If we did not allow Muslim foreigners into the United States...........

[Kondor3]

Unk... you responding with automatic gainsay is not particularly productive.

Oh, and, I would not be so quick to claim that your love-of-country or patriotism or understanding of what America is or is not, is any better or worse than any of your countrymen's understanding, because it's not.

I've done my part for King and Country, so to speak, and I'm confident that a stance which advocates a closing of the Immigration Door for some years not only does no harm, but buys breathing space in which to recover and to regain strength.

You and I disagree on this.

But I feel no need to challenge your love of country nor understanding nor patriotism nor to indulge in Insults Light with you, just because you disagree with me.

I will, however, try to remember not to go any particular distance out of my way simply to be respectful towards you after this.

Just as well, perhaps.

After all... when you cannot argue from the vantage point of logic and common sense, there's always denigration and insult and ad hominem attack and straw-man extrapolation and the like.

OK by me... doesn't really matter all that much in the long run, anyhoo...

 

[Beachboy]

There are three things that anyone who knows me will tell you.

1). I am a distributor of of information. When I learn something new, I pass it around. No Soliciting.

2). I am intolerant of people who talk without backing up their words with facts before they speak. At work you had best not talk over me unless you are absolutely correct. I fire the ignorant, no second chances. Accuracy counts and time is money.

3). I get a kick out of making stupid people look more stupid. Stupid people should be held up to public ridicule. Said another way, "God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason." STFU.

That said, I would like to make it perfectly clear that the ideas I express in this forum on Muslims is pretty mainstream. I think it is time to begin expressing some of the stronger opinions I am finding on the internet. Make no mistake about it, Muslims are a threat to the American way of life.

 

[hazlnut]

......there would not have been a Boston Marathon bombing. Duh!

​

This is not rocket science.





.

And if we didn't allow Pollocks in, this thread wouldn't exist?

 

[Beachboy]

If we did not allow Muslim foreigners into the United States.................there would not have been a Boston Marathon bombing. Duh!

​

This is not rocket science.





.

And if we didn't allow Pollocks in, this thread wouldn't exist?

Why am I not surprised that you totally miss the point of this thread?

Unless you are trying to derail this thread for your PRO-Muslim agenda.

America knows the truth, Islam and America are incompatible. Deportation is the answer.
​

 

[beagle9]

......there would not have been a Boston Marathon bombing. Duh!


This is not rocket science.

If we did not allow immigrants into this country, there would be no Boston.


Duh!

Nothing wrong with allowing immigrants into the county, just as long as it
is the kind of immigrants that don't hate America, and are not so gullible, and don't want to kill Americans once they establish themselves here.. Then If they see they don't like this place, then it's easy (just go back to where they came from is all they have to do), and if one thinks that they are in a place that will never be what they want it to be (i.e. against their religious beliefs and etc.), then it's easy (just go back to where they came from is all they have to do), how simple can it be ? But no they want to come here it seems, and next get with those who are already here in secret, and they want to undermine this nation for those whom hate from within, but yet acting all the while as if they don't hate, so those whom hate from within, well they get these radical immigrants coming here to do all the dirty work for them I guess or are these foreigners operating alone when here ?

 

[Aristotle]

I am sick of you bigots....There are Muslims who have died defending this ungrateful country.


Edit: Am I pro Muslim? Yes. I am pro any human that wishes to advance this country to further greatness. I am so sick of xenophobes blaming terrorist acts on all Muslims.

 

[Beachboy]

I am sick of you bigots....There are Muslims who have died defending this ungrateful country.


Edit: Am I pro Muslim? Yes. I am pro any human that wishes to advance this country to further greatness. I am so sick of xenophobes blaming terrorist acts on all Muslims.

So, all of us are bigots because we want Muslims to stop blowing up our cities and killing our citizens?

The facts speak for themselves, and the American people know that Islam and America are incompatible.

