Immigration is Destroying America.

[Unkotare]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

A perfectly logical counterpoint.

Trouble is, going to the outside is the easy way out, for business, and so we never generate any incentive to change the dependency.

It's been that way for decades now... and it never gets any better.

Clearly, something different is required, in order to find that better balance.

And in the meantime the economy stagnates and/or those jobs find their way overseas?

All this talk of a "pathway to citizenship" for those who ran across the border. Better to offer a pathway for highly skilled workers who tend to bring with them a strong work ethic, advanced educational background, and sound values. Their children - their AMERICAN children if such a pathway is open to them - will NOT be among those you are wondering how to retrain in the next generation. They will be AMERICANS making AMERICA better and more competitive.

 

[RKMBrown]

Well, that's one opinion.

I vote otherwise; to train or re-train the American to do the job.

Better than bringing-in an outsider, while leaving a mouth to feed amongst our own.

We take care of our own, first.

Then, if we can't find any other way to fill the job, then, and only then, do we go to the outside.

How do you propose to do this forced retraining of American citizens?...

No force whatsoever, and strictly voluntarily, from the worker end.

We have model programming in-place already, for this purpose.

The Federal 'Workforce Investment Act' (WIA), with US Dept of Labor funding, as well as State-level and local-level Funding, passing down to the County level, for recruitment and local administration, in collaboration with local colleges and trade schools.


No shoving of training down throats.

No forcing them to do anything.

Speaking only for myself, I am not proposing WorkFare.


Depends, on a county-by-county basis.

WIA programs, working with State- and Federal -level Depts of Labor, routinely canvass their local counties, determining on an annual basis, what jobs, trades, etc., are most in demand within those jurisdictions, and those sorts of rolls get first priority, on WIA training dollars.

In my own county in Illinois, at present, this means Network Engineers, Network Administrators, Website Developers, Database Developers and Administrators, Technology Help Desk Workers, Computer Repair Technicians, CDL-licensed heavy truck drivers, forklift operators, factory machinists and tool & die workers, CNC programmers, plumbing apprentices, electrician apprentices, medical records specialists, nurse-assistants and nurses, cooks, chefs and other food prep staffers, and on and on and on... probably six or seven dozen jobs, roles, trades, etc., that are high in demand within the county, and for which the local WIA Board will allocate WIA grant money for eligible candidates who jump through the hoops to get the grant.


If there aren't enough folks available to do the kind of job that I do, I'd certainly support training Americans to join me in what I do, and getting them off welfare, rather than bringing in hired-guns from outside the country, to do the job.


Not that it's any of your business, but I'm an independent technology consultant; having managed mid-range hardware and software departments for manufacturers, nationwide logistics and distribution, and national and metro-level charity and nonprofit social services agencies.


If my job is at-issue, and if I'm going to lose it anyway, then, what-the-hell... I'd rather it go to a fellow American than go to a foreigner, especially if it gets that American off of welfare for good.


1. again, we're not forcing them.

2. we minimize the likelihood that they'll suck, by vetting them properly prior to training; all kinds of standardized tests designed to weed-out the unlikely prospects; some counties make their WIA grant applicants jump through a lot of hoops to ensure commitment; hell, some even require mandatory 1- or 2- week -long Boot Camps re: reading, logic, math, writing, ethics, communications, teamwork, leadership, etc., including segment-testing; flunk the tests, you don't get the grant money. Some counties are more lax than that.

...We gonna let them starve this time, or are we gonna just find a 3rd, 4th, 5th etc job for them till we have forced them to retrain in something they like that also pays a living? ...

For those who DO fail, of course we don't let them starve. Lighten up on the dramatics, eh?

WIA training, as I recall, is a one-time training grant.

Either you make it, and run with it, or you slide back into the morass; your choice.

If we ever see fit to broaden such initiatives, I'm sure we can tweak the "Second Chance" idea, as seems best to everyone, on a county-by-county or State or Federal basis.

...We are paying good tax payer dollars to fund kids to among other things learn how to be rap stars. Is that a good way to spend tax payer dollars?

I don't recall 'Rap Star' being an In-Demand Job in the WIA Grant Priority Lists of the DuPage Count, Will County, or Lake County, Illinois, WIA publications for employers and grant-seekers. Somehow, I don't think the local county Workforce Investment Board is gonna give-out grant money for Rap Star School.

