If you oppose the Confederate flag you oppose the American flag too

[hangover]

If you oppose the Confederate flag you oppose the American flag too

This thread illustrates the kind of propaganda the cons try to perpetrate on the electorate. "If you're not for bigotry, then you're against America." And cons really expect this country to buy it. Thanks so much for exposing yourself.

 

[EatMorChikin]

If you oppose the Confederate flag you oppose the American flag too

This thread illustrates the kind of propaganda the cons try to perpetrate on the electorate. "If you're not for bigotry, then you're against America." And cons really expect this country to buy it. Thanks so much for exposing yourself.

Another one who failed American history. If you had shown up, you would know more about flags of the US.

 

[Boss]

What is totally inexplicable is why anyone with any human feeling would have any regret that a system as odious as that exemplified by the antebellum South was eliminated from a free nation's existence.

Well I am truly sorry but I don't see where ANYONE who is defending the Confederate battle flag has made any sort of argument FOR slavery or any argument that we shouldn't have eliminated slavery as a nation.

The history is this... The North fought the South in the Civil War over MONEY! Not slavery, not human rights, not over racism, not the Constitution! Like almost EVERY war, it was over MONEY! Lincoln was asked, "why not let the Southern states go in peace?" His reply was, "who is going to pay for government?" He knew it would be economically disastrous for the US if the South were allowed to secede and that's his reason for fighting the war.

BUT... Like almost every war we've ever been involved in, the "reasoning" has to be couched in some moral "right" that we are fighting for in complete denial of the fact that we are actually fighting over money and financial interests. In the early stages of the Civil War, the Union was getting her ass kicked pretty good by the Rebels, and Lincoln HAD to come up with something to unite the public behind the war, or it was going to turn really ugly for him in a hurry. So he issues the Emancipation Proclamation and makes it about slavery.

The South was actually in the process of eliminating slavery. Slave markets had been eliminated. You couldn't go and buy slaves anywhere in the South. Technology was going to eventually replace slave labor and Southerners knew this. Still, they had invested a billion dollars in slaves as property because the US Congress and SCOTUS told them this was acceptable and legal for the previous 85 years.

 

[Boss]

If you oppose the Confederate flag you oppose the American flag too

This thread illustrates the kind of propaganda the cons try to perpetrate on the electorate. "If you're not for bigotry, then you're against America." And cons really expect this country to buy it. Thanks so much for exposing yourself.

I think it demonstrates how hard-headed liberals don't understand history and believe they can shape it to fit their agenda after the fact. YOU are the BIGOTS! You are the ones who bow up and demand the whole fucking nation march to YOUR drumbeat or be hooted down as racists and other deplorable things. We have to all march in lockstep and respect what YOU want us to or disrespect what YOU demand us to... or else, face your wrath. No one can talk to you, you're not reasonable, you have an agenda to push and you're going to keep pushing it.

 

[Boss]

"...all men are created equal..."

Yes they are... BUT-- According to SCOTUS rulings prior to the Civil War and Congressional or presidential policies before the Civil War, negro slaves were NOT MEN... they were PROPERTY!

That's the part you conveniently want to ignore and it's part of history. You wish to pretend that a different viewpoint was the official view of the US and it wasn't. I'm sorry about that... I wish that I could honestly say that the US had opposed and fought slavery all those years, but that's not true.

 

[there4eyeM]

The states that rebelled against the Perpetual Union did so out of consideration for money, yes. It was foreseen that humanitarian considerations would render slavery unconscionable.
Some link concerning slave markets being close is necessary, as an Internet search shows they were in activity until the rebellion started.
Economics and technology do make slavery impractical, to those cold enough to engage in it otherwise. Great countries had ended it before the tragic way the US did it.

 

[Faun]

What is totally inexplicable is why anyone with any human feeling would have any regret that a system as odious as that exemplified by the antebellum South was eliminated from a free nation's existence.

Well I am truly sorry but I don't see where ANYONE who is defending the Confederate battle flag has made any sort of argument FOR slavery or any argument that we shouldn't have eliminated slavery as a nation.

The history is this... The North fought the South in the Civil War over MONEY! Not slavery, not human rights, not over racism, not the Constitution! Like almost EVERY war, it was over MONEY! Lincoln was asked, "why not let the Southern states go in peace?" His reply was, "who is going to pay for government?" He knew it would be economically disastrous for the US if the South were allowed to secede and that's his reason for fighting the war.

BUT... Like almost every war we've ever been involved in, the "reasoning" has to be couched in some moral "right" that we are fighting for in complete denial of the fact that we are actually fighting over money and financial interests. In the early stages of the Civil War, the Union was getting her ass kicked pretty good by the Rebels, and Lincoln HAD to come up with something to unite the public behind the war, or it was going to turn really ugly for him in a hurry. So he issues the Emancipation Proclamation and makes it about slavery.