The word you should be looking for is not to call me a "racist," but to think of yourself as possibly a "traitor." There is no defending Muslim barbarians.

First it was New York.
​

​

Then it was Boston.

​

But, next it will not be a U. S. City. It will be Tehran, Iran.

Muslims will learn, when America says "Jump," their response will be "How high!"
​

 

[Beachboy]

​

If you watch American television news you get the same message over and over

Militant Muslims did this...
Militant Muslims did that...
Militant Muslims did this...
Militant Muslims did that...
Militant Muslims did this...
Militant Muslims did that...
Militant Muslims did this...
Militant Muslims did that...
Militant Muslims did this...
​

After a very short time you get the message. Islam and America are not compatible.

It really is a no brainer.Let the deportation begin.
It really is a no brainer.Let the deportation begin.​

 

[Aristotle]

I am sick of you bigots....There are Muslims who have died defending this ungrateful country.


Edit: Am I pro Muslim? Yes. I am pro any human that wishes to advance this country to further greatness. I am so sick of xenophobes blaming terrorist acts on all Muslims.

So, all of us are bigots because we want Muslims to stop blowing up our cities and killing our citizens?

The facts speak for themselves, and the American people know that Islam and America are incompatible.

The word you should be looking for is not to call me a "racist," but to think of yourself as possibly a "traitor." There is no defending Muslim barbarians.

First it was New York.
​

​

Then it was Boston.

​

But, next it will not be a U. S. City. It will be Tehran, Iran.

Muslims will learn, when America says "Jump," their response will be "How high!"
​

Your such an idiot. Actually to be Muslim is not an ethnic identity so calling you a bigot and xenophobic douche is much more appropriate. Second, there are what, 8-10 million Muslims most living in Michigan. Why don't we hear about terrorist acts in dearborn Michigan?


The problem aren't the Muslims. The problem are the zealots who for political and religious reasons hate this country and believe to demonstrate change for their cause, they blow buildings up. Oh but I am sure you would feel more comfortable blaming all Muslims I am sure being logical would not be convinient for you.


I have Muslim friends who like me, love this country and hate evil. The few so called Muslims dont represent the majority.

Actually to correct myself there are approximately 10 million Muslims in the United states. Majority of them live in Michigan, and dearborn is a very Muslim populated city, so I'd like to ask why Michigan is not being targeted since Muslims are so violent?

 

[Pogo]

I am sick of you bigots....There are Muslims who have died defending this ungrateful country.


Edit: Am I pro Muslim? Yes. I am pro any human that wishes to advance this country to further greatness. I am so sick of xenophobes blaming terrorist acts on all Muslims.

So, all of us are bigots because we want Muslims to stop blowing up our cities and killing our citizens?

The facts speak for themselves, and the American people know that Islam and America are incompatible.

The word you should be looking for is not to call me a "racist," but to think of yourself as possibly a "traitor." There is no defending Muslim barbarians.

First it was New York.
​

​

Then it was Boston.

​

But, next it will not be a U. S. City. It will be Tehran, Iran.

Muslims will learn, when America says "Jump," their response will be "How high!"
​

Your such an idiot. Actually to be Muslim is not an ethnic identity so calling you a bigot and xenophobic douche is much more appropriate. Second, there are what, 8-10 million Muslims most living in Michigan. Why don't we hear about terrorist acts in dearborn Michigan?


The problem aren't the Muslims. The problem are the zealots who for political and religious reasons hate this country and believe to demonstrate change for their cause, they blow buildings up. Oh but I am sure you would feel more comfortable blaming all Muslims I am sure being logical would not be convinient for you.


I have Muslim friends who like me, love this country and hate evil. The few so called Muslims dont represent the majority.

Trying to explain common sense to Belchboy is like trying to explain quantum physics to Pee Wee Herman. Don't even waste your breath.

 

[Unkotare]

Oh, and, I would not be so quick to claim that your love-of-country or patriotism or understanding of what America is or is not, is any better or worse than any of your countrymen's understanding, because it's not.

