I'm tired of anemic guitar amps!

This thread is awesome. The difference between just listening to music (which is fine and what most people do) and having the curiosity and wanting to follow even one note from the beginning source, through the various components and circuits, being shaped to a desired quality and then delivered through the speakers.

I imagine you guys are like me, in this way. . . I have stopped in many a public places for groceries, gas, etc. and at many of them, there is a (usually) am/fm radio tuned half assed between stations playing (indescribably distorted bullshit) behind the counter, in the kitchen area or worse, through a PA system throughout the place. It is ******* maddening to me. I would so much rather hear NOTHING.

Please tell me I'm not alone in this insanity!
 
Color me crazy, but my first thought if I were Fender would be to put a 2-3 position input switch on the amp, one input for Fender, and the other position for "other" or what best range or ranges rebalanced the reverb circuit to work best with the most off-brand guitars.
Fender's 6G15 standalone reverb has both a dwell control and a tone control.


The reason they don't put these on a Twin is probably "too many knobs". You don't really need the dwell on a Twin because the preamp doesn't vary, but the tone control might be useful.

With the Fender stack you only get control over the tone before the signal enters the reverb. So your reverb tone kinda mirrors your original tone, if it's bright you'll get bright, and if it's dark you'll get dark. But an excellent sound is a bright preamp with a dark reverb.
 
This thread is awesome. The difference between just listening to music (which is fine and what most people do) and having the curiosity and wanting to follow even one note from the beginning source, through the various components and circuits, being shaped to a desired quality and then delivered through the speakers.

I imagine you guys are like me, in this way. . . I have stopped in many a public places for groceries, gas, etc. and at many of them, there is a (usually) am/fm radio tuned half assed between stations playing (indescribably distorted bullshit) behind the counter, in the kitchen area or worse, through a PA system throughout the place. It is ******* maddening to me. I would so much rather hear NOTHING.

Please tell me I'm not alone in this insanity!
Things could be worse. You could be on the bus listening to how much the transit authority values your safety and security. :p
 
Hey you tube guys, what should I do with these? LoL. Clearing out garage and found these old parts. Previous employer had tossed them. Thousands of different components. I think I have shit the military is looking for.
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Hey you tube guys, what should I do with these? LoL. Clearing out garage and found these old parts. Previous employer had tossed them. Thousands of different components. I think I have shit the military is looking for.
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Sell them on eBay! The people who make pedals (and mic preamps) would probably love cheap regulators.
 
Sell them on eBay! The people who make pedals (and mic preamps) would probably love cheap regulators.
I really don't know what any of the components are. I see several bags of electrolytic caps, chip components, etc. I'm hoping for some regulators, Darlington pairs, op amps, timers, etc. Things that would really appeal to hobbyists and production guys alike.
 
So I managed to wire up most of the output section between clients lol. I almost forgot about old school soldering, it's been so long. It's a labor of love, you gotta cram lotsa wires into those little terminal strips, and you end up with loose strands and little bits of solder all over the chassis. :p

Gotta work this week, the stimulus checks must have arrived, suddenly there's a bunch of starving artists beating down my door. But I'm getting it done. Waiting for some #6 hardware to arrive in the mail to mount the cap cans, after that I'll post some more pics. As planned, the DC stuff comes first, for measuring and tweaking voltages. So no coupling caps yet. You can only see the "underneath layer". (One would think 23x10 is a big roomy chassis, but no, things are getting tight already).

As this build proceeds, we can talk about the sections. The output tubes are self explanatory, not much going on there. I use 5.6k grid stoppers on the KT-88's like Marshall does, and 250 ohm screen resistors in series with the ultralinear taps from the output transformer, those are important to prevent current rushes when you push the amp into overdrive at full volume. I also prefer Marshall's bias circuit to Fender's, because if the bias pot gets dirty or the wiper lifts you want full bias on the tubes, otherwise they red plate and you probably lose your OT too.

As already discussed I'm using a 12AU7 driver stage like the Marshall Major. The interesting thing here is Marshall uses a 1.5k cathode resistor, which is about double what it should be, and it turns out to be a sensitive adjustment.