===================

Bottom line... I'd much rather see us eat the front-end load to re-train an American rather than eat five or ten or twenty times as much, by propping-up that American with the Safety Net, because we went to the outside for a job we could have trained the American for.

Re-train an American, and you spend a dime (training), to make a dollar (in saved welfare costs).

Bring in the outsider rather than re-train the American, and you eventually spend a dollar (in welfare costs), to save a dime (refrain from re-training an American).

Once total costs to society are take into account, the 're-training option' begins to look quite attractive.

Ok so you are talking about forcing me to pay for expensive resort style 1/1 boot camp training programs in the form of hand ups to the people who are currently forcing me to pay for hand-outs, this for the ones that seek to get off the hand-outs. This because we have a hand-out system in the first place. IMO get rid of the forced federal hand-outs and hand ups entirely. Charity should not be taken by force. The ends are not justified by your means. Why do you think you have the right to take food off my children's table to fund this program of yours to train people to take my job at an entry level salary? If these people want to go to your boot camp let them take out a loan for it or save up for it.

There were non-federal charity and job based job-training programs long before the feds decided to get involved.

 

[priceless]

Once upon a time, the pilgrims quit their jobs in England to move to Holland and then quit their jobs in Holland to move to North America and become independent farmers. They did it for religious and economic freedom, not job opportunities or welfare benefits (unless you consider land-access a welfare benefit).

Despite the US declaring independence from global colonial regimes, the regime of global capitalism persists into the present, and what's worse is that global critics have the gaul to blame it all on the US because global investment loves to pump in and extract money from US markets more than almost anywhere else.

Migration is channeled to economies with the most entitlements and highest GDP per-capita to bolster global GDP growth. It is not migration that is harming global freedom but rather the (ab)use of migrants and non-migrants as economic mules to drive global GDP growth.

If economic well-being was increasingly separated from financial activity, migration would not pose a threat to anyone because migrants would just be people looking for someplace to live independently. Currently, it's hard to expect that from migrants, however, when non-migrant populations fail to do much that doesn't involve making and spending money as part of GDP growth.

Maybe if non-migrants did more to reduce their spending and income-dependency, they could expect the same from migrants. Currently, however, I think that most (low wage) migrant workers are actually better at living independently because they work largely on farms and take care of themselves. Even those that do work besides farm work are probably taking and spending less money in the economy than non-migrant counterparts.

Generally, the false belief that eliminating migrant competition is somehow good for the economy by raising wages for non-migrant citizens should be replaced with an understanding that anyone taking and spending less in the economy for whatever reason is basically subsidizing everyone else. Taking a smaller piece of the pie leaves more for everyone else. This is true whether you're taking a smaller piece because you are a migrant worker or because you're paid less because you are competing with migrant workers.

Getting rid of migrant competition and raising non-migrant wages as a result is as bad for the economy as it would be to stop buying foreign oil and replace it with domestic oil at a higher price per gallon. It simply drives up prices of products and services by shrinking the labor pool. Of course, maybe this is exactly what's needed to return the economy to more self-sufficiency and independence in the spirit of what the Plymouth Rock pilgrims sought.

 

[Kondor3]

Ok so you are talking about forcing me to pay for expensive resort style 1/1 boot camp training programs...

Such boot camps (the 1- or 2-week -long WIA variety that I've seen here in Illinois) are Monday thru Friday, 9am - 3pm, in a local junior college campus classroom.

Hardly a resort environment.

...in the form of hand ups to the people who are currently forcing me to pay for hand-outs, this for the ones that seek to get off the hand-outs...

Yep.

Look at it this way.

You're already stuck paying X to prop-up each displaced worker.

Why not pay 1/4 of X, to train the worker, and save the 3/4 X?

...This because we have a hand-out system in the first place. IMO get rid of the forced federal hand-outs and hand ups entirely. Charity should not be taken by force...

You and I must deal with the world of "what is", and not "what we want it to be", yes?

The world that you and I live in, has a Safety Net, a Welfare System.

Everything that we do or say here, in connection with Job Training or Retraining, must take into account that Real World; not whether you or I object to the existence of, or the depth of, the Safety Net.

That having been said...

...The ends are not justified by your means...

Disagree.

The end (getting a displaced worker off welfare and back on a paying basis again, and thereby saving endless outlays for more hand-outs) is entirely justified by the means (using a small fraction of what we would otherwise pay-out in handouts, for training).

