If we did not allow Muslim foreigners into the United States...........

[Pogo]

So, all of us are bigots because we want Muslims to stop blowing up our cities and killing our citizens?

The facts speak for themselves, and the American people know that Islam and America are incompatible.

The word you should be looking for is not to call me a "racist," but to think of yourself as possibly a "traitor." There is no defending Muslim barbarians.

First it was New York.
​

​

Then it was Boston.

​

But, next it will not be a U. S. City. It will be Tehran, Iran.

Muslims will learn, when America says "Jump," their response will be "How high!"
​

/

Your such an idiot. Actually to be Muslim......you a bigot and xenophobic douche......zealots who for political and religious reasons hate this country .....feel more comfortable blaming all Muslims .....hate evil...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the usual name calling. And some how I must be a fool for remembering that on 9-11 and the Boston Marathon bombing 2,980 innocent people were murdered by foreign Muslims. There is nothing you can say to defend those acts. As usual there is not a fact/link in sight to support a word you post.

No, you're a fool for selectively not remembering stuff like Oklahoma City and Atlanta and Birmingham, and for concluding that despite those, 9/11 and Boston have their origins in religion rather than in radical political terrorism and a random act of a culture of violence respectively.

If your thought had any consistency you'd have to conclude that the three first named events were the product of Christianism. And in that you'd still be a fool. But at least you'd be consistent.

Fat chance of that.

 

[Kondor3]

Can't help noticing that you've played down the whole absolute numbers game in the first, second and fourth comments, yet go right back to it in the third. Either there is a quantifiable limit, or there is not. Pick a side and stay on it.

I picked my side long ago. My country's side. And I, for one, do not believe that continued large-scale immigration during times of hardship is in the best interests of my side - my country and my countrymen.

"...As regards that comment #3: "desperate newcomers are willing to low-ball them on a sufficiently broad scale so as to erode the standard of living for workers in those industries and trades and professions, then, we have something quantifiable to latch onto." -- does not quantify anything; it presents an undocumented fantasy scenario. You've suggested that "desperate newcomers" are "lowballing". In effect you've constructed a strawman which you then point to as "proof". That only works if we accept the strawman.l..."

Oh, dear me, you continue to want hard-and-fast numbers...

I'm sure you can find them in the Immigration sub-board someplace, or on the Net...

But, meanwhile, feel free to ask any healthy cross-section of Carpenters or Stone-Masons or Welders or Iron Workers or Plumbers, whether or not waves of immigrants (mostly illegal) have penetrated their trades and professions on a large scale and undercut and undermined their ability to earn a living for themselves and their families.

It's not a straw-man argument... it's en echoing of widespread and common perception and experience... and I"m content to leave it within the realm of Anecdote for another day.

"...indeed you've just described them as a 'plague of locusts'..."

Indeed.

"...That speaks volumes about your own bias..."

Oh, indeed it does.

I am on the side of my people - Americans of all flavors - and not Outsiders.

Why? Whose side are you on?

"...and how it affects the fantasy scenarios you put up as your strawmen..."

I'm sure that was supposed to be terribly clever, but, in truth, it's a rather embarrassingly clumsy attempt to discredit a position through attack upon the advocate.

But... do keep trying... you may yet get it right.

"...incidentally, what do you think your grocery shelf will look like once you've driven this 'plague of locusts' off the farms?..."

I dunno. Let's find out.

"...Joke noted, and obviously my reference is a sarcastic dig at the mindless mentality that originated this thread..."

Noted, in turn, and with some potential for common ground in that narrow context.

Thanks again.

 

[Beachboy]

/

Your such an idiot. Actually to be Muslim......you a bigot and xenophobic douche......zealots who for political and religious reasons hate this country .....feel more comfortable blaming all Muslims .....hate evil...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the usual name calling. And some how I must be a fool for remembering that on 9-11 and the Boston Marathon bombing 2,980 innocent people were murdered by foreign Muslims. There is nothing you can say to defend those acts. As usual there is not a fact/link in sight to support a word you post.

No, you're a fool for selectively not remembering stuff like Oklahoma City and Atlanta and Birmingham, and for concluding that despite those, 9/11 and Boston have their origins in religion rather than in radical political terrorism and a random act of a culture of violence respectively.

