Income Inequality is a result of Individual Effort/Choices

[Mathbud1]

Do you really not see the difference between an income of 125,000 dollars a year and 15 million dollars a year?

Just because BOTH numbers fall in the top 10%, there is a HUGE disparity in the amounts. No one has an issue with the professional who provides a needed service or product who make a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. They earn it far as I am concerned.

But lets talk about a hedge fund manage (John Paulson) who made 5 billion dollars last year. There is no fucking way that this person provided societal value to justify making 5 billion dollars. And his tax rate was a whopping 15%.

But I am sure you don't see the difference. Or even see this as a problem. To you the problem seems to be if anyone complains that this is not a good thing for America.

"societal value"?

What job does provide societal value in your opinion?

How would you like to see societal value determining pay?

Salaries for most jobs (including both the "professional who provides a needed service or product" and the hedge fund manager) are paid by companies. The company pays the salary based on the value they place on the work of the person receiving it. Are you saying that the salary should not be determined by the company, but rather by the government? That seems to be the only way to pay based on the "societal value" of a job. How many people are going to become CEO's if that suddenly becomes one of the lowest paying jobs out there? How well is any company going to do without clear direction and leadership? If the companies that provide all our jobs fall apart, what happens to the "professional who provides a needed service or product?" I'm guessing he doesn't keep providing that needed service or product.

Yes, it makes me jealous that someone out there is making 100 times as much as me for doing what seems like nothing to me. Does that mean that he is a thief, or that I am entitled to a portion of that money because I feel like my job provides more "societal value" than his?

No. Plain and simple.

Really? You had to ask that question.

How about doctors, engineers, architects, maybe a lawyer, a teacher etc. They all can make a pretty good amount of money. And they all provide a value to our society.

Your turn. What "value" did the hedge fund manager making 5 billion dollars, what value did he impart to society? You know, people like you and me.

Not to his partners or his ultra rich investors. Or even his rich rich investors. He used QE money and the casino of the past year on Wall street and guessed right and made 5 billion dollars.

And didn't provide one bit of value to the overall society.

I don't care he made a killing. But 5 billion. At 15% tax rate. Using government provided funds. (you do know the Federal Reserve was the source of the QE money? Right?)

Fuck that.

I asked the question because you implied that societal value should somehow determine what we are paid.

And I ask again, how do you envision societal value determining wages?

 

[ScienceRocks]

That teacher makes all those subjects possible. Think about that for a second.

 

[zeke]

Let me ask you this briarpatty.

If 90% of the nation wealth was held by only 5% of the people, would that be a good thing?

Of course you MUST say that it would be a good thing. If the current situation is good (which you claim it is) then a better situation must exist if the ultra wealthy controlled even more. If the ultra wealthy had all the money, would that be the best case?

But it wouldn't be ok. it would be a disaster. And that is the way we are heading. More and more of the countries wealth and income held by fewer people. Given enough time and opportunity, the ultra wealthy will control all the wealth and income. It is what they do. How they measure their success.
They are plutocrats.

Why do you love and support plutocrats? You support people like Timothy Geitner? Obama's rich buddies? Why do you support them? They don't do a fucking thing for YOU dude?

hey and that hedge fund manager making billions. He did it off the QE policies of the Federal Reserve. I thought you hated that shit (Quantitative Easing).

Having money is great... if you have somewhere to spend it. Having power is wonderful... if you have power over something. So, if we're on track for a small percentage of the population to have ALL the wealth, and ALL the power, where are they going to spend that wealth and use that power? I assume that since the rest of us will have NO wealth and NO power we will all just die off. I guess those rich guys will just have to learn how to grow food for themselves, make clothes for themselves, build and maintain houses for themselves, build, sail and repair yachts for themselves...

Rich people don't hoard money to NOT have anywhere to spend it.

You might want to read about some past societies where the wealth was controlled by just a few. It has happened.

You know what a "plutocrat" is? A plutocracy? Ever read about the robber barons we had in this country. The aristocracy of old England? France? Saudi Arabia? Do you really not know of any time when the ultra wealth pretty much ran the world? And everybody else sucked hind tit. Use your Google.

But they (ultra wealthy) wouldn't have those goals today, seems to be the belief.

Do you think that if a people ignores history, that history can and will repeat itself?

 

[whitehall]

You can add luck to the equation and family, friends and community help. Would you rather live in a socialist grey world where everyone's income is guaranteed equal except for the elites who are more equal than others? How did it work out in Orwell's "Animal Farm" or Stalin's Russia?