...Why do you think you have the right to take food off my children's table to fund this program of yours...

I propose that you (and I) shell out a fraction of what we would otherwise shell out, to retrain that displaced worker, and to get him (or her) to stop taking Welfare Handouts, rather than continue to shovel money at him (or her) as welfare benefits, with no end in sight.

If enough people think like me, in this respect, that is what we will do.

If enough people think like you, in this respect, we will not do this.

It's all part of the fun of representative democracy.

... to train people to take my job at an entry level salary?...

Better that an American be trained to take my job at an entry level salary, rather than giving it to a foreigner who will take my job at an entry level salary, and leave us with a hungry American mouth to feed on the dole, to boot.

...If these people want to go to your boot camp let them take out a loan for it...

The boot camp (if offered by a particular county) only gets them ready to go back for vocational training... the training itself comes after they've successfully completed the boot camp... and after the County has sent a Tuition Voucher to the community college or private trade school that will do the actual professional-caliber training.

For those in a position to take-out a loan... no problem... that's exactly what they should do.

For those in a sufficiently wretched position where they cannot take out a loan, well, that's what programs like WIA are there for.

...There were non-federal charity and job based job-training programs long before the feds decided to get involved.

For those who could afford it, or who were in a position to take out a loan... quite probably.

For those who could not afford it, or who were not in a position to take out a loan... not so much.

 

[Kondor3]

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

A perfectly logical counterpoint.

Trouble is, going to the outside is the easy way out, for business, and so we never generate any incentive to change the dependency.

It's been that way for decades now... and it never gets any better.

Clearly, something different is required, in order to find that better balance.

And in the meantime the economy stagnates and/or those jobs find their way overseas?

And there's the rub, of course.

Finding that 'sweet spot' - that middle ground - that empowers and revitalizes the American labor force while leaving enough wiggle room to go to the outside when there is no practical alternative.

How we DEFINE that 'sweet spot' and how we REACH that 'sweet spot' should be a matter for serious national conversation.

...All this talk of a "pathway to citizenship" for those who ran across the border. Better to offer a pathway for highly skilled workers who tend to bring with them a strong work ethic, advanced educational background, and sound values. Their children - their AMERICAN children if such a pathway is open to them - will NOT be among those you are wondering how to retrain in the next generation. They will be AMERICANS making AMERICA better and more competitive.

Trouble with that is, if you offer a 'path to citizenship' for some, you're gonna get stuck offering a 'path to citizenship' for all Illegals, and that is unpalatable to a great many.

Best to leave the Illegals out of any such discussion and focus upon skilled and talented Legal Immigrants, as a modest piece of this larger American labor equation.

And, frankly, although your arguments about 'their American children' sound nice, it will be well to remember that most of the displaced American workers at-issue here are the second and third generations of hard-working immigrants themselves.

Shit happens, as the generations pass; some members of each generation make it through school, and end-up doing well. Others don't. The second and third and fourth generation descendants of any immigrants at-issue here will be no different in that respect; a mixed bag.

 

[RKMBrown]

Ok so you are talking about forcing me to pay for expensive resort style 1/1 boot camp training programs...

Such boot camps (the 1- or 2-week -long WIA variety that I've seen here in Illinois) are Monday thru Friday, 9am - 3pm, in a local junior college campus classroom.

Hardly a resort environment.

...in the form of hand ups to the people who are currently forcing me to pay for hand-outs, this for the ones that seek to get off the hand-outs...

Yep.

Look at it this way.

You're already stuck paying X to prop-up each displaced worker.

Why not pay 1/4 of X, to train the worker, and save the 3/4 X?


You and I must deal with the world of "what is", and not "what we want it to be", yes?

The world that you and I live in, has a Safety Net, a Welfare System.

Everything that we do or say here, in connection with Job Training or Retraining, must take into account that Real World; not whether you or I object to the existence of, or the depth of, the Safety Net.

That having been said...


Disagree.

The end (getting a displaced worker off welfare and back on a paying basis again, and thereby saving endless outlays for more hand-outs) is entirely justified by the means (using a small fraction of what we would otherwise pay-out in handouts, for training).


I propose that you (and I) shell out a fraction of what we would otherwise shell out, to retrain that displaced worker, and to get him (or her) to stop taking Welfare Handouts, rather than continue to shovel money at him (or her) as welfare benefits, with no end in sight.

If enough people think like me, in this respect, that is what we will do.