If your thought had any consistency you'd have to conclude that the three first named events were the product of Christianism. And in that you'd still be a fool. But at least you'd be consistent.

Fat chance of that.

Well, duh! Why not try staying on topic?

The issue is those killed at the Boston Marathon Bombing by Muslim extremists. Throwing a distraction to Oklahoma city is irrelevant. Get rid of the Muslims and we get rid of a big part of the problem.

Domestic terrorists are an American problem, third world fanatics are not. We should have never given them an opportunity in the United States. It was a mistake, and now we know it. Foreign Muslims were given a fresh start and they blow up our cities and kill our citizens.

This is a no-brainer. Deportation and shoot-to-kill are the answers.

 

[Beachboy]

Indeed. Extremists are all the same, whether left, right, Christian or Muslim, but those hate-mongering extremists are only a small percentage of either Islam or Christianity or any other religion.
Imagine if all westerners or Christians were lumped in with the ignorant, extremist nonsense spouted in the OP.
Ignore the extremist hate-mongers that come on the forum to spread their filth.
They are irrelevant.

I think you need to come up with a fact/link to show that, "Imagine if all westerners or Christians were lumped in with the ignorant, extremist nonsense spouted in the OP." I believe it is true, only more true for Muslims. It is not just me, read this thread. The idea is, "We love you so much we are going to blow up your cities and and kill your citizens ~ then send you to Allah!"

I would love to hear what you would be saying if one of your relatives or friends had died in the Boston Marathon bombing. Apparently just another traitor to America.

The Mods won't let me show the disfigured bodies of the Marathon dead on the autopsy table.
So, here is a link. http://www.lucidtrip.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dead-terrorist.jpg​

 

[Pogo]

Can't help noticing that you've played down the whole absolute numbers game in the first, second and fourth comments, yet go right back to it in the third. Either there is a quantifiable limit, or there is not. Pick a side and stay on it.

I picked my side long ago. My country's side. And I, for one, do not believe that continued large-scale immigration during times of hardship is in the best interests of my side - my country and my countrymen.

That is, in its empty appeal to emotion, a concession of my point that you have no basis. Thanks.

"...As regards that comment #3: "desperate newcomers are willing to low-ball them on a sufficiently broad scale so as to erode the standard of living for workers in those industries and trades and professions, then, we have something quantifiable to latch onto." -- does not quantify anything; it presents an undocumented fantasy scenario. You've suggested that "desperate newcomers" are "lowballing". In effect you've constructed a strawman which you then point to as "proof". That only works if we accept the strawman.l..."

Oh, dear me, you continue to want hard-and-fast numbers...

Yes, because that IS your basis. "We're full-up".

I'm sure you can find them in the Immigration sub-board someplace, or on the Net...

Why would I ask them? It isn't their claim that "we're full-up".

But, meanwhile, feel free to ask any healthy cross-section of Carpenters or Stone-Masons or Welders or Iron Workers or Plumbers, whether or not waves of immigrants (mostly illegal) have penetrated their trades and professions on a large scale and undercut and undermined their ability to earn a living for themselves and their families.

Actually I just had some tree work done, and it wouldn't have got done without Reuben...

Last time I talked with somebody actually affected (a contractor) he was complaining that he couldn't continue his own business without his helper who had run into some kind of trouble with INS. Somehow his being immobilized doesn't exactly equate to "undercutting and undermining" this guy's ability to earn a living.

Again, it's not just a simple addition and subtraction here.

It's not a straw-man argument... it's en echoing of widespread and common perception and experience... and I"m content to leave it within the realm of Anecdote for another day.

Actually you've just denied strawmanning and then described a strawman. Thanks for that too.

"...indeed you've just described them as a 'plague of locusts'..."

Indeed.

"...That speaks volumes about your own bias..."

Oh, indeed it does.

I am on the side of my people - Americans of all flavors - and not Outsiders.

Why? Whose side are you on?

Logic. And for the third time in one post you've conceded a fallacious position. Thanks.

I'm sure that was supposed to be terribly clever, but, in truth, it's a rather embarrassingly clumsy attempt to discredit a position through attack upon the advocate.

