I'm a libertarian and don't believe conservatives should force their beliefs on other people

[FA_Q2]

Teaching children morality is not in the realm of schools - it is in the realm of parents.

Do you really trust the GOVERNMENT to teach your kids morality? Really?

Teaching children is not the realm of government, it is the realm of parents.

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

 

[Dragonlady]

And yet you don't give a shit about Homosexuals and the forcing their beliefs on everyone else.

No one is forcing straight Christians to marry homosexuals, or to become homosexuals. That would be the definition of forcing their beliefs on others. Telling people they cannot discriminate against homosexuals, if telling Christians to respect others beliefs.

Jesus himself told his followers to show kindness to sinners. These people are being asked to treat others as they would like to be treated. How nasty of us to force them to abide by Jesus instructions.

 

[JimBowie1958]

I don't believe liberal parents should be forced to make their children attend conservative public schools in red states.

How about those liberal schools?

And people wonder why blacks have a 50% failure rate to get to high school graduation if they made the 9th grade?

Well, this would assplain it to anyone.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

Horseshit.

Americans schools test at the bottom of modern industrialized nations for the last 7 years.



American high school students slip in global education rankings | Fox News

Overall, according to the U.S. Department of Education, American students' rankings in math have slipped from 24th to 29th compared to the last test in 2010. In science, they've gone from 19th to 22nd, and from 10th to 20th in reading.

 

[FA_Q2]

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

Horseshit.

Americans schools test at the bottom of modern industrialized nations for the last 7 years.



American high school students slip in global education rankings | Fox News

Overall, according to the U.S. Department of Education, American students' rankings in math have slipped from 24th to 29th compared to the last test in 2010. In science, they've gone from 19th to 22nd, and from 10th to 20th in reading.

And?

You are complaining that our schools test lower than other nations kids being taught in SCHOOLS.

That is not a good argument against schools teaching children - it is an argument that our particular schools have lost their edge. That is something that I don't think you are going to get a lot of resistance on - most people agree with that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

You are complaining that our schools test lower than other nations kids being taught in SCHOOLS.

That is not a good argument against schools teaching children - it is an argument that our particular schools have lost their edge. That is something that I don't think you are going to get a lot of resistance on - most people agree with that.

Who is arguing against teaching children in general?

No, I am stating the obvious; American public schools mostly suck and that is mostly because they are not allowed to maintain classroom order so the teacher can teach

 

[Dragonlady]

American schools suck because education has become so politicized in the US. Texas is ordering textbooks with a "conservative" slant on all topics. Children attend religious schools where they are taught Creationism and that science is bunk. Charter schools cherry pick the brightest students so they test higher. And they're being taught by people at the bottom of the pay scale - a practice which discourages people who want to make a decent living, from entering the teaching profession.

The US is one of the few first world nations which spends fewer dollars educating the children of the poor than the children of the rich. Schools in poor neighbourhoods have higher student/teacher ratios, fewer books, computers and other teaching aids.

The richest nation in the world doesn't give a rat's ass about education its children. How short-sighted is that?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

Community schools should reflect the needs of the community running and funding the school. i.e. the parents of the students involved. State run schools are based on the Prussian model and do not operate for the benefit of the student or the community, they operate for the benefit of the state. I am not suggesting universal home schooling, but I do suggest community schools that are sovereign from state and federal oversight.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I wish Republicans would stop being control freaks!

Well, that's not going to happen, that's what it is to be conservative.

 

[Contumacious]

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

Community schools should reflect the needs of the community running and funding the school. i.e. the parents of the students involved. State run schools are based on the Prussian model and do not operate for the benefit of the student or the community, they operate for the benefit of the state. I am not suggesting universal home schooling, but I do suggest community schools that are sovereign from state and federal oversight.

No gonna happen, wouldn't be prudent

From the welfare/warfare police state standpoint they own you.


.

 

[Uncensored2008]

No gonna happen, wouldn't be prudent

From the welfare/warfare police state standpoint they own you.


.

So few understand the Prussian Educational system our schools are based on.

{
Horace Mann, credited as the father of the American public school system, studied a wide variety of educational models before implementing the Prussian system designed by Fredrick the Great. King Frederick created a system that was engineered to teach obedience and solidify his control. Focusing on following directions, basic skills, and conformity, he sought to indoctrinate the nation from an early age. Isolating students in rows and teachers in individual classrooms fashioned a strict hierarchy—intentionally fostering fear and loneliness.

Mann chose the Prussian model, with its depersonalized learning and strict hierarchy of power, because it was the cheapest and easiest way to teach literacy on a large scale.