It clearly is more clear than your understanding, judging from your own words. The words you use to represent yourself here are all I have to go on, and I have thus concluded accordingly.

 

[Unkotare]

I've done my part for King and Country, so to speak, and I'm confident that a stance which advocates a closing of the Immigration Door for some years not only does no harm, but buys breathing space in which to recover and to regain strength.



After all... when you cannot argue from the vantage point of logic and common sense...

YOU are not arguing from a "vantage point of logic and common sense." Quite the contrary. Look at the illogical conclusion you try to draw above. As for common sense, fantasizing about stopping all immigration to the US for years and years is the furthest thing from a display of common sense. You are reacting emotionally, and in a manner that suggests you do not understand America.

Why not channel all the energy generated by your obvious fear into something productive, like working toward holding our elected representatives accountable for not doing more to combat ILLEGAL immigration?

 

[Connery]

Thread reopened kindly stay on topic and post in compliance with http://www.usmessageboard.com/annou...48-usmb-rules-and-guidelines.html#post6790048

 

[beagle9]

I've done my part for King and Country, so to speak, and I'm confident that a stance which advocates a closing of the Immigration Door for some years not only does no harm, but buys breathing space in which to recover and to regain strength.



After all... when you cannot argue from the vantage point of logic and common sense...

YOU are not arguing from a "vantage point of logic and common sense." Quite the contrary. Look at the illogical conclusion you try to draw above. As for common sense, fantasizing about stopping all immigration to the US for years and years is the furthest thing from a display of common sense. You are reacting emotionally, and in a manner that suggests you do not understand America.

Why not channel all the energy generated by your obvious fear into something productive, like working toward holding our elected representatives accountable for not doing more to combat ILLEGAL immigration?

This could be still a hands tied situation for the Americans, otherwise when trying to hold those accountable for illegal immigration, because it all depends on who you are trying to hold accountable, and why it is that they do what they do, and for what reasons they do them for(?) as to whether one is successful or not in such a thing.. If they do this for votes, it's a tough call to stop them, if they do it for corporations it's another tough call to stop them. We the people could be royally duped just as it seems we are in the current and in the latter.

 

[Kondor3]

I've done my part for King and Country, so to speak, and I'm confident that a stance which advocates a closing of the Immigration Door for some years not only does no harm, but buys breathing space in which to recover and to regain strength. After all... when you cannot argue from the vantage point of logic and common sense...

----------

YOU are not arguing from a "vantage point of logic and common sense." Quite the contrary. Look at the illogical conclusion you try to draw above. As for common sense, fantasizing about stopping all immigration to the US for years and years is the furthest thing from a display of common sense. You are reacting emotionally, and in a manner that suggests you do not understand America.

Why not channel all the energy generated by your obvious fear into something productive, like working toward holding our elected representatives accountable for not doing more to combat ILLEGAL immigration?

I have, indeed, been arguing from logic and common sense for the past day or so...

The salient points are...

1. we are full-up... 330,000,000 and bursting at the seams

2. our days of transcontinental and industrial expansion are over and fresh hordes of immigrants are not needed

3. we cannot even provide enough jobs for our own people; they don't need even more low-ball bidding from impoverished and desperate newcomers to further erode their chances

4. our medical system, educational system and welfare system are already badly overstrained and we don't need fresh waves of newcomers to strain them even further

...and I've even gone so far as to draw a useful analogy, earlier, about HR Depts not hiring when their companies are already operating at full capacity and have no openings

All I get out of you in return is lightweight fluff about how I don't understand America and what it is and how I'm arguing from emotion and fear and other baseless accusations on your part.

No sale.

And I've grown rather weary of your automatic gainsay... Yes it is... No it's not... Yes it is... No it's not...etc... etc... etc...

If I were to engage in the sort of Unfounded Speculation, directed towards you, that you already directed towards me recently, I would most probably conclude that...

