Zone1 If there is no God, there is no justice

[Votto]

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.

The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.

This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

After all, if they really thought they would be held to account, they would have to be crazy to treat people that way because their fate will be far worse than those they oppressed and murdered.

 

[TNHarley]

They could just say god told them to do it. That has helped kill tens of millions over the last few thousand years.
How many atheist nations are involved in wars right now? How many religious ones?

 

[Crepitus]

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.

The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.

This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

After all, if they really thought they would be held to account, they would have to be crazy to treat people that way because their fate will be far worse than those they oppressed and murdered.

So there is no god.

/thread.

 

[toobfreak]

If there is no God, there is no justice​

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.
The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.
This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

Well, several points:

• I assume you don't mean to imply that injustice in the world is proof of there being no God.
• Injustice is caused by man, largely from straying from the word of God (whatever your religion might be).
• Religious people are guided by morality which restricts immoral behavior.
• Atheists are guided less by morality and more by ethics, but ethics are man-made, and there can be good and bad ethics, altruistic and self-serving.

So yeah, I would agree, corrupt, criminal, immoral behavior tends to be perpetrated more by non-religious people, which has always been one of the foundations of religion, that it restrained mankind from lawlessness for a more ordered society.

 

[Votto]

They could just say god told them to do it. That has helped kill tens of millions over the last few thousand years.
How many atheist nations are involved in wars right now? How many religious ones?

It is true that they may construct in their minds a god of their choosing

For example, Hitler rejected the Bible in it's entirety except for the passage where Jesus chased out the money changers in the temple with a whip. He absolutely adored that passage and ignored the rest.

In fact, Hitler favored Islam as he said the following:

‘It’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion,” Hitler complained to his pet architect Albert Speer. “Why did it have to be Christianity, with its meekness and flabbiness?” Islam was a Männerreligion—a “religion of men”—and hygienic too. The “soldiers of Islam” received a warrior’s heaven, “a real earthly paradise” with “houris” and “wine flowing.” This, Hitler argued, was much more suited to the “Germanic temperament” than the “Jewish filth and priestly twaddle” of Christianity.

But you are correct, those in Islam who think they murder Jews and infidels with the support of the Left all think they are going to heaven.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.

The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.

This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

After all, if they really thought they would be held to account, they would have to be crazy to treat people that way because their fate will be far worse than those they oppressed and murdered.

Apparently you never heard of Islam. It's an actual "Death Cult." They celebrate when their sons die fighting "infidels," with the belief that they will be guaranteed going to heaven and getting 72 virgins. Killing Islamic terrorists is justice.
Anytime the government executes some scumbag murderer, that is knowing they received proper justice.
Anytime some low life tries to steal something and gets beaten in return for their action, that's justice.
Anytime some scumbag is speeding and shooting at cops and ends up crashing his/her car and dying, that's justice.
Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Votto]

Apparently you never heard of Islam. It's an actual "Death Cult." They celebrate when their sons die fighting "infidels," with the belief that they will be guaranteed going to heaven and getting 72 virgins. Killing Islamic terrorists is justice.
Anytime the government executes some scumbag murderer, that is knowing they received proper justice.
Anytime some low life tries to steal something and gets beaten in return for their action, that's justice.
Anytime some scumbag is speeding and shooting at cops and ends up crashing his/her car and dying, that's justice.
Justice is in the eye of the beholder.

Let me amend some things here.

When I say if there is not God there is no justice, I assume that there is a general idea of what justice is based from a Biblical perspective. But as you point out, you have an entire globe of people who thinks that having a second Holocaust on the Jewish nation would be justice, something I don't think that the true God favors.

You might say that God exists in our minds based on how we perceive him to be. We all have ideas about who and what he is, but each view is not entirely accurate. The God I have constructed in my perception is the one from the Bible and not the Quran as there is no comparison to Jesus and Mohammad. They are oil and water.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.

The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.

This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

After all, if they really thought they would be held to account, they would have to be crazy to treat people that way because their fate will be far worse than those they oppressed and murdered.

Are you arguing there is no God because there is no justice?

 

[Votto]

Are you arguing there is no God because there is no justice?

No.

The mere fact that we all have a sense of the need for justice for me means that it was put there by our Creator.

And being made in our Creators image, he gave us this conscience to demand justice on some level.

 

[Zincwarrior]

No.

The mere fact that we all have a sense of the need for justice for me means that it was put there by our Creator.

And being made in our Creators image, he gave us this conscience to demand justice on some level.

Thats an interesting viewpoint I had not considered before.

 

[Votto]

I guess put another way, if there is a God who has an idea of what is justice that is important to implement, only that God can deliver it and not man.

That is not to say that he cannot use man to implement his justice, but like everything else, man falls short so he has to take care of matters himself at some point.

 

[Zincwarrior]

I guess put another way, if there is a God who has an idea of what is justice that is important to implement, only that God can deliver it and not man.

That is not to say that he cannot use man to implement his justice, but like everything else, man falls short so he has to take care of matters himself at some point.

That does assume God desires to implement justice though.

 

[Votto]

That does assume God desires to implement justice though.

Yes.

The Bible is full of this notion, as far back as you can go.

 

[Zincwarrior]

Yes.

The Bible is full of this notion, as far back as you can go.

Apologies I was not clear. I meant that mayhaps God instills the impulse in an attempt to get us to implement it, to teach us to do right as it were.

 

[Votto]

Apologies I was not clear. I meant that mayhaps God instills the impulse in an attempt to get us to implement it, to teach us to do right as it were.

Yes.

There is no question that God holds us to account to implement his justice in the world as we will all give an account. The Bible reinforces this notion time and again.