This system was perpetuated throughout the early twentieth century by social efficiency theorists who sought to industrialize the educational process. Led by educators such as Ellwood P. Cubberley, they used education as a tool for social engineering:

“Our schools are, in a sense, factories in which the raw products (children) are to be shaped and fashioned into products to meet the various demands of life.” (Cubberley, 1917)

Building upon the depersonalized uniformity and rigid hierarchy of the Prussian system, they constructed an industrial schooling model designed to produce millions of workers for Americaʼs factories.

Believing that most of America’s students were destined for a life of menial, industrial labor, these theorists created a multi-track educational system meant to sort students from an early age. While the best and brightest were carefully groomed for leadership positions, the majority was relegated to a monotonous education of rote learning and task completion.}

The Prussian-Industrial Model

 

[FA_Q2]

Sorry but no. In general, schools do just fine in teaching children. The VAST majority of children on the entire planet are taught at schools both government and private. There is noting wrong with a school teaching math, science and other subjects to children and adults. There is something majorly wrong when you start expecting them to teach morality.

Community schools should reflect the needs of the community running and funding the school. i.e. the parents of the students involved. State run schools are based on the Prussian model and do not operate for the benefit of the student or the community, they operate for the benefit of the state. I am not suggesting universal home schooling, but I do suggest community schools that are sovereign from state and federal oversight.

I cant argue against that.

I don't have an issue with the state having a school system but private schools have almost always been superior and the one thing that we need to improve our schools is freeing people from being locked into whatever school the state has decided you will be a part of.

 

[Dragonlady]

I don't have an issue with the state having a school system but private schools have almost always been superior and the one thing that we need to improve our schools is freeing people from being locked into whatever school the state has decided you will be a part of.

I strongly disagree. I think the reason why the US education system is falling further and further behind the rest of the first world in educating their children is the lack of a strong public school system. Charter schools, Christian schools which teach Creationism and that science is bunk, home schooling. Parents, for the most part, are grossly unqualified to determine what their children need to know for future job markets.

The purpose of education is to teach children how to process information and to think for themselves. It is also to provide them with the skills to succeed in our first world economy. Things like computer skills, reading, writing, math and science. Right wingers seem to want children to go to school and come out of it good little conservatives.

They have stripped out music and art programs, home economics, shop, and anything that might help prepare children for day to day life. Home economics used to teach girls (no boys allowed) home management skills, nutrition, meal planning, laundry, budgeting, etc. Shop classes taught boys how to build things around the house, how to change the oil on their car, and other useful mechanical skills. Daily gym classes gave us physical activity (something today's kids sorely need), and taught kids how to play at an assortment of sports.

But now schools are closing gyms, cancelling shop classes and home ec, which should have been expanded so that both sexes could participate in both courses, and few schools offer art and music because they don't teach job skills, even though art and music have been found to raise IQ levels, and improve math and reasoning skills, they're history. Too expensive.

As for home schooling, many of you have noted that home schooled kids do better on academic achievement tests than kids from public or private schools. Some of them do. But there are other kids who are home schooled because their parents are determined that their children become pro athletes, and some of those kids get no or very little education at all. If they dont succeed as athletes, they're screwed.

The US needs a strong, well-funded public education system, with national standards. Yes, some areas have different needs for their students, but few people stay in one place their whole lives. We are a very mobile culture. And we don't want people losing out in life because they grew up in a state which didn't consider math and science necessary in the region.

The current patchwork quilt, which disadvantages the children of the poor, is not working. Stop politicizing education, and trying to make sure your little darlings are molded into good little conservatives. Let them learn to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't have an issue with the state having a school system but private schools have almost always been superior and the one thing that we need to improve our schools is freeing people from being locked into whatever school the state has decided you will be a part of.

I strongly disagree. I think the reason why the US education system is falling further and further behind the rest of the first world in educating their children is the lack of a strong public school system. Charter schools, Christian schools which teach Creationism and that science is bunk, home schooling. Parents, for the most part, are grossly unqualified to determine what their children need to know for future job markets.

The purpose of education is to teach children how to process information and to think for themselves. It is also to provide them with the skills to succeed in our first world economy. Things like computer skills, reading, writing, math and science. Right wingers seem to want children to go to school and come out of it good little conservatives.

They have stripped out music and art programs, home economics, shop, and anything that might help prepare children for day to day life. Home economics used to teach girls (no boys allowed) home management skills, nutrition, meal planning, laundry, budgeting, etc. Shop classes taught boys how to build things around the house, how to change the oil on their car, and other useful mechanical skills. Daily gym classes gave us physical activity (something today's kids sorely need), and taught kids how to play at an assortment of sports.

But now schools are closing gyms, cancelling shop classes and home ec, which should have been expanded so that both sexes could participate in both courses, and few schools offer art and music because they don't teach job skills, even though art and music have been found to raise IQ levels, and improve math and reasoning skills, they're history. Too expensive.