We want the driver's output voltage to swing about 100 volts from the midline in either direction, which means ideally we'd like the 12AU7's plate voltage to be sitting around 200 volts (say, between 200 and 220). You can assess the component values and see what the load line looks like by using the AmpBooks vacuum tube calculator:


If you plug in 450 volts and a 47k plate resistor and push the green button, it tells you the baseline cathode resistor is 1.5k. But that only for one section, if you're sharing the resistor between two sections you get double the current which means you want half the value. If you recalculate with 5 mA plate current and -10 V grid bias your plate voltage goes to 205 but your cathode resistor becomes 2k, and half of that by sharing is 1k. So Marshall's value is too high, it looks like it should be between 750 ohms and 1k. We could try 820 ohms, that's a standard commonly available off the shelf value. (Sharing cathode resistors is why you find 820 ohms in the Twin Reverb, that's the closest off the shelf value to "half of 1.5k").

So after setting the supply voltages and biasing the power tubes, that's the next thing we're going to look at. It's important that the driver stage be working correctly. We don't want any distortion here, least of all blocking distortion, and it has to handle a clean bass guitar sound as well as a dirty lead guitar sound at full volume. This stage has a gain of around 10, so to test it we run a 5 volt sine wave through it and make sure it doesn't clip on either side. Total current draw through this stage is 2 x 5 mA give or take.

This is an inverting stage that sits between the PI and the output tubes, so that means we have to invert the negative feedback signal that feeds the PI from the output transformer. The easiest way to do this is simply switch the coupling caps between the PI and the driver.

Also since the gain from PI to OT is so high in this circuit, we'll have to adjust the value of the NFB resistor. You can see how this works by playing with the AmpBooks negative feedback calculator.


You can enter the following values, and push "recalculate" after each entry.

LTP voltage gain = 60 (6 for the PI times 10 for the driver)

RMS power output = 100 watts

Transformer feedback tap = 16 ohms (that's the only thing 16 ohm taps are good for, no one uses 16 ohm speakers anymore)

Power amp input headroom = 50 volts

This gives us a feedback resistor of about 315k, so 330k is probably the closest off the shelf value. This is for a nominal 50% reduction in gain through the output stages, which is supposed to (in theory) give you pretty good linearity.

We can verify this as follows: begin by using a 1 meg pot in place of the feedback resistor. Begin with the pot all the way to the right, and a sine wave input of 1.6 volts which will push the output stage into overdrive. (Do this with the dummy load connected to the 8 ohm output, it'll be handling a full 100 watts). Now back off on the NFB pot until the output signal barely stops clipping. This is about 50% negative feedback in theory (since full power is achieved with a .8 volt input in the absence of feedback). Now turn the amp off and disconnect the feedback circuit and read the resistance value of the pot with a meter. If theory is correct it should be in the neighborhood of 315k. This is the value you want for your feedback resistor. With this value you should get good performance from the presence control.

Okay? We can talk about the PI in more detail tomorrow, it's getting late and I have to be in the studio at 5am in the morning. (A chick singer wanted an early morning slot, go figure). We want the PI cathode voltage not to exceed 90 volts, which is a bit of a discussion relative to a long tailed pair. (The Twin Reverb exceeds spec by 20% or so, which is why the PI is usually the first tube to go).
 
We want the driver's output voltage to swing about 100 volts from the midline in either direction, which means ideally we'd like the 12AU7's plate voltage to be sitting around 200 volts (say, between 200 and 220). You can assess the component values and see what the load line looks like by using the AmpBooks vacuum tube calculator:

Just curious Scruff--- in designing an amp (or any electronic circuit from the ground up), instead of these "calculators" to aid you in design, have you ever tried using a Spice Engine?

I use one from EWB Electronic Workbench. It allows you to completely build your circuit within the computer first, then test it as needed with a battery of virtual test equipment. In fact, my version even has a program that figures out the best board placement of components then draws the layers and traces and does all the preliminary work for producing the boards in CAD as a finished product.
 
Just curious Scruff--- in designing an amp (or any electronic circuit from the ground up), instead of these "calculators" to aid you in design, have you ever tried using a Spice Engine?

I use one from EWB Electronic Workbench. It allows you to completely build your circuit within the computer first, then test it as needed with a battery of virtual test equipment. In fact, my version even has a program that figures out the best board placement of components then draws the layers and traces and does all the preliminary work for producing the boards in CAD as a finished product.
Hi Toob, yes I've tried Spice, it's great for mic preamps and single stages. IMO and IME a tube amp is a bit subjective, beginning with the concept that tubes vary. Solid state specs are usually +/- 5% or even less, whereas tubes are +/- 25% or maybe even more. For example you can think of an unmatched pair of 6L6's, I've gotten quads where 3 of the tubes were 32 mils and the fourth one was 11. Tube fab is hard, if you breathe the wrong way the tube gets weird.