The South was actually in the process of eliminating slavery. Slave markets had been eliminated. You couldn't go and buy slaves anywhere in the South. Technology was going to eventually replace slave labor and Southerners knew this. Still, they had invested a billion dollars in slaves as property because the US Congress and SCOTUS told them this was acceptable and legal for the previous 85 years.

Here we go again .... prove Lincoln said that ......

 

[Faun]

"...all men are created equal..."

Yes they are... BUT-- According to SCOTUS rulings prior to the Civil War and Congressional or presidential policies before the Civil War, negro slaves were NOT MEN... they were PROPERTY!

That's the part you conveniently want to ignore and it's part of history. You wish to pretend that a different viewpoint was the official view of the US and it wasn't. I'm sorry about that... I wish that I could honestly say that the US had opposed and fought slavery all those years, but that's not true.

In the conservative south. In the Liberal north, slavery was illegal.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Let's face it. Southerners fought against Northern aggression and for their freedom. They were patriotic Americans sick of seeing their country going the wrong way. That's why people typically fly the Stars and Bars.
But we got over that and healed and the descendents of those Confederates went on to serve the American army and win our wars.
But those who want to censor, who want to denigrate the struggle of our Southern ancestors, who want to demonize others for holding opinions contrary to theirs are no better than jihhadis and communists, who want to ban anything contrary to their religion. They are the hater dupes of the public world.

Oh my god, find another cause. You're the dupe.

 

[Boss]

"...all men are created equal..."

Yes they are... BUT-- According to SCOTUS rulings prior to the Civil War and Congressional or presidential policies before the Civil War, negro slaves were NOT MEN... they were PROPERTY!

That's the part you conveniently want to ignore and it's part of history. You wish to pretend that a different viewpoint was the official view of the US and it wasn't. I'm sorry about that... I wish that I could honestly say that the US had opposed and fought slavery all those years, but that's not true.

In the conservative south. In the Liberal north, slavery was illegal.

There was no "conservative south" or "liberal north" fuckwit. This is part of your delusional meme and total ignorance of history.

 

[Boss]

Here we go again .... prove Lincoln said that ......

I don't need to prove anything to you, jackwagon. You're not proving anything you say/claim/lie about. You're just bowing up and making all sorts of allegations that can't be backed up or supported with ANY source of legitimate history, so fuck off!

I paraphrased Lincoln's reply to a Virginia politician in April 1861 when asked the question. The bottom line is, the United States would have had serious trouble supporting itself without Southern agriculture. Cotton was our #1 export, followed by tobacco and sugar cane. The #4 export was textiles produced with Southern cotton. So how the hell do you figure the US was going to support itself without Southern agriculture?

Again... Like almost EVERY war, the Civil War was about MONEY.

The states that rebelled against the Perpetual Union did so out of consideration for money, yes. It was foreseen that humanitarian considerations would render slavery unconscionable.

In a sense, they did... but it was about property, not money. Let's imagine something that people own as property now... say SUVs... Now, no moral comparison between an SUV and slave, let me make that clear... but as "property" legal to own in the US, upheld as "property" by the Supreme Court and assessed as a "property" asset... Slaves were no different in this philosophical context... Now, let's imagine some wacko environmentalists assume power in DC and threaten to confiscate all privately-owned SUVs in America. Would THAT be Constitutional? What if the Government decides you can't have computers? Can they come take your computer? Are you OK with that type government? What about if they outlawed owning cattle, whether beef or dairy... can't own cows anymore, you have to set them free.... what about all the people who have heavy investment in cattle? Fuck them, tough luck? They don't have a Constitutional right to property anymore?

Humanitarian concerns over slavery were just as present in the South as the North... who in the hell do you think operated the Underground Railroad? A lot of society, especially in the cities, were certainly moving toward abolition. Even slave owners were voluntarily freeing their slaves and moving away from the institution as a whole. It would have eventually gone away on it's own because it was headed that way everywhere.

This is why it is so frustrating to me that people like you want to cling to this notion that the South was fighting to keep slavery. I bet you don't even know why there is a West Virginia? (A slave state added to the Union in 1863) Or Delaware, another slave state of the Union who subsequently failed to ratify the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

 

[mgh80]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

 

[Unkotare]

What exactly are some of you idiots afraid of in recognizing slavery as the key issue in the Civil War? Why does it make you so insecure?

 

[Unkotare]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

The 'confederacy' was never a nation.