As for home schooling, many of you have noted that home schooled kids do better on academic achievement tests than kids from public or private schools. Some of them do. But there are other kids who are home schooled because their parents are determined that their children become pro athletes, and some of those kids get no or very little education at all. If they dont succeed as athletes, they're screwed.

The US needs a strong, well-funded public education system, with national standards. Yes, some areas have different needs for their students, but few people stay in one place their whole lives. We are a very mobile culture. And we don't want people losing out in life because they grew up in a state which didn't consider math and science necessary in the region.

The current patchwork quilt, which disadvantages the children of the poor, is not working. Stop politicizing education, and trying to make sure your little darlings are molded into good little conservatives. Let them learn to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

So, can you provide legitimate citations that show per pupil spending in inflation adjusted dollars has declined since the 1970's?

Or does ALL available data show that spending has increased geometrically?

Since spending per pupil is vastly higher, then the question is, where is all the money going?

 

[FA_Q2]

I don't have an issue with the state having a school system but private schools have almost always been superior and the one thing that we need to improve our schools is freeing people from being locked into whatever school the state has decided you will be a part of.

I strongly disagree. I think the reason why the US education system is falling further and further behind the rest of the first world in educating their children is the lack of a strong public school system. Charter schools, Christian schools which teach Creationism and that science is bunk, home schooling. Parents, for the most part, are grossly unqualified to determine what their children need to know for future job markets.

The purpose of education is to teach children how to process information and to think for themselves. It is also to provide them with the skills to succeed in our first world economy. Things like computer skills, reading, writing, math and science. Right wingers seem to want children to go to school and come out of it good little conservatives.

They have stripped out music and art programs, home economics, shop, and anything that might help prepare children for day to day life. Home economics used to teach girls (no boys allowed) home management skills, nutrition, meal planning, laundry, budgeting, etc. Shop classes taught boys how to build things around the house, how to change the oil on their car, and other useful mechanical skills. Daily gym classes gave us physical activity (something today's kids sorely need), and taught kids how to play at an assortment of sports.

But now schools are closing gyms, cancelling shop classes and home ec, which should have been expanded so that both sexes could participate in both courses, and few schools offer art and music because they don't teach job skills, even though art and music have been found to raise IQ levels, and improve math and reasoning skills, they're history. Too expensive.

As for home schooling, many of you have noted that home schooled kids do better on academic achievement tests than kids from public or private schools. Some of them do. But there are other kids who are home schooled because their parents are determined that their children become pro athletes, and some of those kids get no or very little education at all. If they dont succeed as athletes, they're screwed.

The US needs a strong, well-funded public education system, with national standards. Yes, some areas have different needs for their students, but few people stay in one place their whole lives. We are a very mobile culture. And we don't want people losing out in life because they grew up in a state which didn't consider math and science necessary in the region.

The current patchwork quilt, which disadvantages the children of the poor, is not working. Stop politicizing education, and trying to make sure your little darlings are molded into good little conservatives. Let them learn to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

You disagree but what is that disagreement based on? The fact remains that private schools do vastly better than public ones. Home schooled children do better than public schooled children. Everything out performs public schools.

What you believe parents are or are not equipped to do is irrelevant. Parents NEED more control over where their children go to school. The reality is that the poor get locked into public schools that are garbage and will never get any better and that creates a cycle that is devastating.

 

[Contumacious]

I don't have an issue with the state having a school system but private schools have almost always been superior and the one thing that we need to improve our schools is freeing people from being locked into whatever school the state has decided you will be a part of.

I strongly disagree. I think the reason why the US education system is falling further and further behind the rest of the first world in educating their children is the lack of a strong public school system. Charter schools, Christian schools which teach Creationism and that science is bunk, home schooling. Parents, for the most part, are grossly unqualified to determine what their children need to know for future job markets.

The purpose of education is to teach children how to process information and to think for themselves. It is also to provide them with the skills to succeed in our first world economy. Things like computer skills, reading, writing, math and science. Right wingers seem to want children to go to school and come out of it good little conservatives.

They have stripped out music and art programs, home economics, shop, and anything that might help prepare children for day to day life. Home economics used to teach girls (no boys allowed) home management skills, nutrition, meal planning, laundry, budgeting, etc. Shop classes taught boys how to build things around the house, how to change the oil on their car, and other useful mechanical skills. Daily gym classes gave us physical activity (something today's kids sorely need), and taught kids how to play at an assortment of sports.

But now schools are closing gyms, cancelling shop classes and home ec, which should have been expanded so that both sexes could participate in both courses, and few schools offer art and music because they don't teach job skills, even though art and music have been found to raise IQ levels, and improve math and reasoning skills, they're history. Too expensive.