1. you have a personal (self or family) stake in ensuring that we keep our doors wide-open

...or...

2. you are a misguided and impractical idealist in this context

...or...

3. you are an Internationalist - a No Borders type of political creature

...or...

4. you are an ostrich-like head-in-the-sand type who cannot face unpleasant truths about the strain that waves of newcomers place upon our fragile state

...but, as I said, that would be Unfounded Speculation on my part, so, I will return the favor that you've shown me, in part, just to project an adequate defense, but without actually committing to such bald, rash and juvenile accusations in the absence of solid evidence to the contrary, simply because you see things differently than I do.

I could not even get you to the discussion table without you kicking and screaming about how unfair and wrong and foolhardy and un-American such positions (suspending further large-scale immigration for a decade or more until we've caught our breath again) were.

And, frankly, in light of your juvenile behavioral manifestations over the course of the past couple of pages, I've lost all interest in attempting anything further along those lines.

Rightly or wrongly, you strike me as a Dogmatic in this context.

For that and other reasons... I'm done with this particular exchange.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Pogo]

1. we are full-up... 330,000,000 and bursting at the seams

Can someone post the sign at the border that says "Lawful occupancy shall not exceed 330,000,000 persons"?

Who's to say what's "full-up"? "Bursting at the seams"?
You might make that case standing in the middle of Manhattan. Try taking a drive through west Texas.

You've presented a subjective analysis, nothing more. There is no quantifiable "limit".
But for a comparison:

​

Hmm... with the exception of Russia and the Arctic, the entirety of Europe seems to have missed their quota limitation flying by.

2. our days of transcontinental and industrial expansion are over and fresh hordes of immigrants are not needed

So said some 25, 50, 75, 100, 125 and 150 years ago. What makes you right and them wrong?
Again, subjective speculation. Transcontinental expansion is not the only benefit of fresh blood and fresh ideas.

3. we cannot even provide enough jobs for our own people; they don't need even more low-ball bidding from impoverished and desperate newcomers to further erode their chances

An absolute statement that again, ignores the fact that immigrants provide both an immediate consumer base and an eventual employer base. Your analogy is basically that of adding water to a full pitcher. It's not that simple. It requires looking at the new ingredient as nothing more than a load (a parasite). It leaves out the dynamics of what these people contribute.

4. our medical system, educational system and welfare system are already badly overstrained and we don't need fresh waves of newcomers to strain them even further

Again, subjective judgement. And incidentally on that medical system... check out how much of it is staffed by immigrants, e.g. from India.

Ironic that you'll protest (legitimately) against the "gainsaying" argument while yourself offering nothing more substantial than "we don't need..." and "we have enough". No sale.


(I realize the topic is religious bigotry so this is all an off topic tangent. I'm not very well versed at the bigot thing, sorry.)

 

[S.J.]

We should only let people in who want to be Americans, and whose loyalty will lie with America, not the shitholes from where they came.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Who's to say what's 'full-up'?..."

The citizens of this country... you and I... and we've each just had our say... as the national conversation on the subject continues.

"...'Bursting at the seams?'. You might make that case standing in the middle of Manhattan. Try taking a drive through west Texas..."

You DO understand that I was speaking metaphorically, correct? - with respect to our Economy and Job Market and Social Safety Net and the like, yes?

I was not referring to how many sardines we could still cram into the tin coast-to-coast before we're all as crowded-together and miserable as the most crowded urban areas.

"...You've presented a subjective analysis, nothing more. There is no quantifiable 'limit'..."

Well OF COURSE it's subjective... it's a gauge of how many sardines we're willing to cram into the tin and how overtaxed and impoverished and idle we're willing to become - all in the name of continuing to play Global Welcome Wagon.

Subjective? Absolutely. Guilty as charged. Nolo contendere. No contest.