So I've learned over the years that when you put together a multi-stage tube device, if you really want it to work properly, you have to do it by hand. There are certainly many non-critical applications, but my guitar amp isn't one of them. It needs to sound like it's supposed to. I'm not going to be a fanatic like Dumble and tweak every resistor, but there are certain critical ones that I'll measure and make sure the tubes are happy.

For instance - speaking of PI's - the load resistors on a long tailed pair are deliberately mismatched, Fender uses 82k and 100k which is almost a 20% difference. They use a 15k tail resistor (10k plus the presence pot) to mitigate the balance issue "somewhat", but the cost of that is they have their DC cathode voltage at 110 volts which is way over spec (by like 20%). Spice won't read the RCA notes for a 12ax7, it tells you right in the datasheet "do not exceed 100 volts". (Here's the datasheet, see note b).


The RCA black plate 12ax7 happens to be an especially robust tube, but the modern ones like JJ come in at only 90 volts. (Their 1-page datasheet says 180 but that's AC, the DC value is half of that). "Most" of the 12a*7 tubes are 90 volts cathode-to-heater, including all your favorite brands like Amperex, GE, and so on. Spice doesn't know about stuff like this.

So now, my particular PI uses a 12au7 because I need lower gain. So, I looked at the gain first. In a long tailed pair configuration, you can use 39k and 47k to account for the slight gain imbalance in the circuit, but then you "must" use 820 ohms for the cathode and 15k for the tail. If you do that, you get an exactly balanced gain of 6.76 per section. However if you deviate even slightly, your balance will be destroyed. With a 12k tail you get about a 10% imbalance, with a 1k cathode you get a 10% imbalance, if you use Vox's 1.5k cathode you get more than 20% imbalance.

And, these particular components values will give you "exactly" 90 volts on the cathode with a 450 volt supply.

All this is theoretical though, so when I plug in the tube, I'm going to check. If I see 91 volts on the cathode i'm not concerned, but if I see 110 I start getting concerned. Then I run a sine wave through the circuit to see if it stays balanced at full volume. The two halves of a 12a*7 are almost never perfectly matched, you can buy them tested that way but it's expensive and who knows how long they'll stay that way. But if you start "close" to the optimal your chances for a long happy life are much better. So I'm going to try to start out "close" to the theoretical optimal, I'll use 1% resistors and test them with a meter to within a tenth of that. This way if I see 110 volts on the cathode or my sine wave has a notch in it I'll know to try a different tube.

If you take the time and go through the trouble of manual testing, it often makes the difference between a "meh" ordinary run of the mill amp, and "hey that sounds great, can I buy it from you?" I want the great sound. You'll hear people say "you won't be able to hear the difference when you crank the gain". Which is bullshit - that's exactly when you WILL hear the difference.

So yeah - nothing against Spice, for sure. It's a great simulator. Works just as good as the amp calculators, maybe even better. It's especially great for solid state designs, IMO. Often it'll show you where the problem is, when you run into unexplainable weirdness, which is something an amp calculator probably can't do.

I'm just an old dog set in my old ways, I guess. Guitar amp circuits are not "new", right? We know what works and what sounds good, we've had 80 years of experience with them. (They've been around longer than I have lol). There are a few neat little tricks I can bring to the table, from years of manual testing - simple things like using a 100k midrange pot in the tone stack instead of the standard 10k. If you're a fretless bass player you'll love me forever for telling you that, and it works for high gain guitar too, with judicious selection of the rest of the tone stack components. You can play around with the tone stack calculators to see what it really does, but even if you see the graphs it would be hard to make the connection with the audible result until you build an amp this way.

Anyway, my quote for today is "wiring up the ground plane is a special treat". I got the hardware, I'll borrow the Hakko from the studio tomorrow and post some pics. Chuz got mad at me for using orange wire, so all black for the grounds from now on. :p
 
I'm going to build an amp. And post the whole thing on YouTube. Show the world how it's done.

My ear has had it with anemic amps. I like thump, I like an authoritative sound. I like the power tubes to break up at full volume, none of that saggy blues stuff.