As for home schooling, many of you have noted that home schooled kids do better on academic achievement tests than kids from public or private schools. Some of them do. But there are other kids who are home schooled because their parents are determined that their children become pro athletes, and some of those kids get no or very little education at all. If they dont succeed as athletes, they're screwed.

The US needs a strong, well-funded public education system, with national standards. Yes, some areas have different needs for their students, but few people stay in one place their whole lives. We are a very mobile culture. And we don't want people losing out in life because they grew up in a state which didn't consider math and science necessary in the region.

The current patchwork quilt, which disadvantages the children of the poor, is not working. Stop politicizing education, and trying to make sure your little darlings are molded into good little conservatives. Let them learn to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

The purpose of "education" in this country is to:

1- help the National Education Association (NEA) , the largest labor union in the United States.
2- mold the minds of America's youth into patriotic , unthinking zombies so that they won't challenge the gargantuan welfare/warfare police state , see for example Comrade Starkiev's and skylar's posts

Every politically controlled educational system will inculcate the doctrine of state supremacy sooner or later. . . . Once that doctrine has been accepted, it becomes an almost superhuman task to break the stranglehold of the political power over the life of the citizen. It has had his body, property and mind in its clutches from infancy. An octopus would sooner release its prey.

A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state.

– Isabel Paterson, The God of the Machine (1943)

 

[Markle]

Ironically, Conservatives made a deal with the devil when they courted the Religious Right in the 80's and now the only way they can win is to pander to the evangelicals by attempting to legislate their brand of morality. I would love to have the option of voting for a party that held to true conservative ideals, but they won't get my vote as long as they're ruled by evangelicals.

Would you explain specifically how Conservatives made a deal with the devil and courted the Religious Right in the 80's?

Show us too how Republicans are ruled by evangelicals.

 

[Clementine]

For example corporal punishment.


I believe these red state public schools should either allow accommodations for parents who disapprove of corporal punishment or provide schools to those parents that are just as well funded but do not allow corporal punishment.

I am big on individual liberty.

Corporal punishment isn't practiced in the majority of schools. I do think we had less disrespectful youths when there was some kind of punishment for bad behavior. I don't like the way it's tolerated now. I see more outrage over spankings than over teen violence, such as playing the knockout game and injuring or even killing innocent people. Maybe they should have been spanked when they first start acting like thugs.

Freedom and liberty are seriously trampled in schools and colleges, thanks to liberals. It's parents and students who have the beliefs of liberal teachers forced on them.

We have many of our parental choices taken away by know-it-all libs. Parents would like to choose what their children eat instead of having Gestapos confiscate students packed lunches because they aren't approved by Michelle. Parents would like teachers to get back to teaching the basics instead of indoctrinating students by promoting liberalism. Parents would like schools that still teach cursive and algebra instead of Common Core crap that is designed to dumb everyone down to the lowest level. Parents would like schools to refrain from teaching their slanted views on religion. Islam is given praise while Christianity is vilified.

Corporal punishment was a hell of a lot better than drugging students who act up. Kids will get over spankings and probably change their behavior. Kids on drugs will suffer a lifetime and so will those who encounter them. Most mass shooters were on meds in the past. The way schools are run now, they are breeding future idiots and dangerous people instead of churning out productive citizens who know right from wrong.

 

[Contumacious]

Ironically, Conservatives made a deal with the devil when they courted the Religious Right in the 80's and now the only way they can win is to pander to the evangelicals by attempting to legislate their brand of morality. I would love to have the option of voting for a party that held to true conservative ideals, but they won't get my vote as long as they're ruled by evangelicals.

Would you explain specifically how Conservatives made a deal with the devil and courted the Religious Right in the 80's?

Show us too how Republicans are ruled by evangelicals.

Bwahahahhahahahahahaha

John Hagee is a controversial right-wing Christian leader and founder of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), a Christian Zionist organization known for its militarist stance on U.S. policy in the Middle East.

In 2006, Blumenthal reported on the apparent political clout of the then nascent group. “Over the past months, the White House has convened a series of off-the-record meetings about its policies in the Middle East with leaders of Christians United for Israel (CUFI), a newly formed political organization that tells its members that supporting Israel's expansionist policies is ‘a biblical imperative,’” Blumenthal said. “CUFI's Washington lobbyist, David Brog, told me that during the meetings, CUFI representatives pressed White House officials to adopt a more confrontational posture toward Iran, refuse aid to the Palestinians and give Israel a free hand as it ramped up its military conflict with Hezbollah.”[19]

 

[kaz]

For example corporal punishment.


I believe these red state public schools should either allow accommodations for parents who disapprove of corporal punishment or provide schools to those parents that are just as well funded but do not allow corporal punishment.

I am big on individual liberty.

No government school should be physically hitting a kid, for sure