If enough people think like you, in this respect, we will not do this.

It's all part of the fun of representative democracy.


Better that an American be trained to take my job at an entry level salary, rather than giving it to a foreigner who will take my job at an entry level salary, and leave us with a hungry American mouth to feed on the dole, to boot.

...If these people want to go to your boot camp let them take out a loan for it...

The boot camp (if offered by a particular county) only gets them ready to go back for vocational training... the training itself comes after they've successfully completed the boot camp... and after the County has sent a Tuition Voucher to the community college or private trade school that will do the actual professional-caliber training.

For those in a position to take-out a loan... no problem... that's exactly what they should do.

For those in a sufficiently wretched position where they cannot take out a loan, well, that's what programs like WIA are there for.

...There were non-federal charity and job based job-training programs long before the feds decided to get involved.

For those who could afford it, or who were in a position to take out a loan... quite probably.

For those who could not afford it, or who were not in a position to take out a loan... not so much.

So basically I'm hearing that I should be punished by my government through h1b immigration, because that's the way it is. I should be punished through wage redistribution, because that's the way it is. And I should be punished by being forced to pay to train my replacements both here and abroad. Abroad through government incentives using my money to ship my job overseas and here through government incentives using my money to train unskilled workers to flood the same job market my government is working to inshore and off-shore.

Are you sure there's not some other way you can come up with to spend my money for the benefit of all but my family? Why stop here? Why not take all of my money and assets and spread it around as you see fit? I'm sure you can justify all sorts of good programs that I should be forced to buy. Me and others like me worked our asses off our whole lives, only to be screwed over by our government every which way from sunday. I mean I understand that you might benefit from this and that I can also get on the gravy train of the people working to reset American salaries of technical workers to minimum wage but, damn dude... really? My income can only be spread around so much before I'll just say to hell with this and sit back and collect just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

FYI ends justify the means.. yeah you really are saying the immoral act of enslaving me and my family through wage garnishments is justified by using it to train workers to replace me or at least enter the market increasing supply of available labor.

I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

 

[Kondor3]

...So basically you are saying I should be punished by my government through h1b immigration...

I am saying that you and I should consider ponying-up some money so that (a) we have LESS H1B immigration because we have (b) trained an American to do that job and (c) we have simultaneously taken that American off the welfare rolls.

More money stays in your pocket, and mine, plus the re-trained worker's wages help to stimulate the local economy, which also benefits you and I, yes?

...I should be punished through wage redistribution...

I do not understand how spending 1/4 of X on a displaced American worker, in order to save 3/4 of X that we would otherwise spend on welfare, constitutes 'wage redistribution'; at least, not with respect to the 3/4 of X that you and I end-up saving by training the guy.

...And I should be punished by being forced to pay to train my replacements both here and abroad...

Are you in a job-role that is at-risk of such a thing happening?

Perhaps you would benefit from some job-retaining?

I suggest taking out a loan.

C'mon. Get real. We're talking about filling jobs that are in-demand; not killing-off old worker bees in favor of newer and cheaper worker-bees.

...Abroad through government incentives using my money to ship my job overseas and here through government incentives using my money to train unskilled workers to flood the same job market my government is working to inshore and off-shore...

I'm having difficulty following what it is that you are trying to day here. Sorry.

...Are you sure there's not some other way you can come up with to screw me and my family over to the benefit of all, but my family, and others like me who worked there asses off their whole lives only to be screwed over by my government...

I fail to see how paying 1/4 X to train someone, in order to save 3/4 X, is screwing anyone over.

...to benefit folks like you?...

Are you operating under the impression that I've partaken of that program myself?

I have seen such programs operate up-close and personal, because...

1. of my long-standing involvement with large-scale social service agencies that operate one or more WIA programs themselves.

2. my having served as an 'alternate' board member for one of the county-level Workforce Development Boards, on a part-time basis, for a couple of years.

3. my having hired three or four beneficiaries of such grants, over the past 5-6 years.

I am not an expert in such matters, by any stretch of the imagination, but I know enough about them, from a funding and curriculum and performance and prospects perspective, to have a place at the discussion table.

...I mean I understand that you benefit from this...

The only ways that I have benefitted from this are (a) resume building and (b) hiring several workers for a former employer.

...and that I can also get on the gravy train of the people working to reset American salaries of technical workers to minimum wage but, damn dude... really?...