My other requirement is it has to be bulletproof. It has to be able to fall out the back of a truck and survive. So no PC boards, all old school point to point wiring. The worst thing that happens is a tube blows and then you replace it and you're done.

If you're into guitar amps, check out the schematic of this 200 watt Marshall. Notice the 12AU7 driver, in front of the power tubes. That's there because the KT-88's require 50 V rms to reach full power. They sound great when they do, they're thumpy and they have great dynamics, but they need some beef backing them up.


So I'm going to have a 400 VA toroid that can supply almost an amp at 560 volts (the tubes draw 640 mils at full power), but it weighs less than half as much as a big metal power transformer.

And I'm going to make it a dial-an-amp, so you can get any sound you want just by flipping a few switches. If you want a Fender sound with reverb and the tone stack up front you can get that, and if you want a Marshall sound with the tone stack in back you can get that too. And anything in between, and above and beyond.

By using a 12AU7 as a phase inverter, ahead of the driver, I get a combined gain of about 60 for the power amp, which is just about perfect, that means about 0.8 volts will drive it to full power. With a long tailed pair, it'll have the same sparkle as a Marshall Major about halfway up, and then it'll get really aggressive when it's cranked.

I want to blow some windows out this year. It's one of my New Year's resolutions. :p
200 watts? Marshall Major territory.
I prefer to crank lower wattage amps these days.
15 watt Dumble mod that he did for me, personally, is my go to.
67 Derluxe Reverb or 57 tweed champ.
And a fine tonebender of some sort for my inner Black Sabbath.
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This thread inspires me to share the same on a (Strat) guitar build. Does anyone here have experience on that?
I've made a bunch of partscasters over the years. My main guitar these days is a Tokai TST56 neck, refretted with larger frets, a featherweight body from an old Aria, and a set of Zexcoil pickups.

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I've made a bunch of partscasters over the years. My main guitar these days is a Tokai TST56 neck, refretted with larger frets, a featherweight body from an old Aria, and a set of Zexcoil pickups.
I'll have to google all of that. lol

None familiar.
 
I'll have to google all of that. lol

None familiar.
Tokai TST56 guitars have the best recreation of a 57 Fender V profile neck, hands down. If you like that style of neck, get one. The Zexcoils were a pleasant find. Bought a strat off some wealthy guy and parted it out. Kept those. Fantastic for authentic tones without the noise.
 
I like how my basses sound now. And the only time I use any type of preamp is at my church as we go directly to the board. There I use a GK Flex for that purpose.
My bass pedal board. The sansamp bass driver will make any shitty bass/amp combo sound like a boutique rig.

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Hi Toob, yes I've tried Spice, it's great for mic preamps and single stages. IMO and IME a tube amp is a bit subjective, beginning with the concept that tubes vary. Solid state specs are usually +/- 5% or even less, whereas tubes are +/- 25% or maybe even more.

Well, what you are describing is the fun of analog, especially tube circuits. And not everything is tube. There is a lot of call out there for solid state, bipolar or mosFET amps, among countless other things. And tube parameters can be varied. But if you are trying to eyeball a new circuit design, breaking it down into individual stages, just trying to ballpark it, a good Spice Engine can save a lot of time and work.

EWB is just the spice engine I bought many years ago for my own personal use. It will get you close enough that you can tell if you are heading in the right direction, then build it on a breadboard to test the design and tweak it as needed.
 
15th post
200 watts? Marshall Major territory.
I prefer to crank lower wattage amps these days.
15 watt Dumble mod that he did for me, personally, is my go to.
67 Derluxe Reverb or 57 tweed champ.
And a fine tonebender of some sort for my inner Black Sabbath.
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"Lead 20" is a contradiction in terms.

Kidding! :p

Nice collection.

I'll post a pic of my collection at some point. I only have one small amp, a 3-watter I use for recording.

I use a Laney Klipp for authentic Black Sabbath. It hasn't seen much use lately, not since Covid which kinda killed the live music scene around town.

Mostly I play bass, 5 and 6 string fretted and fretless. Getting a new one next week, Hungarian made fretless. Gonna change out the flatwounds and go full Jaco.
 
Recording trick:

Plug an 8 ohm speaker directly into the reverb send of any Fender amp.

Put a '57 in front of it. Pedalize as needed. You're good to go.
 
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