 

[mgh80]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

The 'confederacy' was never a nation.

The USA didn't recognize it as one, but I'm pretty sure supporters in the South considered themselves one.

 

[Unkotare]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

The 'confederacy' was never a nation.

The USA didn't recognize it as one...

No country on earth recognized it as one.

 

[mgh80]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

The 'confederacy' was never a nation.

The USA didn't recognize it as one...

No country on earth recognized it as one.

The people in the South still considered themselves to be one....otherwise why would they form their own government?

Even if it's not a country--the flag still represents group of people at the time who wanted to leave the USA, and that should be enough to not fly it on public property.

 

[Bush92]

Lincoln didn't invade Virginia to free the slaves, numskull. He said so himself. That means the war wasn't about slavery.

I never said Lincoln fought the war to free the slaves. He fought the war to save the United States from breaking apart.

The south fought the war to keep their slaves.

Wrong. They fought the war to defend their homes from Lincoln. Lincoln invaded the Confederate states, not the other way around.

Too bad for your hallucinations, history does not agree with your delusions. The south started the war when they attacked a federal fort.

I have proven over and over and over that Lincoln started the war. All you can do is stamp your foot and whine about it.

All you have proven is that you're mentally deranged enough that if you take a sentence and cut off the beginning and cut off the ending, you can tailor it to mean something other than what it actually means in toto.

And get this ... while you portray me as the one stamping my feet and whining about it, history recorded the events as I portrayed them -- the south started the was by attacking a federal fort.

You may not like history ... but ... who cares?

Radical northern abolitionist, primarily from New England, helped start the war...but behind the scenes wealthy northern industrialist wanted a tariff and southern agrarian farmers did not. It was all about the $$$$ and the constitutional issue of whether or nor a state could leave the Union.

 

[Boss]

I don't support the flag flying on public land, but private land I couldn't really care less about. The confederate flag doesn't offend me whatsoever, and I don't think it should be seen as a symbol of racism. However, it is a flag associated with a nation that is NOT the USA, and thus shouldn't fly on public land. It really is that simple.

It may surprise many to know, I share your viewpoint, particularly regarding what was a Confederate BATTLE flag and not ever a national flag. In southern states, I have no problem with national flags of the Confederacy on public property because it has a historic significance. If Florida wanted to display a Spanish national flag somewhere to pay tribute to their Spanish heritage, I wouldn't have a problem with that... If Louisiana wanted to display a French flag, same deal.. no problem with displaying national flags of historical reference.

But the Confederate battle flags flying over state capitols and in Southern statehouses, need to go. It never belonged there and wasn't there until post-desegregation as a sort of protest. I have no problem with the flag being displayed in Confederate cemeteries or museums across the South. I have no problem with individuals in public displaying the flag or flying it on private property. I think it is protected free speech regardless of their intentions. I feel the same about the Swastika flag or the Japanese rising sun flag. People should be free to express themselves however they feel.

What I object to in all of this is the left-wing radical crusade to blame the flag for a heinous deranged killing spree in SC, to infer the flag automatically stands for race hate, to insist on banning "symbols of race hate" or perverting history to make the flag into something it is not. I understand a lot of people view it as a symbol of race hate but also, a lot of people don't and they've made their viewpoints clear. Civilized society has to work with each other. We have to come to mutual agreements on things in order to function. We can't have a free and open society where only one viewpoint is allowed to exist. Sorry... that just isn't going to ever work out. We have to be able to step back from our personal emotions a bit and understand that we must be tolerant of what others think, even when we don't agree.

 

[Boss]

What exactly are some of you idiots afraid of in recognizing slavery as the key issue in the Civil War? Why does it make you so insecure?

I've never had a problem accepting that it was a key issue because it was. However, it wasn't because some people thought black folks were equal to white folks. The overwhelming majority... like 96% of the country, was absolutely racist by today's standards. Aside from a few Quaker ministers, hardly anyone believed black and white people were equal.

The issue of slavery was a completely different matter from equality. It's kind of like PETA... I'm sure some oddballs think dogs or horses are equal to people, but mostly people who support PETA are simply opposed to mistreatment of animals. It's a humanity thing, not an equality issue. The same thing applied to slavery back in 1861... most who supported abolition were not doing so because they thought blacks were equal.

It was also not about the South wanting to keep slavery. They had an investment in their livelihoods. Slaves were owned property assets.... not in their opinion, but in the very laws established by the US and upheld by SCOTUS. Now, I am sorry, but I have to blame the Congress and SCOTUS for that... not the CSA and not those who invested money in slaves. They only did what the law and SCOTUS allowed and they did it in good faith that their 4th Amendment rights to property would be upheld.