It sounds as though you are in some distress, in connection with your career, and are taking-up the Resistance Position on this, as much out of personal angst, as intellect, and the good of the Nation. Understandable. But not entirely helpful, if true.

...My income can only be spread around so much...

Yours and mine, both.

...before I just say eff you all and sit back and watch just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

I do not see how this helps us to decide whether it is better to train an American worker, and get him off Welfare, or give a job to a foreigner, instead.

 

[Kondor3]

...I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

Yer a funny guy, RK...

Oh, by the way...

My own local County-level Workforce Development Board?

About 2/3 of the Board were either (a) small business owners or (b) managers for larger corporations, last time I looked, 2-3 years ago...

Solid Republicans, mostly, who see the benefit of such programming, and who routinely stand alongside labor-friendly Democrats in connection with this particular program...

A fairly staunch bastion of bipartisanship...

Not exactly your run-of-the-mill Marxist-Socialists...

 

[protectionist]

Getting rid of migrant competition and raising non-migrant wages as a result is as bad for the economy as it would be to stop buying foreign oil and replace it with domestic oil at a higher price per gallon. It simply drives up prices of products and services by shrinking the labor pool.

FALSE! Getting rid of migrant competition and raising non-migrant wages as a result is GOOD for the economy.

1. It increases disposable income (and thereby SALES$$$) by $70 Billion/year now being lost to immigrant remittances$$$$$.

2. It increases disposable income (and thereby SALES$$$), by having higher wages $$ in the pockets of higher paid AMERICANS, doing the jobs the immigrant would have been doing.

3. It allows the govt. to hire more people (from the increased taxes being paid in), thereby increasing disposable income (and thereby SALES$$$).

4. It allows the govt. to hire more people from the reduction in welfare $$ spent as well as extra law enforcement $$ spent, education $$ spent, etc, thereby increasing disposable income (and thereby SALES$$$).

5. It reduces the use of scarce resources, reducing, in turn, the expenditures/imports for foreign oil, et al resources, giving the govt more $$ to hire more AMERICANS, thereby creating more consumers to spend money in the stores (AKA "the economy")

 

[Indeependent]

Ok so you are talking about forcing me to pay for expensive resort style 1/1 boot camp training programs...

Such boot camps (the 1- or 2-week -long WIA variety that I've seen here in Illinois) are Monday thru Friday, 9am - 3pm, in a local junior college campus classroom.

Hardly a resort environment.


Yep.

Look at it this way.

You're already stuck paying X to prop-up each displaced worker.

Why not pay 1/4 of X, to train the worker, and save the 3/4 X?


You and I must deal with the world of "what is", and not "what we want it to be", yes?

The world that you and I live in, has a Safety Net, a Welfare System.

Everything that we do or say here, in connection with Job Training or Retraining, must take into account that Real World; not whether you or I object to the existence of, or the depth of, the Safety Net.

That having been said...


Disagree.

The end (getting a displaced worker off welfare and back on a paying basis again, and thereby saving endless outlays for more hand-outs) is entirely justified by the means (using a small fraction of what we would otherwise pay-out in handouts, for training).


I propose that you (and I) shell out a fraction of what we would otherwise shell out, to retrain that displaced worker, and to get him (or her) to stop taking Welfare Handouts, rather than continue to shovel money at him (or her) as welfare benefits, with no end in sight.

If enough people think like me, in this respect, that is what we will do.

If enough people think like you, in this respect, we will not do this.

It's all part of the fun of representative democracy.


Better that an American be trained to take my job at an entry level salary, rather than giving it to a foreigner who will take my job at an entry level salary, and leave us with a hungry American mouth to feed on the dole, to boot.


The boot camp (if offered by a particular county) only gets them ready to go back for vocational training... the training itself comes after they've successfully completed the boot camp... and after the County has sent a Tuition Voucher to the community college or private trade school that will do the actual professional-caliber training.

For those in a position to take-out a loan... no problem... that's exactly what they should do.

For those in a sufficiently wretched position where they cannot take out a loan, well, that's what programs like WIA are there for.

...There were non-federal charity and job based job-training programs long before the feds decided to get involved.

For those who could afford it, or who were in a position to take out a loan... quite probably.

For those who could not afford it, or who were not in a position to take out a loan... not so much.