Oh, and, with respect to 'quantifiable limit', I would say that when Americans cannot find work in traditionally higher-paid trades and industries because desperate newcomers are willing to low-ball them on a sufficiently broad scale so as to erode the standard of living for workers in those industries and trades and professions, then, we have something quantifiable to latch onto.

And, with respect to threshholds... when (practically speaking) all of your countrymen who want a job, have one, and when there are still jobs going un-filled... then... and ONLY then... are you within a phase or time-period in which Immigration actually HELPS the nation and your fellow countrymen. Otherwise, not so much.

"...But for a comparison..."

As I said before, this is not about how many sardines we can cram into the tin before we're physically full-up... it's about how many we can or should be dealing with, without inflicting damage upon ourselves or needlessly putting additional strain upon infrastructure and resources.

"...Hmm... with the exception of Russia and the Arctic, the entirety of Europe seems to have missed their quota limitation flying by..."

I don't know what that means. Sorry.

2. our days of transcontinental and industrial expansion are over and fresh hordes of immigrants are not needed

So said some 25, 50, 75, 100, 125 and 150 years ago. What makes you right and them wrong?

I don't know whether they were wrong - in their time - so that's a little difficult for me to attempt to answer. But logic and common sense tell me that a population of 50 millions or 75 millions or 100 millions in a continent adrift in cheap land and cheap resources is just a wee bit different than a continent in which no further expansion or large-scale settlement is necessary nor likely nor even possible and in which a rapidly-growing population of 330,000,000+ and continual drift towards a Welfare State is putting a very great strain on the nation.

"...Again, subjective speculation. Transcontinental expansion is not the only benefit of fresh blood and fresh ideas..."

Agreed.

I've dealt with 'subjectivity' already, above, sufficient to our purposes here.

We are now dealing with Bang-for-the-Buck... and it is the perception of many... yours-truly included... that we do not get enough in return for continuing to accommodate large-scale immigration... the cost is too high and there is no earthly reason to turn ourselves into a badly crowded sardine can just so some of us can Feel Good about how we handle this.

"...An absolute statement that again, ignores the fact that immigrants provide both an immediate consumer base and an eventual employer base. Your analogy is basically that of adding water to a full pitcher. It's not that simple. It requires looking at the new ingredient as nothing more than a load (a parasite). It leaves out the dynamics of what these people contribute..."

Don't go simple on me. Nobody is saying that Immigrants cannot (or do not) contribute to the society in which they inject themselves.

It's just that with respect to large waves of them, the equation is lopsided and that in the short-to-medium term they do far more damage than good - rather like a plague of locusts that hose the job-market and put terrible strain on infrastructure and services and resources.

Payback is usually many years or decades beyond arrival time - and we can't afford to play that game on a large scale any longer. The sooner we recognize that, the less crowded the sardine can is going to be.

Those days are behind us now, and the sooner we get our heads out of the sand (or worse) in that context, the healthier our prospects for continued success and survival.

"...incidentally on that medical system... check out how much of it is staffed by immigrants, e.g. from India..."

That's great. Any extremely highly-skilled highly educated medical professional from India who wants in, can come. Better? ;-)

"...Ironic that you'll protest (legitimately) against the 'gainsaying' argument while yourself offering nothing more substantial than 'we don't need...' and 'we have enough'. No sale..."

The difference being that I 'fess-up to subjectivity in this context; largely because the topic beggars precision, yet its impact and effects can be seen and felt throughout the nation and measured well enough, albeit imperfectly.

I'm sure that we can both find studies and surveys and figures ( a,k.a. "Fun Ways to Bull$hit with Numbers" ) to support our position and the impact upon the nation.

But that's an argument for another day, on the Immigration sub-board I expect, and I look forward to seeing you over there, for a more satisfying knock-down-drag-out rumble on the subject - although I'll confess to enjoying this one a bit while it lasted.

"...(I realize the topic is religious bigotry so this is all an off topic tangent. I'm not very well versed at the bigot thing, sorry.)