 

[ScienceRocks]

You can add luck to the equation and family, friends and community help. Would you rather live in a socialist grey world where everyone's income is guaranteed equal except for the elites who are more equal than others? How did it work out in Orwell's "Animal Farm" or Stalin's Russia?

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

 

[zeke]

"societal value"?

What job does provide societal value in your opinion?

How would you like to see societal value determining pay?

Salaries for most jobs (including both the "professional who provides a needed service or product" and the hedge fund manager) are paid by companies. The company pays the salary based on the value they place on the work of the person receiving it. Are you saying that the salary should not be determined by the company, but rather by the government? That seems to be the only way to pay based on the "societal value" of a job. How many people are going to become CEO's if that suddenly becomes one of the lowest paying jobs out there? How well is any company going to do without clear direction and leadership? If the companies that provide all our jobs fall apart, what happens to the "professional who provides a needed service or product?" I'm guessing he doesn't keep providing that needed service or product.

Yes, it makes me jealous that someone out there is making 100 times as much as me for doing what seems like nothing to me. Does that mean that he is a thief, or that I am entitled to a portion of that money because I feel like my job provides more "societal value" than his?

No. Plain and simple.

Really? You had to ask that question.

How about doctors, engineers, architects, maybe a lawyer, a teacher etc. They all can make a pretty good amount of money. And they all provide a value to our society.

Your turn. What "value" did the hedge fund manager making 5 billion dollars, what value did he impart to society? You know, people like you and me.

Not to his partners or his ultra rich investors. Or even his rich rich investors. He used QE money and the casino of the past year on Wall street and guessed right and made 5 billion dollars.

And didn't provide one bit of value to the overall society.

I don't care he made a killing. But 5 billion. At 15% tax rate. Using government provided funds. (you do know the Federal Reserve was the source of the QE money? Right?)

Fuck that.

I asked the question because you implied that societal value should somehow determine what we are paid.

And I ask again, how do you envision societal value determining wages?

You being purposefully obtuse? Why.

Societal value determines pay all the time. Every day. All day.

Why do you think the burger flipper doesn't get paid what the doctor gets paid? Let me help. Society (you and I and our fellow citizens) have looked at the benefit provided by the doctor and have agreed to pay them the rates they charge. Within reason.

The burger flipper is being paid at a level that reflects the benefit he provides to society. And his company.

If a doctor came out and said he was now charging 50,000 dollars an hour for his services, MOST of society would not be able to take advantage of his (the doctors) efforts. And would not consider his service a value.

But a burger flipper wanting to go from 8 bucks an hour to 9, it could be said that his value as a burger flipper is in line with what our society thinks is a fair rate for that labor.

Hope that helps in your lack of understanding of societal values and the marketplace.

 

[Vox]

You can add luck to the equation and family, friends and community help. Would you rather live in a socialist grey world where everyone's income is guaranteed equal except for the elites who are more equal than others? How did it work out in Orwell's "Animal Farm" or Stalin's Russia?

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

 

[Vox]

Really? You had to ask that question.

How about doctors, engineers, architects, maybe a lawyer, a teacher etc. They all can make a pretty good amount of money. And they all provide a value to our society.

Your turn. What "value" did the hedge fund manager making 5 billion dollars, what value did he impart to society? You know, people like you and me.

Not to his partners or his ultra rich investors. Or even his rich rich investors. He used QE money and the casino of the past year on Wall street and guessed right and made 5 billion dollars.

And didn't provide one bit of value to the overall society.

I don't care he made a killing. But 5 billion. At 15% tax rate. Using government provided funds. (you do know the Federal Reserve was the source of the QE money? Right?)

Fuck that.

I asked the question because you implied that societal value should somehow determine what we are paid.

And I ask again, how do you envision societal value determining wages?

You being purposefully obtuse? Why.

Societal value determines pay all the time. Every day. All day.

Why do you think the burger flipper doesn't get paid what the doctor gets paid? Let me help. Society (you and I and our fellow citizens) have looked at the benefit provided by the doctor and have agreed to pay them the rates they charge. Within reason.

The burger flipper is being paid at a level that reflects the benefit he provides to society. And his company.

If a doctor came out and said he was now charging 50,000 dollars an hour for his services, MOST of society would not be able to take advantage of his (the doctors) efforts. And would not consider his service a value.