So basically I'm hearing that I should be punished by my government through h1b immigration, because that's the way it is. I should be punished through wage redistribution, because that's the way it is. And I should be punished by being forced to pay to train my replacements both here and abroad. Abroad through government incentives using my money to ship my job overseas and here through government incentives using my money to train unskilled workers to flood the same job market my government is working to inshore and off-shore.

Are you sure there's not some other way you can come up with to spend my money for the benefit of all but my family? Why stop here? Why not take all of my money and assets and spread it around as you see fit? I'm sure you can justify all sorts of good programs that I should be forced to buy. Me and others like me worked our asses off our whole lives, only to be screwed over by our government every which way from sunday. I mean I understand that you might benefit from this and that I can also get on the gravy train of the people working to reset American salaries of technical workers to minimum wage but, damn dude... really? My income can only be spread around so much before I'll just say to hell with this and sit back and collect just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

FYI ends justify the means.. yeah you really are saying the immoral act of enslaving me and my family through wage garnishments is justified by using it to train workers to replace me or at least enter the market increasing supply of available labor.

I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

I read these postings wondering EXACTLY what these skills are, besides learning a new programming language (Gee, that should take a whole three days), for which millions of Americans are being displaced.

Let's face reality, these Indian H1-Bs are not exactly REALLY scientists; most of them are practically low IQ morons.

 

[protectionist]

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

A perfectly logical counterpoint.

Trouble is, going to the outside is the easy way out, for business, and so we never generate any incentive to change the dependency.

It's been that way for decades now... and it never gets any better.

Clearly, something different is required, in order to find that better balance.

And in the meantime the economy stagnates and/or those jobs find their way overseas?

All this talk of a "pathway to citizenship" for those who ran across the border. Better to offer a pathway for highly skilled workers who tend to bring with them a strong work ethic, advanced educational background, and sound values. Their children - their AMERICAN children if such a pathway is open to them - will NOT be among those you are wondering how to retrain in the next generation. They will be AMERICANS making AMERICA better and more competitive.

The point is these skilled workers from abroad are NOT NEEDED, as there are plenty of skilled Americans to fill the jobs (despite BS propaganda from unscrupulous employers simply looking to boost the profits with cheap, foreign labor). And it doesn't make America better to do what will perpetuate massive unemployment, while America's jobs are handed over to foreigners on a silver platter (known as a work visa).
Ho Hum. How many times can we repeat this, all in one thread ?

 

[protectionist]

Such boot camps (the 1- or 2-week -long WIA variety that I've seen here in Illinois) are Monday thru Friday, 9am - 3pm, in a local junior college campus classroom.

Hardly a resort environment.


Yep.

Look at it this way.

You're already stuck paying X to prop-up each displaced worker.

Why not pay 1/4 of X, to train the worker, and save the 3/4 X?


You and I must deal with the world of "what is", and not "what we want it to be", yes?

The world that you and I live in, has a Safety Net, a Welfare System.

Everything that we do or say here, in connection with Job Training or Retraining, must take into account that Real World; not whether you or I object to the existence of, or the depth of, the Safety Net.

That having been said...


Disagree.

The end (getting a displaced worker off welfare and back on a paying basis again, and thereby saving endless outlays for more hand-outs) is entirely justified by the means (using a small fraction of what we would otherwise pay-out in handouts, for training).


I propose that you (and I) shell out a fraction of what we would otherwise shell out, to retrain that displaced worker, and to get him (or her) to stop taking Welfare Handouts, rather than continue to shovel money at him (or her) as welfare benefits, with no end in sight.

If enough people think like me, in this respect, that is what we will do.

If enough people think like you, in this respect, we will not do this.

It's all part of the fun of representative democracy.


Better that an American be trained to take my job at an entry level salary, rather than giving it to a foreigner who will take my job at an entry level salary, and leave us with a hungry American mouth to feed on the dole, to boot.


The boot camp (if offered by a particular county) only gets them ready to go back for vocational training... the training itself comes after they've successfully completed the boot camp... and after the County has sent a Tuition Voucher to the community college or private trade school that will do the actual professional-caliber training.

For those in a position to take-out a loan... no problem... that's exactly what they should do.

For those in a sufficiently wretched position where they cannot take out a loan, well, that's what programs like WIA are there for.


For those who could afford it, or who were in a position to take out a loan... quite probably.

For those who could not afford it, or who were not in a position to take out a loan... not so much.

