I'm a thiest fighting what so far has been a losing battle against determinism.

[Gregory A]

My word skills are not all that good and my logic is even worse. But that said I've spent a fair bit of time going over the issue of determinism, and would like to think that there are people here who have the answers regardless of what it is they point to.

Otherwise, I'm an outsider from the other side of the world hoping to find others who will join in the battle against this demon that's if it can be beaten.

 

[Ridgerunner]

 

[jackflash]

Welcome aboard! USMB has quite a crew that cover a LOT of topics. Our moderators are best of class meaning you will not get flagged down if you just use common sense. Treat your fellow board members as you would want to be treated yourself & you will enjoy this board as it truly is a one of a kind board(best in class). Don't be afraid to dabble in various forums on USMB for as I said USMB has quite a crew. You will eventually find a forum that you will associate with the most. We'll meet again somewhere in the forums!

 

[BULLDOG]

My word skills are not all that good and my logic is even worse. But that said I've spent a fair bit of time going over the issue of determinism, and would like to think that there are people here who have the answers regardless of what it is they point to.

Otherwise, I'm an outsider from the other side of the world hoping to find others who will join in the battle against this demon that's if it can be beaten.

Do you think you have free will?

 

[Gregory A]

Do you think you have free will?

Lots of things tell me I don't have free-will whereas a few tell me that I do. So this is the problem I'm here to try and solve. It might be that an example of what looks to be determinism in action can be challenged?

 

[Gregory A]

Lots of things tell me I don't have free-will whereas a few tell me that I do. So this is the problem I'm here to try and solve. It might be that an example of what looks to be determinism in action can be challenged?

Do you think you have free will?

I'm a theist who uses a clinical approach so my reply may appear a little bit at odds with my position if that helps. We look at our lives and need to accept that so much of what we are is due to things we had no say in. Where we were born and grew up, our nationality, has shaped who we are for example. We had no say in this, but still, maybe we can put those things down to chance rather than to anything in any way predetermined.

 

[frigidweirdo]

My word skills are not all that good and my logic is even worse. But that said I've spent a fair bit of time going over the issue of determinism, and would like to think that there are people here who have the answers regardless of what it is they point to.

Otherwise, I'm an outsider from the other side of the world hoping to find others who will join in the battle against this demon that's if it can be beaten.

I've been thinking about determinism, or something similar anyway, for a while.

Mostly I've got to the point where if you have an explosion, everything is predetermined to happen as soon as the explosion. The same for the Big Bang (assuming it happened).

So, as soon as the Big Bang happened, everything was predetermined to happen because each action led to another action which led to another action. There are rules, and the rules are always obeyed, so nothing else could have happened.

 

[Penelope]

I'm an atheist and I believe in determinism.

 

[Grumblenuts]

We look at our lives and need to accept that so much of what we are is due to things we had no say in. Where we were born and grew up, our nationality, has shaped who we are for example. We had no say in this, but still, maybe we can put those things down to chance rather than to anything in any way predetermined.

Well said, but saying "maybe we can put those things down to chance" creates a false dilemma. Turns out precious little could be either pure chance or completely predestined. If pure chance ruled we'd be born equally distributed around the globe, including the oceans and poles. If it were totally predetermined, the purpose for making it turn out just so would be bleeding evident and there would logically be no atheism.

 

[Gregory A]

I've been thinking about determinism, or something similar anyway, for a while.

Mostly I've got to the point where if you have an explosion, everything is predetermined to happen as soon as the explosion. The same for the Big Bang (assuming it happened).

So, as soon as the Big Bang happened, everything was predetermined to happen because each action led to another action which led to another action. There are rules, and the rules are always obeyed, so nothing else could have happened.

That's exactly right. It does all seems to fit together everything in sequence. Things not looking good for free will at all. And this would also mean that nothing anyone could do to challenge the solid nature of a deterministic outcome would have any chance of success. That is all physical changes we would make would be those that were determined to happen anyhow. There could be no exceptions for whatever reason apparently. But then, and it's the only hope I see is that 'logic', itself something that must be considered intangible, could be used to re/shape the world, and consequently (because it isn't used all that much) would then need to reveal its influence as to a relatively small degree only.

 

[frigidweirdo]

That's exactly right. It does all seems to fit together everything in sequence. Things not looking good for free will at all. And this would also mean that nothing anyone could do to challenge the solid nature of a deterministic outcome would have any chance of success. That is all physical changes we would make would be those that were determined to happen anyhow. There could be no exceptions for whatever reason apparently. But then, and it's the only hope I see is that 'logic', itself something that must be considered intangible, could be used to re/shape the world, and consequently (because it isn't used all that much) would then need to reveal its influence as to a relatively small degree only.

The problem is that for many humans, predetermination destroys their brain and then they kill themselves, they can't cope with it, so we've developed a sense that there's something else, and we have choice and all that, survival technique.

 

[Grumblenuts]

It does all seems to fit together everything in sequence. Things not looking good for free will at all. And this would also mean that nothing anyone could do to challenge the solid nature of a deterministic outcome would have any chance of success.

I've already challenged it. You can free will it away by ignoring it or attempt making a predetermined response..

 

[iamwhatiseem]

What a colossal waste of time.
Just sayin

 

[Grumblenuts]

If pure chance ruled we'd be born equally distributed around the globe, including the oceans and poles.

Correction. If pure chance ruled we'd be born equally distributed, including the oceans, the poles, inside the Earth, and out in space.

eta: My apologies. I didn't realize this was in the "Introduce Yourself" section.
Welcome aboard

 

[Gregory A]

I'm an atheist and I believe in determinism.

Then it would need to be that it decides your atheism. And that can be shown. For example if you had an identical twin that was adopted out when you were both young, that child raised in the Bible Belt growing up Christian. And as much as you believe you could convert that sibling, your chances would be no more than them converting you to Christianity. What I'm saying is that the child who was selected for adoption could have been you and it was that decision that decided your atheism as much as you might have thought it was a rational decision on your part in the first place.

 

[RodISHI]

Welcome to USMB. Happy posting.

 

[Grumblenuts]

You should restart this discussion in the Philosophy section. That way theists and atheists can engage without bashing one another for being in the wrong area. This section is for introducing yourself. We're not supposed argue stuff with you here.

 

[Hang on Sloopy]

My word skills are not all that good and my logic is even worse. But that said I've spent a fair bit of time going over the issue of determinism, and would like to think that there are people here who have the answers regardless of what it is they point to.

Otherwise, I'm an outsider from the other side of the world hoping to find others who will join in the battle against this demon that's if it can be beaten.

Welcome Greg

If you are looking for the big answers to life here, you will be hugely disappointed and most likely leave a depressed train wreck

Have Fun!

 

[beautress]

My word skills are not all that good and my logic is even worse. But that said I've spent a fair bit of time going over the issue of determinism, and would like to think that there are people here who have the answers regardless of what it is they point to.

Otherwise, I'm an outsider from the other side of the world hoping to find others who will join in the battle against this demon that's if it can be beaten.

Welcome to USMB, Gregory A. Hope you enjoy the boards! We're just people, so fear not. :

 

[Gregory A]

Correction. If pure chance ruled we'd be born equally distributed, including the oceans, the poles, inside the Earth, and out in space.

eta: My apologies. I didn't realize this was in the "Introduce Yourself" section.
Welcome aboard

No problem. And thanks for the welcome. Moving to 'Philosophy' as you've suggested.