of withholding of information, defrauding the government, underreporting earnings, perjury, felony theft.


The Iran-Contra convictions were infractions of the Boland Amendment.

"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion. Poindexter's supervision of North and his own participation in the Iran and contra operations were early focuses of Independent Counsel's investigation."
Walsh Iran / Contra Report - Chapter 3 United States v. John M. Poindexter

The convictions were overturned: none were convicted of the Iran-Contra indictments.

Again:
"Poindexter, Lt. Col. Oliver North and McFarlane were the three individuals Attorney General Edwin Meese III identified on November 25, 1986, as knowledgeable of the diversion."

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK3Nx8_A40]When you dance to 'The Sidestep' inside the Texas State Capital building in Austin - YouTube[/ame]

The charges are specific.

Some were charged with breaking the law passed by Congress, i.e., " The amendment outlawed U.S. assistance to the Contras for the purpose of overthrowing the Nicaraguan government, while allowing assistance for other purposes."
Boland Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There were only two found guilty of the above. The convictions were overturned.
Thus....there were no individuals found guilty in Iran-Contra.


Do you disagree?

Of course I do.

 

[NYcarbineer]

"So is Obama appearing as guilty here as Reagan was with Iran Contra?"


You're not actually admitting to ignorance by claiming that President Reagan....or anyone in his administration was found guilty of any crime associated with Iran-Contra.....

...are you?

lol, I'm bookmarking this post the next time you claim you never got anything wrong.

Wrong, boy....

See post #65

You seriously want us to allow you to invent a definition of what constituted an Iran-Contra conviction and then use your invention to claim there were no convictions?

You get more stupid every day.

 

[PoliticalChic]

lol, I'm bookmarking this post the next time you claim you never got anything wrong.

Wrong, boy....

See post #65

You seriously want us to allow you to invent a definition of what constituted an Iran-Contra conviction and then use your invention to claim there were no convictions?

You get more stupid every day.

Who is "us"?

 

[PoliticalChic]

When you dance to 'The Sidestep' inside the Texas State Capital building in Austin - YouTube

The charges are specific.

Some were charged with breaking the law passed by Congress, i.e., " The amendment outlawed U.S. assistance to the Contras for the purpose of overthrowing the Nicaraguan government, while allowing assistance for other purposes."
Boland Amendment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There were only two found guilty of the above. The convictions were overturned.
Thus....there were no individuals found guilty in Iran-Contra.


Do you disagree?

Of course I do.

Well, I can't force you to be right.


1. " Poindexter, North, and two arms dealers Richard Secord and Albert Hakim were charged with “conspiring to defraud the U.S. by establishing and concealing a plan for illegally supporting the Nicaraguan contras.” Poindexter and North were accused of “trying to cover up their illicit actions by destroying and removing documents and making false statements.” Bibliography -


a. This is the key part: " establishing and concealing a plan for illegally supporting the Nicaraguan contras.”

The others were charged to put pressure on them to become witnesses.

As I pointed out, the other charges were not related to the plan stated above, which was an infraction of the Boland amendment.

2. Richard V. Secord, Retired (born 1932 in LaRue, Ohio), is a United States Air Force officer convicted for his involvement with the Iran-Contra scandal. He was exonerated after a 1990 Supreme Court case found the statute used to be illegal. Richard Secord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Hakim was charged with five felonies which were dismissed and subsequently pled guilty in a plea bargain to a misdemeanor, and was sentenced to probation and a fine of $5000 Albert Hakim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So.....no one was convicted of Iran-Contra crimes.

No one.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Wrong, boy....

See post #65

You seriously want us to allow you to invent a definition of what constituted an Iran-Contra conviction and then use your invention to claim there were no convictions?

You get more stupid every day.

Who is "us"?

The several people you are trying to argue with about the Iran Contra convictions.

"Us" is a plural pronoun in English.

 

[PoliticalChic]

You seriously want us to allow you to invent a definition of what constituted an Iran-Contra conviction and then use your invention to claim there were no convictions?

You get more stupid every day.

Who is "us"?

The several people you are trying to argue with about the Iran Contra convictions.

"Us" is a plural pronoun in English.

So.....they elected you to speak for them?

Stand on your own four legs.


And don't sulk just because I beat you again, little fella.....



Think of it this way: I'm weaning you away from the mother's-milk of Leftist propaganda.



"The several people you are trying to argue with about the Iran Contra convictions."
I'm not arguing.....I'm instructing.