"Clumsy" is in the eye of the reader here, because all you've separated out is the completion of the previous thought immediately above it. It's not a separate clause; it's dependent on what comes before it. Taking it out of context proves nothing.

Appeals to emotion without any logical basis, is a fallacy. Constructing strawmen out of those imaginary emotional scenaria is worthless as a basis of argument. Act all the martyr you want, that's just the way it is. Playing the martyr is just a cheap rhetorical trick to affix an ad hominem strawman argument onto your opponent. It's been tried before. It's dishonest.

 

[yidnar]

I wonder if the IRS targeted nonprofit muslim groups ?? they certainly targeted Christian groups !!

 

[Kondor3]

Thank you, Pogo... disengaging now... in my oh-so-nefarious and dishonest manner... be sure to declare Overwhelming and Decisive Final Victory before wrapping this one up...

 

[Pogo]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the usual name calling. And some how I must be a fool for remembering that on 9-11 and the Boston Marathon bombing 2,980 innocent people were murdered by foreign Muslims. There is nothing you can say to defend those acts. As usual there is not a fact/link in sight to support a word you post.

No, you're a fool for selectively not remembering stuff like Oklahoma City and Atlanta and Birmingham, and for concluding that despite those, 9/11 and Boston have their origins in religion rather than in radical political terrorism and a random act of a culture of violence respectively.

If your thought had any consistency you'd have to conclude that the three first named events were the product of Christianism. And in that you'd still be a fool. But at least you'd be consistent.

Fat chance of that.

Well, duh! Why not try staying on topic?

The issue is those killed at the Boston Marathon Bombing by Muslim extremists. Throwing a distraction to Oklahoma city is irrelevant. Get rid of the Muslims and we get rid of a big part of the problem.

Domestic terrorists are an American problem, third world fanatics are not. We should have never given them an opportunity in the United States. It was a mistake, and now we know it. Foreign Muslims were given a fresh start and they blow up our cities and kill our citizens.

This is a no-brainer. Deportation and shoot-to-kill are the answers.

Actually the irrelevancy is your faulty conclusion of "Muslim" as a causation with absolutely no evidence whatsoever. HAD your basis been that religion is behind extremist violence, THEN you would have to conclude that Okie City (et al) was the product of Christianism. That you won't do that proves your selective application.

Add to that your broad-brush fallacy that "foreign Muslims" do this, disproven millions of times over by all the foreign Muslims that do not. You could conclude that they were all done by righthanded people born under water signs a day of the week that has an S in it, therefore we should ban them. It would be equally fallacious.

Thus your entire position is complete bullshit, QED.

 

[Pogo]

Thank you, Pogo... disengaging now... in my oh-so-nefarious and dishonest manner... be sure to declare Overwhelming and Decisive Final Victory before wrapping this one up...

Hey, I don't make the rules of logic, I just enforce 'em.

Thanks for bringing a tangent worthy of discussion into this cesspool thread, however briefly.

 

[beagle9]

I've done my part for King and Country, so to speak, and I'm confident that a stance which advocates a closing of the Immigration Door for some years not only does no harm, but buys breathing space in which to recover and to regain strength. After all... when you cannot argue from the vantage point of logic and common sense...

----------

YOU are not arguing from a "vantage point of logic and common sense." Quite the contrary. Look at the illogical conclusion you try to draw above. As for common sense, fantasizing about stopping all immigration to the US for years and years is the furthest thing from a display of common sense. You are reacting emotionally, and in a manner that suggests you do not understand America.

Why not channel all the energy generated by your obvious fear into something productive, like working toward holding our elected representatives accountable for not doing more to combat ILLEGAL immigration?

I have, indeed, been arguing from logic and common sense for the past day or so...

The salient points are...

1. we are full-up... 330,000,000 and bursting at the seams

2. our days of transcontinental and industrial expansion are over and fresh hordes of immigrants are not needed

3. we cannot even provide enough jobs for our own people; they don't need even more low-ball bidding from impoverished and desperate newcomers to further erode their chances

4. our medical system, educational system and welfare system are already badly overstrained and we don't need fresh waves of newcomers to strain them even further

...and I've even gone so far as to draw a useful analogy, earlier, about HR Depts not hiring when their companies are already operating at full capacity and have no openings

All I get out of you in return is lightweight fluff about how I don't understand America and what it is and how I'm arguing from emotion and fear and other baseless accusations on your part.