But a burger flipper wanting to go from 8 bucks an hour to 9, it could be said that his value as a burger flipper is in line with what our society thinks is a fair rate for that labor.

Hope that helps in your lack of understanding of societal values and the marketplace.

the societal value is determined by the old formula of supply and demand.

THAT IS IT. Period.

anything else is artificial and will only impair the fair compensation for the needed professions.

 

[ScienceRocks]

You can add luck to the equation and family, friends and community help. Would you rather live in a socialist grey world where everyone's income is guaranteed equal except for the elites who are more equal than others? How did it work out in Orwell's "Animal Farm" or Stalin's Russia?

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

Quite a few people are living pretty damn close to it. You're for the billionaire that pays 12% taxes while other people are deep in debt trying to make it.

 

[The Rabbi]

Top Ten Lists :: Highest Paying Jobs
Three rules for staying out of poverty | members.jacksonville.com
With all this recent ado about income inequality and the plight of the poor, I think we need to ask a simple question. That question is "What choices led them to become poor?" Liberals love to think of people as completely out of control of their financial state. That is 100% bogus. For starters this list clearly shows that the wealthy members of society largely got that way through a lot of education and hard work. Note that almost all of the top average salaries are in the medical field. The CEOs that liberals deride are actually #22 on the list. For the most part, the difference in income is largely a result of years of education and their rigor. Liberals love to talk about the unemployed college grads as signs of corporations "being greedy", but students who major in something rigorous like engineering or math do fine. It's the students who do cakewalk grievance/liberal studies majors who do poorly. Thus, careers like engineering/actuaries are around the $100,000 mark for average salary. Postgraduate degrees in legitimate fields like medicine, as well as MBAs, also do very well.
The moral of the story here is that entering the coveted "1%" can be attained simply by earning a medical degree and working for some number of years. Getting to the top 10%(about $125,000/year in household income) could be attained very easily by an average engineer with a spouse as a schoolteacher. This doesn't sound to me like a problem of people exploiting others to get to the top. It appears that wealth simply indicates that someone made smart decisions in life regarding their education. One argument against this is that college is too expensive for poor families. While this is partially true, the reality is that Pell Grants/federal student loans have driven up college prices(government action to lessen inequality actually increased it as is often the case ); the impact of this dis-proportionally hits the middle class, as poor students qualify for a lot of financial aid at most schools. That being said, getting good grades in high school makes college much, much more affordable. Since none of these careers requires an Ivy League degree, a state university, which offers lots of scholarships to top students, is the best bet. I know that any student who gets a National Merit Finalist (about 220+ on the PSAT, scores vary depending on state) automatically gets a full ride to schools like University of Alabama and University of Central Florida. Even state schools that don't offer full rides still tend to offer full-tuition for good students with high grades/test scores(top schools like UC Berkeley and University of Virginia are exceptions).

On the flip side, what causes people to earn low levels of income, particularly below the poverty line? Most people who fall into poverty don't do any of these three things - wait until 21 to get married/not have kids before marriage, graduate high school, and having a full-time job. I understand that the last one may have some factors beyond a person's control, but the first 2 are 100% a result of your choices. And people in the lowest income rungs violate all three norms, on average. And those in poverty because they don't have jobs are partially victims of the Obama economy, but personal choices still influence it greatly. Graduates from Purdue University Calumet in engineering, an affordable, not-very-selective school, have next to a 100% chance of getting a job. It's the dropouts and lousy major recipients that have problems.

Liberals, all I'm trying to get at is this: the income inequality that you bemoan is a result of inequality in effort and ability. Clearly, careers make a huge difference on people's income, and you simply can't equate a doctor and a garbage truck driver. Let's stop resenting success and try to emulate the "evil rich" rather than castigate them.

So what caused the crash in 2008 that put so many people out of work and trashed our economy? Personal choices? Gally-damn, the turnip truck just swung through here and you fell off.

Why is that even relevant? Prior to the crash the income/wealth distribution was similar. The crash actually cost wealthier people much more. They have since recovered, a fact being celebrated by liberals in another thread on here.

 

[The Rabbi]

doctors, engineers, architects, maybe a lawyer, a teacher and maybe a good ceo should of course get the most money. They benefit our society the most over all.

A good teacher should probably get 100k per year. Certainly it wouldn't be wrong.

So why dont teachers make 100k/year?

 

[bripat9643]

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

Quite a few people are living pretty damn close to it. You're for the billionaire that pays 12% taxes while other people are deep in debt trying to make it.