So basically I'm hearing that I should be punished by my government through h1b immigration, because that's the way it is. I should be punished through wage redistribution, because that's the way it is. And I should be punished by being forced to pay to train my replacements both here and abroad. Abroad through government incentives using my money to ship my job overseas and here through government incentives using my money to train unskilled workers to flood the same job market my government is working to inshore and off-shore.

Are you sure there's not some other way you can come up with to spend my money for the benefit of all but my family? Why stop here? Why not take all of my money and assets and spread it around as you see fit? I'm sure you can justify all sorts of good programs that I should be forced to buy. Me and others like me worked our asses off our whole lives, only to be screwed over by our government every which way from sunday. I mean I understand that you might benefit from this and that I can also get on the gravy train of the people working to reset American salaries of technical workers to minimum wage but, damn dude... really? My income can only be spread around so much before I'll just say to hell with this and sit back and collect just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

FYI ends justify the means.. yeah you really are saying the immoral act of enslaving me and my family through wage garnishments is justified by using it to train workers to replace me or at least enter the market increasing supply of available labor.

I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

I read these postings wondering EXACTLY what these skills are, besides learning a new programming language (Gee, that should take a whole three days), for which millions of Americans are being displaced.

Let's face reality, these Indian H1-Bs are not exactly REALLY scientists; most of them are practically low IQ morons.

They are being imported for their willingness to work for low wages and lousy working conditions (often illegal), not for science or skills.

 

[Indeependent]

So basically I'm hearing that I should be punished by my government through h1b immigration, because that's the way it is. I should be punished through wage redistribution, because that's the way it is. And I should be punished by being forced to pay to train my replacements both here and abroad. Abroad through government incentives using my money to ship my job overseas and here through government incentives using my money to train unskilled workers to flood the same job market my government is working to inshore and off-shore.

Are you sure there's not some other way you can come up with to spend my money for the benefit of all but my family? Why stop here? Why not take all of my money and assets and spread it around as you see fit? I'm sure you can justify all sorts of good programs that I should be forced to buy. Me and others like me worked our asses off our whole lives, only to be screwed over by our government every which way from sunday. I mean I understand that you might benefit from this and that I can also get on the gravy train of the people working to reset American salaries of technical workers to minimum wage but, damn dude... really? My income can only be spread around so much before I'll just say to hell with this and sit back and collect just like all the rest of the welfare proud.

FYI ends justify the means.. yeah you really are saying the immoral act of enslaving me and my family through wage garnishments is justified by using it to train workers to replace me or at least enter the market increasing supply of available labor.

I just wish you marxist socialist types had the guts to try and take my money from my wallet instead of hiding behind government guns. But I do appreciate your calmness in cheerleading for the extreme left.

I read these postings wondering EXACTLY what these skills are, besides learning a new programming language (Gee, that should take a whole three days), for which millions of Americans are being displaced.

Let's face reality, these Indian H1-Bs are not exactly REALLY scientists; most of them are practically low IQ morons.

They are being imported for their willingness to work for low wages and lousy working conditions (often illegal), not for science or skills.

I think RKMBrown is currently going through the "Whew! Thank God I have a job" phase now.

 

[protectionist]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

UTTER NONSENSE!! And directed only to those naive enough to fall for the SCAM that we need to retrain Americans, because we don't already have plenty of them on hand to do skilled work. This is the big SCAM JOB that greedy employers push. They PRETEND that there is a labor shortage of skilled workers (a myth obliterated repeatedly by my links in this thread).

There is NOTHING to "wait" for. The workers are here, fully skilled, and ready to work. Only problem is the employers (with the help of the federal govt) have settled into a habit of getting low-wage workers from overseas to keep their costs down.

When there's a labor shortage, wages are up. But they're not. They're down. All the way to the level that the foreigners will work for + cheaper, inferior working conditions, like they're used to in India, China, Mexico, etc.

 

[Indeependent]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

UTTER NONSENSE!! And directed only to those naive enough to fall for the SCAM that we need to retrain Americans, because we don't already have plenty of them on hand to do skilled work. This is the big SCAM JOB that greedy employers push. They PRETEND that there is a labor shortage of skilled workers (a myth obliterated repeatedly by my links in this thread).

There is NOTHING to "wait" for. The workers are here, fully skilled, and ready to work. Only problem is the employers (with the help of the federal govt) have settled into a habit of getting low-wage workers from overseas to keep their costs down.