No sale.

And I've grown rather weary of your automatic gainsay... Yes it is... No it's not... Yes it is... No it's not...etc... etc... etc...

If I were to engage in the sort of Unfounded Speculation, directed towards you, that you already directed towards me recently, I would most probably conclude that...

1. you have a personal (self or family) stake in ensuring that we keep our doors wide-open

...or...

2. you are a misguided and impractical idealist in this context

...or...

3. you are an Internationalist - a No Borders type of political creature

...or...

4. you are an ostrich-like head-in-the-sand type who cannot face unpleasant truths about the strain that waves of newcomers place upon our fragile state

...but, as I said, that would be Unfounded Speculation on my part, so, I will return the favor that you've shown me, in part, just to project an adequate defense, but without actually committing to such bald, rash and juvenile accusations in the absence of solid evidence to the contrary, simply because you see things differently than I do.

I could not even get you to the discussion table without you kicking and screaming about how unfair and wrong and foolhardy and un-American such positions (suspending further large-scale immigration for a decade or more until we've caught our breath again) were.

And, frankly, in light of your juvenile behavioral manifestations over the course of the past couple of pages, I've lost all interest in attempting anything further along those lines.

Rightly or wrongly, you strike me as a Dogmatic in this context.

For that and other reasons... I'm done with this particular exchange.

Thank you for your time.

Usually the want for unfettered immigration is either steeped in corporate greed and corporate control or it is needed and promoted by a government in order to displace the supposed old enemy that lies within, in which would be against a new ideological way of thinking that a government may be leaning towards, so what better way to do that this than a controlled open door policy on immigration (flooding), where as in this thinking their is a type of government whom may be in power, and for whom can somehow in it's mind get political results towards the displacement of those who would resist the goals and power of such a government, in which a government would want to now project or use these masses in order to then hold on to such power indefinitely... It's all connected I think.

This nation could very well be in a dangerous transitional state, so we must all keep a sharp eye out on the horizon, in order to see what could be coming next.

 

[Pogo]

The Mods won't let me show the disfigured bodies of the Marathon dead on the autopsy table.
So, here is a link. http://www.lucidtrip.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/dead-terrorist.jpg[/CENTER]

Uh yeah-- unnecessarily graphic images are against the rules here. Duh.

Your link doesn't go to "bodies of the Marathon dead" anyway; it goes to some blog that labels the picture "this is what a dead terrorist looks like", purporting to be the body of Tamerian Tsarnaev (although it also lists "source unknown"). Only problem with that caption is nobody has shown any evidence that the Boston bombing was terrorism. Which means your blog is as full of shit as you are, but more to the point, it's allegedly a picture of the perpetrator and his injuries from a police battle -- not a victim with injuries from a bombing.

Apparently your aim was to go for Appeal to Emotion with a graphic of a victim, as if that would make your illegitimate point work, and you even fucked that one up.

 

[Unkotare]

1. we are full-up... 330,000,000 and bursting at the seams.

I have proven to you that we are NOT "bursting at the seams" by any means. I even provided you with a chart and everything. Again, you are just being fearful and emotive. American-born US citizens are just barely at replacement levels of fertility, and without immigration we would be staring down the barrel of rapid population decline that the rest of the developed world is (and that we will eventually anyway).

 

[Unkotare]

2. our days of transcontinental and industrial expansion are over and fresh hordes of immigrants are not needed.

Thinking that the completion of the transcontinental railroad marked the end of the need for labor is about as far from "common sense" as you can get, genius.

 

[Unkotare]

3. we cannot even provide enough jobs for our own people; they don't need even more low-ball bidding from impoverished and desperate newcomers to further erode their chances.

A) Many companies have many positions they are looking to fill but cannot.

B) Many manual labor jobs are not filled by Americans for reasons having nothing to do with immigration.

C) Again, you seem to be confusing legal and illegal immigration, ignorantly if not willfully.

 

[Unkotare]

4. our medical system, educational system and welfare system are already badly overstrained .