Horseshit. No one is even close to starving. The biggest health problem among the poor is obesity.

It's incredible how ignorant liberals are about the facts of reality.

 

[bripat9643]

doctors, engineers, architects, maybe a lawyer, a teacher and maybe a good ceo should of course get the most money. They benefit our society the most over all.

A good teacher should probably get 100k per year. Certainly it wouldn't be wrong.

So why dont teachers make 100k/year?

Because it doesn't take a lot of brains to get a teaching certificate.

 

[ScienceRocks]

We need to focus on getting the poor into the middle class. More education. is the answer...

We need to also reform our educational system.

 

[Vox]

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

Quite a few people are living pretty damn close to it. You're for the billionaire that pays 12% taxes while other people are deep in debt trying to make it.

I do not care any more about a billionaire than I do about fatsos who need 35 thousand calories per day, otherwise they are "starving".

well, actually I think the fatsos should be put on a diet - and cut their supply of "free" money so they finally can make it to the normal size.

a billionaire and his taxes is the least of my concerns in this country.

it is obvious you have problems with math

 

[norwegen]

What is so hard about adding 100 dollars worth of food stamps onto the current system? People shouldn't have to starve for failure.

We have automation and computers to make it work unlike the 20th century.

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

Quite a few people are living pretty damn close to it. You're for the billionaire that pays 12% taxes while other people are deep in debt trying to make it.

True, the poverty rate has gone up since '09 - '10. Remember who controlled the Congress and the White House then?

And we have added $100 to food stamp disbursements. Two or three times over. So this issue is resolved for you now. Good.

 

[ScienceRocks]

nobody is starving in the US, so stop lying.

Quite a few people are living pretty damn close to it. You're for the billionaire that pays 12% taxes while other people are deep in debt trying to make it.

True, the poverty rate has gone up since '09 - '10. Remember who controlled the Congress and the White House then?

And we have added $100 to food stamp disbursements. Two or three times over. So this issue is resolved for you now. Good.

We need to adopt a first rate educational system...Maybe norways? 17th best isn't going to keep us number one.

 

[Political Junky]

Let me ask you this briarpatty.

If 90% of the nation wealth was held by only 5% of the people, would that be a good thing?

Of course you MUST say that it would be a good thing. If the current situation is good (which you claim it is) then a better situation must exist if the ultra wealthy controlled even more. If the ultra wealthy had all the money, would that be the best case?

But it wouldn't be ok. it would be a disaster. And that is the way we are heading. More and more of the countries wealth and income held by fewer people. Given enough time and opportunity, the ultra wealthy will control all the wealth and income. It is what they do. How they measure their success.
They are plutocrats.

Why do you love and support plutocrats? You support people like Timothy Geitner? Obama's rich buddies? Why do you support them? They don't do a fucking thing for YOU dude?

hey and that hedge fund manager making billions. He did it off the QE policies of the Federal Reserve. I thought you hated that shit (Quantitative Easing).

Having money is great... if you have somewhere to spend it. Having power is wonderful... if you have power over something. So, if we're on track for a small percentage of the population to have ALL the wealth, and ALL the power, where are they going to spend that wealth and use that power? I assume that since the rest of us will have NO wealth and NO power we will all just die off. I guess those rich guys will just have to learn how to grow food for themselves, make clothes for themselves, build and maintain houses for themselves, build, sail and repair yachts for themselves...

Rich people don't hoard money to NOT have anywhere to spend it.

You might want to read about some past societies where the wealth was controlled by just a few. It has happened.

You know what a "plutocrat" is? A plutocracy? Ever read about the robber barons we had in this country. The aristocracy of old England? France? Saudi Arabia? Do you really not know of any time when the ultra wealth pretty much ran the world? And everybody else sucked hind tit. Use your Google.

But they (ultra wealthy) wouldn't have those goals today, seems to be the belief.

Do you think that if a people ignores history, that history can and will repeat itself?

This disparity of income last happened prior to the Great Depression.

 

[Rozman]

I saw a lot of people shopping during the Hoiday season.
How many of them were already in debt and they went deeper into it...

 

[velvtacheeze]

Yes, the choices of people at the top to pay themselves bloated salaries, and leave the scraps for the unwashed.

Seriously, the defensiveness of conservatives on the issue of the minimum wage is telling. I the Democrats are onto something there. Conservative opposition to modest increases in the minimum wage should be used like a cudgel against the skulls of vulnerable GOPers.