When there's a labor shortage, wages are up. But they're not. They're down. All the way to the level that the foreigners will work for + cheaper, inferior working conditions, like they're used to in India, China, Mexico, etc.

Nah!
Suddenly every American Accountant, Attorney and Engineer woke up one morning and EVERYTHING was different!
Why, we don't even have Americans who can pump coffee, drive a bus or sweep a floor.
Only the business owners and CEO Lobbyists have the skills required for the 45th century!

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

Yes paths to citizenship are better than temporary employment meant to displace American labor.

When I said I did not know any unemployed engineers I meant unemployed in the larger sense. To elaborate further: I know great Engineers who are now selling houses, filing patents, teaching as a professor, making videos for weddings, practicing law, practicing as a physician, managing people, semi-retired (early retirement), living as an ex-Patriot in another country, .... I would estimate well over half of the best of the best of my Engineer friends are no longer employed as Engineers in a full time engineering job. They have been effectively chased off to other more profitable and/or stable careers.

Interesting. No one ever got rich by trading time for money, so I can understand why people would seek greener pastures. I can understand how operating a CAD tool or pressing a compile button for someone else's profit gets old after about thirty years of age. I don't think someone who has moved into management or marketing within their same industry has left engineering, nor do I think anyone from engineering who gets bit by the entrepreneurial bug actually leaves engineering. But I digress.

So in your experience there is a lack of demand for STEM graduates in this country. Okay. Could there be some over-aggregation whereby apples are compared to oranges, as opposed to accusing anyone of lying, that could explain a very different testimonial from a different person?

 

[Zombie_Pundit]

So, have we figured out yet, that it is better in the long run (after factoring-in safety net support costs, etc.) and in the best interests of the country, to train or re-train an American to do a high-demand job, rather than admitting an outsider into our midst, to do the same thing?

Improving education is key, but is a generational task. Very few 40 year-old unskilled workers are going to be able to "retrain" for work in a high-tech field. Can't hurt to try, but we can't afford to wait a generation or so to fill all the jobs in need of qualified workers right now. Start with the kids in school now, and adapt to the changing needs of a modern economy.

The intention is noble, but difficult to implement across a nation of over 300 million. Completely rebuilding the existing educational infrastructure will require generations of work.

There are certain, forgive the term, "low hanging fruit" we can pick and have an immediate impact. One thing we can do is to remove the stigma of academic success from poverty stricken communities. I am not saying everyone in a poverty stricken community looks down their noses at academic success. I am saying that popular media presents underprivileged youth with very few positive role models.

What I am proposing is that we make science cool again. Let's restart the space program. Let's get people involved. Have you ever heard Neil deGrasse Tyson speak on this subject? We could embolden a small army of underprivileged youth to reach toward science; and within science are found upward ladders of social mobility. Those ladders exist right now, and will multiply if we as a society invest in a new space program. This would require the progressive side of politics to abandon any of the traditional complaints about NASA funding. Songs like "****** on the Moon" don't help. I'm not trying to pick a fight over this. I'm just recounting history.
Moondoggle: The Forgotten Opposition to the Apollo Program - Alexis C. Madrigal - The Atlantic
Last time, our space program was a very nationalistic enterprise, and that fact led to more Progressive opposition. I think the space program should remain a nationalistic enterprise, except this time we include all Americans in our nationalistic enterprise.

Perhaps what I am proposing is not "low hanging fruit" at all, but it should be.

 

[Unkotare]

Trouble with that is, if you offer a 'path to citizenship' for some, you're gonna get stuck offering a 'path to citizenship' for all Illegals

Why? I don't want to offer such a pathway to any illegal aliens.

 

[Unkotare]

Shit happens, as the generations pass; some members of each generation make it through school, and end-up doing well. Others don't. The second and third and fourth generation descendants of any immigrants at-issue here will be no different in that respect; a mixed bag.

People who come from a family tradition of valuing education, hard work, and family itself are much more likely to succeed.

People who come from a background of expecting to make a good living based on low-skill labor are less so, even when they possess some of the positive attributes above.

People who come from a 'tradition' of generational welfare, well... you know.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Trouble with that is, if you offer a 'path to citizenship' for some, you're gonna get stuck offering a 'path to citizenship' for all Illegals

Why? I don't want to offer such a pathway to any illegal aliens.

I'm sure that you don't shit-boy but the capitalists here aren't concerned by your opinion. They know the economics of the situation so why don't you?