They are not "badly overstrained," they are poorly managed and hindered by government incompetence.

 

[Unkotare]

We should only let people in who want to be Americans, and whose loyalty will lie with America.

All naturalized US citizens take an oath to that effect. It has been that way for a very long time.

 

[beagle9]

Can't help noticing that you've played down the whole absolute numbers game in the first, second and fourth comments, yet go right back to it in the third. Either there is a quantifiable limit, or there is not. Pick a side and stay on it.

I picked my side long ago. My country's side. And I, for one, do not believe that continued large-scale immigration during times of hardship is in the best interests of my side - my country and my countrymen.

"...As regards that comment #3: "desperate newcomers are willing to low-ball them on a sufficiently broad scale so as to erode the standard of living for workers in those industries and trades and professions, then, we have something quantifiable to latch onto." -- does not quantify anything; it presents an undocumented fantasy scenario. You've suggested that "desperate newcomers" are "lowballing". In effect you've constructed a strawman which you then point to as "proof". That only works if we accept the strawman.l..."

Oh, dear me, you continue to want hard-and-fast numbers...

I'm sure you can find them in the Immigration sub-board someplace, or on the Net...

But, meanwhile, feel free to ask any healthy cross-section of Carpenters or Stone-Masons or Welders or Iron Workers or Plumbers, whether or not waves of immigrants (mostly illegal) have penetrated their trades and professions on a large scale and undercut and undermined their ability to earn a living for themselves and their families.

It's not a straw-man argument... it's en echoing of widespread and common perception and experience... and I"m content to leave it within the realm of Anecdote for another day.



Indeed.



Oh, indeed it does.

I am on the side of my people - Americans of all flavors - and not Outsiders.

Why? Whose side are you on?



I'm sure that was supposed to be terribly clever, but, in truth, it's a rather embarrassingly clumsy attempt to discredit a position through attack upon the advocate.

But... do keep trying... you may yet get it right.

"...incidentally, what do you think your grocery shelf will look like once you've driven this 'plague of locusts' off the farms?..."

I dunno. Let's find out.

"...Joke noted, and obviously my reference is a sarcastic dig at the mindless mentality that originated this thread..."

Noted, in turn, and with some potential for common ground in that narrow context.

Thanks again.

What is being missed here also, is our very sovereignty as an American Nation is at stake, and we as Americans where as when calling ourselves Americans anymore, are being seen by those who are opposed within this nation, as being the same in the equivalent to calling ourselves the Nazi's or Germans right after world war two or during ((a dirty word)) as was seen & known back then, and this when we are calling ourselves Americans today by some of their thinking, and especially in the traditional sense of that word American as it was once spoken. So now here we are being chastised over it. How dare that we would want to hang on to our identity, I mean the nerve of us for wanting to do that now.

This out of control immigration is a way to water down the old traditionalist or to drown out the so called many American so called and/or accused of being "bigots" now, from whom their voices and their opinions of what being an American should be and should always be about "offends" those for whom oppose such as this now, and to continue in the way that it has no more. Hec they have made bold and outright statements to this affect, but we are to think that they mean nothing by such statements in which they make?

The nations is under attack by many differing opinions from within this nation now, as to redefine who we are or who we should be, and also by those whom want to use the immigration system to wash out or (flood) the original believers out in what they believe America is, was, and still should be in their minds. We actually could be under siege now I think in all of this.

 

[beagle9]

4. our medical system, educational system and welfare system are already badly overstrained .

They are not "badly overstrained," they are poorly managed and hindered by government incompetence.

Government purposeful incompetence is right, and government purposeful bad management is also right.... The fact that this government has engaged in the undermining of our very own nation and systems over time is an understatement really.

 

[Unkotare]

I picked my side long ago. My country's side. .

No, you didn't. You have only fooled yourself into thinking that your fear and ignorance represents that "side" because you are a slave to your emotions and don't understand the country.

 

[Kondor3]

I picked my side long ago. My country's side. .

No, you didn't. You have only fooled yourself into thinking that your fear and ignorance represents that "side" because you are a slave to your emotions and don't understand the country.

I've already had my say and will pick this up in the Immigration sub-board on some later date; meanwhile, as I said, I'm done with this particular exchange. Thanks.