Well, look at it this way... if we ever DID act on common sense and simply close our doors for a decade or two, and if the banning were universal, that would certainly fix this particular little sideshow concern about letting in potentially dangerous Mulim-type persons, wouldn't it? ;-) < that's just a smart-assed joke, by the way >

 

[Pogo]

Can't help noticing that you've played down the whole absolute numbers game in the first, second and fourth comments, yet go right back to it in the third. Either there is a quantifiable limit, or there is not. Pick a side and stay on it.

As regards that comment #3: "desperate newcomers are willing to low-ball them on a sufficiently broad scale so as to erode the standard of living for workers in those industries and trades and professions, then, we have something quantifiable to latch onto." -- does not quantify anything; it presents an undocumented fantasy scenario. You've suggested that "desperate newcomers" are "lowballing". In effect you've constructed a strawman which you then point to as "proof". That only works if we accept the strawman.

Don't go simple on me. Nobody is saying that Immigrants cannot (or do not) contribute to the society in which they inject themselves.

--- seems like you just did:
"we cannot even provide enough jobs for our own people; they don't need even more low-ball bidding from impoverished and desperate newcomers"

-- as if the number of available jobs is some finite number that never changes, is unaffected by immigration or other dynamics, and that any additional population is nothing but a drag on that fixed number -- indeed you've just described them as a "plague of locusts", so my reference to "parasites" was not off your position at all. I wasn't sure it was fair but you've now actually confirmed it. That speaks volumes about your own bias, and how it affects the fantasy scenarios you put up as your strawmen.

Incidentally, what do you think your grocery shelf will look like once you've driven this "plague of locusts" off the farms?

That's great. Any extremely highly-skilled highly educated medical professional from India who wants in, can come. Better? ;-)

Yes. That's just an illustration that puts the lie to your "plague of locusts" dragging down the system. Except that these doctors (I happen to work with a lot of them) got their educations here.

The difference being that I 'fess-up to subjectivity in this context; largely because the topic beggars precision, yet its impact and effects can be seen and felt throughout the nation and measured well enough, albeit imperfectly.

Distinction without difference. They're both fallacies.

Well, look at it this way... if we ever DID act on common sense and simply close our doors for a decade or two, and if the banning were universal, that would certainly fix this particular little sideshow concern about letting in potentially dangerous Mulim-type persons, wouldn't it? ;-)

Joke noted, and obviously my reference is a sarcastic dig at the mindless mentality that originated this thread, whose illogic I refuse to award any credence to whatsoever. Basically just a disclaimer to address the warning about staying on topic -- which if we did that, we'd have no legitimate topic here at all.

IOW the tangent is the only legitimate topic I see here; we can and should dismiss the premise of the OP as the bleatings of unhinged hysteria.

 

[Beachboy]

I am sick of you bigots....There are Muslims who have died defending this ungrateful country.


Edit: Am I pro Muslim? Yes. I am pro any human that wishes to advance this country to further greatness. I am so sick of xenophobes blaming terrorist acts on all Muslims.

So, all of us are bigots because we want Muslims to stop blowing up our cities and killing our citizens?

The facts speak for themselves, and the American people know that Islam and America are incompatible.

The word you should be looking for is not to call me a "racist," but to think of yourself as possibly a "traitor." There is no defending Muslim barbarians.

First it was New York.
​

​

Then it was Boston.

​

But, next it will not be a U. S. City. It will be Tehran, Iran.

Muslims will learn, when America says "Jump," their response will be "How high!"
​

Your such an idiot. Actually to be Muslim......you a bigot and xenophobic douche......zealots who for political and religious reasons hate this country .....feel more comfortable blaming all Muslims .....hate evil...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the usual name calling. And some how I must be a fool for remembering that on 9-11 and the Boston Marathon bombing 2,980 innocent people were murdered by foreign Muslims.

There is nothing you can say to defend those acts. As usual there is not a fact/link in sight to support a word you post. Why do you waste everyone's time?