In fact, I once read the book of Enoch, a book that predates Christ. Many don't realize this, but the early church used it often as it gives startling prophesies about Christ coming even though it predates Christianity. I then wondered why it was left out of the Bible, but after reading it, it hit me. The book of Enoch was very tough on world rulers, basically letting all who read know that their crimes against humanity will be punished severely. And if anyone knows anything about Constantine, the man who helped put the canonized Bible together, he was not really a Christian as he continued to worship the pagan gods. He even had his wife and son murdered. If you were such a man, would you want a book that more or less condemns you to eternal punishment in the canonized version of the Bible? Probably not.

It is rumored that he had a death bed conversion to Christianity, however, so perhaps the Book of Enoch was instrumental in his attempt at reconciliation with God.

What is odd is, King David was the ideal ruler placed by God, but even he committed adultery and then had the woman's husband murdered to cover his tracks. But it is important to note, before this event the people demanded a human king in 1 Samuel 8, something that God lamented about and warned the people about regarding man's fallen nature and his inability to properly execute justice once he puts that ring of power on his hand. But they would not listen, so God gave them what they wanted despite the warnings.

I think that is the message of the movie Lord of the Rings. No matter how "good" you are before you put that ring of power on, it changes you and not for the better.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes.

There is no question that God holds us to account to implement his justice in the world as we will all give an account. The Bible reinforces this notion time and again.

In fact, I once read the book of Enoch, a book that predates Christ. Many don't realize this, but the early church used it often as it gives startling prophesies about Christ coming even though it predates Christianity. I then wondered why it was left out of the Bible, but after reading it, it hit me. The book of Enoch was very tough on world rulers, basically letting all who read know that their crimes against humanity will be punished severely. And if anyone knows anything about Constantine, the man who helped put the canonized Bible together, he was not really a Christian as he continued to worship the pagan gods. He even had his wife and son murdered. If you were such a man, would you want a book that more or less condemns you to eternal punishment in the canonized version of the Bible? Probably not.

It is rumored that he had a death bed conversion to Christianity, however, so perhaps the Book of Enoch was instrumental in his attempt at reconciliation with God.

What is odd is, King David was the ideal ruler placed by God, but even he committed adultery and then had the woman's husband murdered to cover his tracks. But it is important to note, before this event the people demanded a human king in 1 Samuel 8, something that God lamented about and warned the people about regarding man's fallen nature and his inability to properly execute justice once he puts that ring of power on his hand. But they would not listen, so God gave them what they wanted despite the warnings.

I think that is the message of the movie Lord of the Rings. No matter how "good" you are before you put that ring of power on, it changes you and not for the better.

Invented by Tyrants as a Substitute for Justice

Theism is a symptom of the slave morality of childish, cowardly, and masochistic peasants searching for an infallible father-figure to submit themselves to, giving up their pride and individualism. Their rulers, the ones who invented their gods, are thought of as God's agents here on earth.

Abraham was willing to murder his son In God's Name. It was maximum cruelty to put him through that extreme psychological trauma. It is illogical to call it God's mercy for stopping him at the last second, which is typical of how Theists twist the messages of their horrible stories.

 

[Votto]

Invented by Tyrants as a Substitute for Justice

Theism is a symptom of the slave morality of childish, cowardly, and masochistic peasants searching for an infallible father-figure to submit themselves to, giving up their pride and individualism. Their rulers, the ones who invented their gods, are thought of as God's agents here on earth.

Abraham was willing to murder his son In God's Name. It was maximum cruelty to put him through that extreme psychological trauma. It is illogical to call it God's mercy for stopping him at the last second, which is typical of how Theists twist the messages of their horrible stories.

Here is my take.

During the time of Abraham, it was commonplace to sacrifice your children to the gods. So, that is probably why Abraham did not think it an odd request and did not bother to even put up a verbal fight over it. And at the end of the day, Abraham was cognizant of the promises God had made concerning the future of Isaac, which would have all been made null and void had he gone through with it.

My guess is that Abraham reasoned that maybe God would have resurrected him had he gone through with the sacrifice, because he trusted God not to be a liar.

The story may seem absurd and cruel to us but back then the message was clear. God does not demand the sacrifice of innocents as other pagan religions around the world did at that time. In fact, God hates it as he later commented how he hated how the Canaanites sacrificed their children to the God Molech, which is one of the major reasons God removed them from the Holy Land.

Like it or not, the Biblical God stopped child sacrifice, so deal with it

 

[ding]

Just throwing it out there. We all see rabid amounts of injustice 24/7, most of which goes either unnoticed or intentionally ignored.

The only way to get comprehensive justice for all is for there to be a God that exists that is just and all-knowing and all powerful.

This is why I think that the average corrupt, murderous, tyrant, for example are atheists by in large.

After all, if they really thought they would be held to account, they would have to be crazy to treat people that way because their fate will be far worse than those they oppressed and murdered.

Life is unfair. Expect to make sacrifices.

 

[ding]

They could just say god told them to do it. That has helped kill tens of millions over the last few thousand years.
How many atheist nations are involved in wars right now? How many religious ones?

Are you giving props to atheist nations?

 

[ding]

That does assume God desires to implement justice though.

Philosophically speaking God is more like an action than a thing. So in that light God would be justice which is why justice exists. So when we see injustice what we are really seeing is the absence of justice; injustice is the negation of the thing that exists. Now apply this to every other attribute of reality that you can think of and that's God and that's why we are drawn to all of the positive attributes of existence that exist.

People like to blame God for all the bad things that exist but that's just man and nature. All God did was share his existence. What any of us make of it, is up to us.